The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service



Author Topic: Wet Site R/W pine in MN  (Read 322 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sauna freak

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Location: Minnesota
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Wet Site R/W pine in MN
« on: February 01, 2021, 09:53:44 PM »
Greetings.  New to the forum, hoping to learn some things.  I only know enough to be dangerous.

I'm finally getting my property to the point where I can start contemplating some serious management having constructed cabin, creature comforts (Finnish sauna nearing completion!), trail access and gotten some odds and end under control.

Property overview:  Loamy sand grading to bog soils and peat/sphagnum.  Water table 2' or less throughout.  Southern half is ditched.  Northern half is presumably virgin or lightly manipulated black spruce/tamarack/tag alder with some blowdown areas populated with aspen, balsam and woody shrubs.  Normal cohorts you'd expect with this habitat...labrador tea, bog laurel, some blueberry on higher hummocky areas.  No brainer for my management goals of edge wildlife, small scale timber harvest for building materials and firewood as-needed on-site, medicinal and decorative plants.  Basically leave it alone other than keeping the balsam fir under control and try not to make too big of disturbances unless I desire a conversion to brushland/grasses.

The southern half gets more interesting.  It's about 80% coverage of wet-site pine.  Western half is even-age jack pine of aproximately 30 years age.  Some remnant red and white pine of 40-60 years that survived the logging and disturbance caused by same.  Eastern half is mixed conifer with some patchy over-mature aspen and jack pine.  Some real beauties of Red and White pine present of 20-30" diameter, with numerous younger trees, but not enough to repopulate the stand if the large trees are lost.  Little successful regeneration of R and W pine less than 30' in height.  Cohorts are not what you would expect in these forest types.  Largely the same as found in the boggy North of the site, with a small area of the large pine stand displaying more typical upland cohorts.  In the last 4 years, I have lost a significant number of larger Red Pine of 16-30" diameter.  Fortunately I have a good niche market for spalted red pine roughsawn lumber and have put them to good use.  The apparent cause is wet-site stress coupled with a pine bark beetle.  I have been aggressively removing unhealthy red pine and burning slash/slabs hoping to get this issue under control.  Other than suceptability to windthrow, the white pine appears in good health.  My management goals for this area are as follows:  Even age Jack pine where it's already present, coupled with some small wildlife openings and hopefully an increase in R/W pine regeneration in the openings created utilizing existing remnant trees as seed source.  Uneven age management of existing R/W pine area, with an increase in R/WP regeneration.  The deer like to use this area for winter cover, and I have ongoing uses for occasional large pine logs so would like to maintain a predominance of heavy conifer overstory, utilizing existing openings as they become available through use or loss of large remnant trees.  I'm currently harvesting the overmature Jack pine and Aspen for random projects and firewood.  I have a lucrative but inconsistent market for cabin logs and mantle pieces from these large Jack pine.  They are best kept on the stump until contracted for.  Deer are a significant problem with WP seedling/sapling survival.

How would one go about managing such a diverse and unique property?
Sauna... like spa treatment, but for men

Offline mudfarmer

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
  • Location: Upstate NY
  • Gender: Male
  • Mama Tried
    • Share Post
Re: Wet Site R/W pine in MN
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2021, 09:42:19 AM »
Lots more experienced people here that can help you out with overall plan and some of your other questions but one thing is that to get the white pine to really really regenerate one of the best things is to disturb the soil. Might seem counterintuitive but sure seems to work!

Offline Clark

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 909
  • Location: Duluth, MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Wet Site R/W pine in MN
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2021, 08:10:49 PM »
Wet-site red pine is not common nor would I say I have ever really seen any that is substantial in individual tree size or acreage. You mentioned the southern half is ditched. Are there beaver plugging it up somewhere down the line? Depending on how flat it is that could be a mile away. 

The reason I ask is normally red pine responds to wet ground by dying and it doesnt get that big growing on poorly drained sites. This makes me think there has been a change in the site.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Offline Sauna freak

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Location: Minnesota
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Wet Site R/W pine in MN
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2021, 10:11:49 PM »
No beaver damming or obstructions, although the gradient of the ditching is very gradual, so prolonged wet periods will leave the site saturated for some time.  We've had 2 record or near record rainfall years (last year was more normal) coinciding with the time I lost some trees.  It's absolutely not a typical red pine or jack pine site, but the trees present are impressive and the  over mature jack pine and some of the larger red and white pre-date the ditching which occurred in the late 1930s.  I have observed this species mix in the area of Seney Michigan in the Upper Peninsula, also on poorly drained, acidic sites with very sandy soil.  My thought is that the trees which normally prefer a dryer site are establishing on small hummocks when they are opened to the sun.  This sort of regen is present in isolated areas on the property where soil has been disturbed by a ditch cleaning that was done in the late 90's piling the spoils of peat and sand along existing ditches. The area immediately adjacent the ditches is also significantly drier than the rest of the property, supporting a very good crop of blueberry bushes. Also present in a couple of windthrow areas with R, W, J pine establishing on decayed root balls or moss covered rotted tree stumps.  I think the pines simply out-compete deciduous, spruce and fir on these micro sites given dry enough feet.
Sauna... like spa treatment, but for men

Offline Sauna freak

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Location: Minnesota
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Wet Site R/W pine in MN
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2021, 10:51:35 PM »
Sorry for the rapid fire replies, but I had an after hours call tonight and am a bit hopped up on coffee, so I keep thinking of things.

The SE portion with the large pines is my primary area of concern, both in terms of aesthetics and winter cover for deer.  I might be best to write off red pine other than using existing stock as it matures.  I am confident I can grow impressive and healthy white pine here if I can keep the deer from eating all of it, and it grows beautiful black spruce.  I harvested 2 that were easy to get at for framing lumber and rafters in my new sauna.  They were 15 and 17 inches in diameter at aprox. 40 years of age.  Black spruce regen is present throughout the stand at sufficient levels to re-populate.  Problem is, that species has little value to me for wildlife.  The overall purpose of the property is for deer and grouse hunting.  Forestry and production are nice side hobbies/benefits (I've already sold enough niche market pine, diamond willow and medicinal herbs to cover the initial sale price of the land).  Bud capping or brush shielding (I also have smooth leaf buckthorn to cut at will) WP seedlings may be practical, as access is good.  I need to read up on the process.
Sauna... like spa treatment, but for men

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 39241
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: Wet Site R/W pine in MN
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2021, 03:45:44 PM »
Can't offer a whole lot except thinning for your logs you get occasionally and thinning the younger stuff to reduce competition in the pines. Areas not growing much might need planting if the competition isn't a risk to killing them out. Eat more deer meat. ;D

I've seen a lot of natural red pine on sandy soil with heavy red clay, sand mixed in. Definitely not just a fine greasy clay in the upper stratum. You build a road across that at the right time of year and your up to the frame with your truck. In the spring time it moves like jello. :D Up here natural red pine seems to have a strong association with red clay. The only spots I have ever found it wild. You'll see a range map of it, and it shows it throughout New Brunswick. Not naturally. A lot was planted on woodlots on old abandoned pastures. In my county there are no natural stands of it. If I was to show you some wild red pine, it's a 40 minute drive to the Tobique (River) Native reservation. It grows all over the shaley rocky bluffs above the road mixed with white pine. Not in this county. There was a few scattered ones across the river by some camps to. All this ground is red, since the Tobique watershed is red soil. I've been to the far end of the province to, toward Sussex-Minto area, some down there on red ground to. I believe the site I saw was closer to Minto. Those pine in Noonan on the way down there are planted pine. ;) Some old 300 year pine up on the Nepisiquit river, I'm not familiar with the soil there, the guy that aged them never told about the soil in his interview or the news might have thought it uninteresting. They are on no touch land. ;D
No amount of belief makes something a fact. James Randi


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

 


Powered by EzPortal