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Author Topic: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems  (Read 1653 times)

mgarling_99 and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wardbrook

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2021, 01:30:20 PM »
Ok I dug the mill out of the snow today and uncovered it. I really needs a shed for it but thatís another matter.

The carriage wheel slop seems to be two issues. Thereís some side to side slop as the wheel fits about 1/8Ē smaller than the space itís in. Iím not sure that fully shimming this out would be wise as if everything isnít arrow straight on the track if they donít have a little bit of wiggle room side to side it might cause some binding. The holes in the carriage the axle pins go through are also elongated a bit which causes the majority of the slop this will be less easy to fix but is addressable one way or another. 

I pulled the blade and put a dial indicator on the inside collar looks like Iím roughly .005Ē out on the collar which doesnít sound like much but I had a friend help me with the math and I believe this works out to about .033 at the teeth which accounts for quite a bit of my run out. I played around for a long time with a paper shims at the hub and have got the runout much closer and am a lot happier with the blade guide set up now, thereís still some variance but Iíve cut it by half at least.  

I rechecked the lead and itís not reversed, if I clamp a pointer on the carriage and have it just touch behind one tooth when I advance the carriage the way it cuts when I get to the trailing edge of the blade this pointer is somewhere between 1/16 and 1/8Ē away from the same tooth. 

I spent a long time looking at the bits and shanks after this. Some of the shanks I can see some daylight under them Iím not sure if this is normal or OK or not. But the biggest thing I noticed is that there seems to be wear on the inside edge of the blade which makes sense as the log has been running into the blade. However as viewed from the top the teeth are actually skewed because of it. To sharpen this out Iíd have to take off quite a bit of the teeth as it goes pretty far back so like I said in my previous post I think I should order new bits. Iím guessing/hoping this is the root of my problem.

Offline wardbrook

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2021, 01:42:09 PM »
Some pictures of the bits you can see the daylight under the shanks in the third picture. The picture from the inside (first picture) you can really see the shiny spots where itís clearly been run into the log causing uneven wear. Seems like this might be a negative feedback loop. Something caused it to run into the log originally (this may have been back with the old wonky wood carriage) but then the wear causes the blade to lead into the log further exacerbating the issue regardless of what else I address? Wishful thinking or possibility? The corners are now square and sharp but the whole bit is skewed as viewed from the top.

 

 



 

 

 

Offline DMcCoy

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2021, 04:36:38 PM »
In picture #2 the inside corner of the tooth is dull, imho.  I use the flashlight method- shine a bright flashlight at the cutting edge of your teeth- if it shines back it is dull.  I know this may seem super, super picky but blades flex away from dull corners, much as you have described.  I think this would cause me problems cutting softwoods like Douglas Fir.
Picture #1 - I can see the shank is shiny, it looks to me that the shank itself is rubbing on the log.  I would defer to Ron on this as his experience is far more than mine, especially cutting true hardwoods, maybe it's sawdust.
Picture #4 - I see 2 issues.  Looks like you are missing the inside corner of the tooth, it happens, I have a small collection of bits that look worse.  The bigger issue is your tooth looks canted to the outside. This would definitely send your saw out of the cut and send your carriage off the track.  I wonder if your shank is loose letting the bit tilt.
I would PM Ron if he doesn't get on here in the next couple of days.
My shanks had a wider portion to help hold the sawdust in the gullet.  Yours don't seem to have that.  I would wonder if you are getting sawdust built up in the kerf while you are sawing( the shiny shank I mentioned above)
I agree with getting some new bits and a shank tool.
I will send some pictures later.
EDit;   I reread your post.  I was under the assumption your saw was heading out(away) from the carriage.  Diving into the log(?) you didn't cut your carriage?  How tight is your carriage to the blade?  Mine is about 1/4" gap from blade to carriage. You mentioned it didn't cut square.  Is the carriage lifting up on the back side while you are cutting? I had to use blocks of concrete on mine when the overhung load- log weight plus saw pressure would lift the back side of my carriage to hold it down.  Belsaw's are light weight

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2021, 05:50:22 PM »
From the photo of that one tooth, the swedge is gone on one side. If you re-swedge  the tooth will be offset and need to be side filed. New bits would be best. Clean the shanks, oil everything, pull the bits in, center the shanks with hammer and dolly and with a rounded piece of steel hammer the shank in the gullet to seat it in the saw. That should cure the daylight problem.

Offline Don P

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2021, 06:04:51 PM »
And you are running Stand All bits.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline wardbrook

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2021, 06:26:27 PM »
I did not hit the carriage mine is way farther than 1/4Ē though. Iím not sure exactly how far but itís probably in the ballpark of 1.25Ē with the way the bearing is mounted and bearing collar thickness I canít get it much tighter I have thought about adding a block of hardwood or plastic to the front edge of the carriage full length with deeply countersunk bolts to get it closer but also not matter if for some reason it did hit the blade.

When the carriage has jumped just the back trailing two sets of wheels have jumped off. As far as which way itís leading into or out of the log...The way the board cuts is thicker at the first part of the cut and thinner at the back, but the force was also wanting to push the headblocks back as stated earlier so if the log is sliding backwards the cut is going to get thinner. As seen in the level picture the outside diameter of the saw wants to cut deeper into the log while the part closer to the center obviously canít and/or itís pulling the log out of the dogs and rolling it? From the operator position itís pretty hard for me to tell exactly whatís going on and knowing something was very clearly wrong I didnít want to take very many cuts to figure things out.

Edit: Iím thinking about that level backwards the top of the saw is coming out from the log

Offline wardbrook

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2021, 06:30:38 PM »
And you are running Stand All bits.
I was going to ask about this after closer inspection today I thought so, thank you. 

Offline DMcCoy

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2021, 06:28:54 AM »
Okay, good, well not good but at least we are on the same page.
My bet is still on the sharpening.  It doesn't take a lot even in softwoods like Douglas fir or Western Red Cedar.  I'm going to defer to someone with more experience with hardwoods.
I will try and get you a couple of pictures today.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2021, 09:28:09 AM »
Looking at the bottom tooth, that will probably cut out of the log.  It's longer on the board side and it's also dull on the log side.  Some guys use a mirror on their teeth when they sharpen.  I never used it very often, but if you put a mirror on your tooth edge, the reflection in the mirror should be right back on the saw, not in an angle.

I think the shanks are okay.  I would think your sawdoc would have told you about bad shanks.  

Whenever doing any trouble shooting, I always went with new bits.  That eliminates the problem of anything with the teeth.  If it clears up, then you have to learn how maintain your blade a bit better.  Its part of the learning process.

I don't know if you have seen this booklet, but its a standard for all sawmills.  A bunch of info.

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline wardbrook

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2021, 11:12:13 AM »
Thanks all, I ordered bits and a wrench last night Iíll report back once everything comes in and I try it out. I have come across that booklet online and skimmed it I have that and the RH Hoe book saved in favorites. I need to print them both and read them more thoroughly Iíll put that on my to do list while I wait for the bits to ship. 

Offline wardbrook

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2021, 01:07:36 PM »
Well the 2í of snow is finally melted off the mill so I was able to untarp it today and get back to this project. I am about to install the new bits I purchased. What is the correct depth can you over seat them and put them in too far? I only swapped out one so far to see how the tool worked. I just tapped it in until it seemed to want to stop on its own and didnít try to force it any farther. Pictures of one old tooth and the new tooth...



 

 

   

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2021, 04:36:49 PM »
Stand-all's cost more and take more power. Some times regular bits with regular shanks don't work. Frost is one issue but there our others. You half to experiment .

Offline wardbrook

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2021, 12:26:13 PM »
To anyone that helped me troubleshoot this back in early winter thank you. New teeth made all the difference itís like an entirely different mill. The log travels straight through it without hesitation and the blade barely grazes it when you send it back after the cut. No more diving into the cut or popping the carriage off the tracks mid cut. The wood coming off it is square and repeatable. 

Thanks again 



 

 

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Foley Belsaw M-14 problems
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2021, 06:41:16 PM »
Well good for you and thanks for posting. It is very hard to tell a new guy how critical the teeth are in sawing straight. The other problems that you had already addressed would have given the same symptoms as bad teeth.


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