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Author Topic: How would you build a forever mill?  (Read 1328 times)

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Offline jay_d

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How would you build a forever mill?
« on: January 08, 2021, 01:46:36 AM »
I am looking for some input from some sawyers with more experience than myself.

After finding out lead times on all the mills I have decided to build my own. Im interested in building a super heavy unit that doesnt need to be portable with a power up down/ feed, some sort of chain log turner, power back stops and clamp.

So far i have some pillow block bearings, band wheels with rubber belts, shafts, drive pulley.
I have cooks retrofit guide set ordered and a blade lube setup from them too.

Im having a hard time deciding how much track i want (need to saw 16 6 logs less than 24 inches), how far apart to space the carriage rollers.

Also looking for input on tracks, ride on top of the 1x1 1/4 angle or weld it down flat and ride on the angle?

What works best for you? Im interested in any pointers or ideas you may have.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2021, 06:21:02 AM »
Only thing I can tell you is build it long. I have a manual mill that can get cut 20 foot logs. Much easier to roll a 16 foot long on and have 4 feet of empty track not needed, instead of a foot. Also allows the head to be moved out of the way.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline mike_belben

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2021, 08:08:16 AM »
I would probably start with buying a cheap, long framed straight truck with a bad rear or no title etc, but a good diesel engine, auto trans and a hydraulic pto with air brakes. Dt466C, cummins 6BT or 6CT is my preference for simplicity, reliability and common parts in stock locally.  The 466 will have the most belt pulleys up front to power auxilliary functions.  

This covers power unit, hydraulic unit, compressed, filtered air and tanks, engine cooling, cabin heat, radio, fuel and hydraulic tanks, gauges, exhaust, charging and starting system plus limited mobility all in one shot for like $5k or less.


I would probably cut the back wall out of the cab and put a swivel boat seat base so i could sit backward and face the bed.  I'd frame it out with a tin roof overhang so the saw head has a dry shelter to live under and plexiglass front wall so the dust, wind, noise and rain arent in my face, and the heat or AC stay in.  A nice mancave if you will.  Passenger seat removed and a storage area there, maybe even a shelf full of tools, doors locked at night etc. 



From there id buy the channel or i-beams for the bed rails.. Block up the truck on pavers and dunnage square and level with bubbles, lazer, string line etc and oil the frame top a few times then skin it in white oak segments and oil them.  Next mount the rails and square/level... Then bolt on the log bunks so they can be replaced if bent or shimmed if need.  


I would design the carriage base around the most efficient way to incorporate infeed and outfeed.  Preferably in a way that the slabwood is sorted from flitches immediately and stays close to the truck because that would also be the power unit for a cordwood saw or wood processor to reclaim that waste for income.


The rear(s) could also be removed and a pile of driveshafting and carrier bearings could extend out the back of the truck frame to run an edger gang.  The bandmill would be hydraulic off a pto so the trans could be in neutral for sawing.



Ford 750, 850, L8000/9000 and such digger derrick trucks will often have enough straight frame and lots of hydraulic gear on board to repurpose.  Altec and simonds telect are frequent brands.  I just saw a whole one go for $1500. Old trash trucks and service cranes are another.  


The neighbors will love it!




Revelation 3:20

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2021, 08:52:50 AM »
If I was going to build a forever mill, Iíd start with a non functional husk I could get cheap and get it working.  For example, the old LT70 Customsawyer uses mills about 2.5 million bdft per year and has been doing it for a long time.  Thatís pretty much a forever mill.  

An old Baker would do the same.  

Most likely the production models of other brands would as well.  

If I was looking at a circle mill, Iíd find a non functional rig and fix it up, or for a few bucks more get one that was still operating.  Hereís one in Atalanta with an edger for $7,500 and still works.  These have and will last forever.  A quick nationwide search of CL shows severel.

ADMIN: Link to CL ad removed. 

If the object is to just build a sawmill for the craft and fun of it, then I understand this isnít an option.  However, if I was wanting to get to get and running in less time and money than the delivery time of a new mill, I would be on the road tomorrow with a trailer ready to bring one home.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wonít roll, its not a log; itís still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyíre burned, and you canít fix them.  Donít burn the cookies.

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2021, 09:11:43 AM »
I would probably start with buying a cheap, long framed straight truck with a bad rear or no title etc, but a good diesel engine, auto trans and a hydraulic pto with air brakes. Dt466C, cummins 6BT or 6CT is my preference for simplicity, reliability and common parts in stock locally.  The 466 will have the most belt pulleys up front to power auxilliary functions.  

This covers power unit, hydraulic unit, compressed, filtered air and tanks, engine cooling, cabin heat, radio, fuel and hydraulic tanks, gauges, exhaust, charging and starting system plus limited mobility all in one shot for like $5k or less.


I would probably cut the back wall out of the cab and put a swivel boat seat base so i could sit backward and face the bed.  I'd frame it out with a tin roof overhang so the saw head has a dry shelter to live under and plexiglass front wall so the dust, wind, noise and rain arent in my face, and the heat or AC stay in.  A nice mancave if you will.  Passenger seat removed and a storage area there, maybe even a shelf full of tools, doors locked at night etc.



From there id buy the channel or i-beams for the bed rails.. Block up the truck on pavers and dunnage square and level with bubbles, lazer, string line etc and oil the frame top a few times then skin it in white oak segments and oil them.  Next mount the rails and square/level... Then bolt on the log bunks so they can be replaced if bent or shimmed if need.  


I would design the carriage base around the most efficient way to incorporate infeed and outfeed.  Preferably in a way that the slabwood is sorted from flitches immediately and stays close to the truck because that would also be the power unit for a cordwood saw or wood processor to reclaim that waste for income.


The rear(s) could also be removed and a pile of driveshafting and carrier bearings could extend out the back of the truck frame to run an edger gang.  The bandmill would be hydraulic off a pto so the trans could be in neutral for sawing.



Ford 750, 850, L8000/9000 and such digger derrick trucks will often have enough straight frame and lots of hydraulic gear on board to repurpose.  Altec and simonds telect are frequent brands.  I just saw a whole one go for $1500. Old trash trucks and service cranes are another.  


The neighbors will love it!
I pressed the like button because we don't have a love it button. I wish you lived closer, you could start work Monday.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline Jeff

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2021, 09:20:00 AM »
As a 25 yr long career as a sawyer in a commercial sawmill, I can assure you there is no such thing as a forever mill.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Offline DMcCoy

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2021, 09:25:33 AM »
As a 25 yr long career as a sawyer in a commercial sawmill, I can assure you there is no such thing as a forever mill.
Like the forever greenhouse.  LOL.  One old customer said to me.  "Dave the day you finish building it is also the day it starts falling apart."
Better to choose a reasonable life span.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2021, 09:28:45 AM »

I pressed the like button because we don't have a love it button. I wish you lived closer, you could start work Monday.
Thanks LL. I get that a lot but im a terrible employee! Which is odd since i love to work.   I make a better junk consulting bonfire buddy.
fire_smiley
Revelation 3:20

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2021, 10:17:07 AM »
I've got a mill design in my head that's been worked out over 30 years of sawing logs and saying "I wish whatever mill I had could do this". Nothing outlandish design wise in the whole shebang... just existing components of proven design from a wide range of manufacturers in a number of industrial applications integrated together in a way that would allow me to cut a log in a fundamentally different way to any conventional sawmill.

Thinking outside the square - because logs are round. I did proof of concept in terms of sawing pattern viability a couple years back - outstanding target recovery rates and super straight lumber was the result. But I'm not a steel fabricator or design engineer ( not how my head works) and I don't want to go to someone who is because the patent rights are where the money is, not just in a single mill that's better than anything else available until the week after when the next guy can buy one just like it.

All I need is time to tinker, or a Mike Belben to come build it for me. :D

With regards a new build: don't dick around with gas or diesel engines on your saw; go direct to 3 phase electric for power. You can keep increasing generator size as you expand the mill, and all the high capacity support equipment in the world is available second hand at a reasonable price and it's all 3 phase. Plenty of threads here about trying to get enough electricity to run equipment through phase converters, or the cost of bringing in grid power: what you never see in this place is a thread where some guy wants to convert from 3 phase to diesel.

Think about your waste streams, you need them as automated as possible as spending time on your least profitable products is not how to make money.

Greenchain is your friend... Don't try and do too much with one saw. You get a whole lot of efficiency using headsaws for log breakdown and resaws for resawing. Trying to make one saw do both is cutting your own throat at the start.

If you're thinking bandmill rig it to run on 5" bands. You can then fit 2Ĺ" for throwaways, 3" for more tip options that you can still sharpen and set in house or you've got a full performance upgrade built in from the start. Old 5" vertical band resaws are  cheap - nobody wants them - and come with crowned steel wheels etc just made for the job.
All these guys like thin bands to save on shipping them to a sawdoctor for sharpening... and half of them use  woodmizers resharp service. Same thing.

Use heavy duty hydraulic components. Actually just over build everything by a factor of 4. The cost isn't in the steel it's in the fabrication time... couple of grand extra in heavier steel doesn't cost any more to weld together.

There's a lot more points to add, I might try and get back to this.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline Jeff

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2021, 10:24:54 AM »
 I make a better junk consulting bonfire buddy.
fire_smiley

I expect you to be here 3 days early for the next pigroast.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Offline Nebraska

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2021, 10:34:41 AM »
My forever mill comes with two guys to run it, because tying up that much time and effort into building one to me sounds like another job, I  would pick the mill that fit my situation  the best, and in the time I was impatiently waiting for my new baby to arrive I would figure out  stuff.  The details I really didn't have thought out quite  well enough at the start. 
Build your log deck. Slab racks, have good ways to move your logs. Dealing with waste, gathering product.... Pallets for lumber storage, many things to do while waiting for delivery.
I understand  the sickness affects us all slightly  differently, there are many good home built mills in sevice. If fabrication  comes  easily to you, and you have a good enough place and the time,to build, then go for it.
Good luck.

Offline jay_d

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2021, 11:05:26 AM »
I would probably start with buying a cheap, long framed straight truck with a bad rear or no title etc, but a good diesel engine, auto trans and a hydraulic pto with air brakes. Dt466C, cummins 6BT or 6CT is my preference for simplicity, reliability and common parts in stock locally.  The 466 will have the most belt pulleys up front to power auxilliary functions.  

This covers power unit, hydraulic unit, compressed, filtered air and tanks, engine cooling, cabin heat, radio, fuel and hydraulic tanks, gauges, exhaust, charging and starting system plus limited mobility all in one shot for like $5k or less.


I would probably cut the back wall out of the cab and put a swivel boat seat base so i could sit backward and face the bed.  I'd frame it out with a tin roof overhang so the saw head has a dry shelter to live under and plexiglass front wall so the dust, wind, noise and rain arent in my face, and the heat or AC stay in.  A nice mancave if you will.  Passenger seat removed and a storage area there, maybe even a shelf full of tools, doors locked at night etc.



From there id buy the channel or i-beams for the bed rails.. Block up the truck on pavers and dunnage square and level with bubbles, lazer, string line etc and oil the frame top a few times then skin it in white oak segments and oil them.  Next mount the rails and square/level... Then bolt on the log bunks so they can be replaced if bent or shimmed if need.  


I would design the carriage base around the most efficient way to incorporate infeed and outfeed.  Preferably in a way that the slabwood is sorted from flitches immediately and stays close to the truck because that would also be the power unit for a cordwood saw or wood processor to reclaim that waste for income.


The rear(s) could also be removed and a pile of driveshafting and carrier bearings could extend out the back of the truck frame to run an edger gang.  The bandmill would be hydraulic off a pto so the trans could be in neutral for sawing.



Ford 750, 850, L8000/9000 and such digger derrick trucks will often have enough straight frame and lots of hydraulic gear on board to repurpose.  Altec and simonds telect are frequent brands.  I just saw a whole one go for $1500. Old trash trucks and service cranes are another.  


The neighbors will love it!
I love this idea, and i had thought about building one on a log trailer frame but this takes the cake
You could get even more crazy with a behind the cab log loader. 

Offline jay_d

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2021, 11:08:16 AM »
My forever mill comes with two guys to run it, because tying up that much time and effort into building one to me sounds like another job, I  would pick the mill that fit my situation  the best, and in the time I was impatiently waiting for my new baby to arrive I would figure out  stuff.  The details I really didn't have thought out quite  well enough at the start.
Build your log deck. Slab racks, have good ways to move your logs. Dealing with waste, gathering product.... Pallets for lumber storage, many things to do while waiting for delivery.
I understand  the sickness affects us all slightly  differently, there are many good home built mills in sevice. If fabrication  comes  easily to you, and you have a good enough place and the time,to build, then go for it.
Good luck.
Ive got a slew of parts and heavy equipment at my house and some basic welding/cutting/machine shop stuff in my shop. I do fully intemd to build a live feed deck and an outfeed deck too

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2021, 12:36:10 PM »
Yes, there is no forever mill. It is a dream mill.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2021, 12:57:31 PM »
I make a better junk consulting bonfire buddy.
fire_smiley

I expect you to be here 3 days early for the next pigroast.
its pretty far out of my usual route but i guess someday i probably ought to pencil that in.  thanks for not booting me when i flipped out on you way back jeff.  i really do appreciate this place and love you guys.  its quite the amazing culture you've built and somehow maintained here.  thank you.
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Offline Joe Hillmann

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2021, 02:03:17 PM »
What is the diameter of your bearings and shafts?  A lot of people build them with parts form surplus center but that means your shaft is only 1 7/16.  For a light duty mill that is enough but for heavy duty you will end up breaking the bearings or bending the shaft.

What ever you ride your wheels on you probably want some type of scraper/sweeper on the track as well as in the grove of the wheel.  Wet sawdust can build up in the grove of the wheels and cause problems.  Sawdust, bark and pieces of wood can get on the track and prevent the head from moving.

I would also suggest having some sort of hook that goes from the head to down below the track so the head can't tip off the track.  That happened to me, it was dangerous and did a lot of damage to the mill.


Build it with fine tuning adjustments in mind.

Put a stop at both ends of the track so you can run the head of the track.  Also buld it in a way so you can easily add an extension(mine started with the ability to mill 8 foot logs, then 13, and now I am up to 37 foot milling capacity.

The rails on my mill are about 36 inches apart.  By the time I got the blade wheels and blade guides in I only have about 24 inches of capacity.  By the time I account to knots sticking out a bit, taper and crooked logs it becomes a chore to cut logs bigger than 20 inches.  I can still cut a 30 inch log but it requires removing the blade guides and lots of thinking ahead.

If you put the bearings a couple inches on the outside of legs it would buy you a lot more milling capacity. 

Keep in mind the space above the blade is narrower than the space below so if you have a big can't on the mill and want to cut it in half you may need more room above the blade and between the wheels than you think.

The wider the cut the more blade tension you need to keep it cutting flat.  More tension means you need bigger shafts, bigger diameter wheels and bigger bearings.

Avoid using an electric clutch.  The work good but wear and are expensive to replace.  Go with woodmizers method of tilting the engine or an idler pulley act as the clutch by tightening the drive belts.

I would recommend a bunk height of 24-28 inches.  Much lower and you are bending way down all the time.  To high and you struggle more than necessary on big logs.

Plan for a way to deal with the sawdust.  When I leave my mill in place all winter I can end up with frozen sawdust 18 inches deep(and that is with shoveling out sawdust at the end of efery day milling.

I like the idea of a single engine to run the mill and hydraulics but it is probably easier and cheaper to have two engines, one on the head to run the blade and one on the track to power the hydraulics.  But then you have two engines to maintain and listen to.


If you don't plan to ever move it and have 3 phase available I would consider going electric.  Although it it much easier and cheaper to come up with a cheap gas or diesel engine second hand than it is to come up with a big electric motor and all the wiring, fuses and switches to build a big electric mill.

Find someone with a homemade mill and run theirs and try to get unbiased opinion of what they would have done differently.  If someone asked about my mill I would give them tons of ideas of what I would do differently but at the same time doing it correctly would have been so much more expensive if I had to do it again I would do it more or less the same as I did the first time.

I would start going to auctions and make friends with scrap metal dealers.  Let them know what you are looking for and they may be able to get you parts for a little more than their scrap value.

Offline Nebraska

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2021, 02:34:05 PM »
Your dream mill is in a pond, I really don't want to even dip my toes in. We are all pretty different  in our goals.  It would require  me to work it,  .....and be profitable somehow.  Now if you get a modified truck body frame mill up and running with all the live stuff mentioned here, that's  something  to come and watch....Heck yes!  8)  

Offline jay_d

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2021, 03:05:38 PM »
What would you guys think an acceptable length for the saw carriage roller wheel base would be?
 I am leaning on using 3x6 1/4 wall tube with 1x1 angle laying angle side up for tracks/bunk. Will probably tie it together with 3x8 cross pieces with the corners trimmed down to fit the track height. 

Im thinking the tracks and bunks should be around 24 foot long so you have ample room dealing with a 16.5 log, and maybe just enough to squeak a 20 foot in if need be.

Offline Iwawoodwork

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2021, 03:08:01 PM »
I like Mike Bs idea about an truck and long frame, when read that I immediately  envisioned the military 5000 gallon tanker trucks I see on the Gov surplus auction site, very long wheel base also consider the old park model or MFG home frames 40'-70', I have bee given several just for removal, plus I have two old motor home RV rolling frames that I dream about putting together tp make a long band sawmill base frame. Could use Mike B s idea about using the truck/RV motor and trans for mill power. Some of those old RV sitting around for free. I have been keeping my eye on an complete diesel pusher MH that has been parked in same place  for over 10 years, slowly turning green.  need to see if I can make a deal on it.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: How would you build a forever mill?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2021, 03:17:36 PM »
in my lifetime of building from junk i have concluded it is always cheaper if you have many years to do it, in order to collect it when the collectin's almost free. and the inverse is also true.  so if you're gonna build your own and need it fast, you're gonna buy a lot of new parts.  and before ya know it, might be approaching the cost of a manufactured piece, especially when you price in errors.  this assumes you have a place to pile a lot of junk that is not gonna ruin your social life or marriage.  mission critical that the zoning department does not have it out for you.


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