Anybody seen a white pine with this many leaders before?

[HemlockKing]

This might be a record 

 

[Ed_K]

 I have one up back with 4 or 5 can't remember but it made a great tree stand , almost a tree house .

[woodroe]

Thats some prime pasture pine right there. 
I've cut down quite a few like that being on what was once pasture and field gone back to woods.
Lots of firewood in those.

[Gere Flewelling]

It looks like it's been doing its job.  Lots of little one growing around it.  There will pines in the future.  I see a lot of areas around here where there are big pines and nothing but hemlocks growing underneath them.  They need something driving around them to scratch up the ground around them and let those cones do their job.  It seem many loggers like to log in the snow and not disturb the ground.  It seems the only thing that grown then is beech trees.  I am not a pro, but have observed this around my area.

[HemlockKing]

Thats some prime pasture pine right there.
I've cut down quite a few like that being on what was once pasture and field gone back to woods.
Lots of firewood in those.

AFAIK my land has never been a pasture or farm, no evidence of logging in last 100 years from what I can tell either I’m not expert though. There are some truly old spruce, balsam(as old as a balsam will get )and pine around here. I wanted to cut it but it would be such a big bald spot in the canopy takes up SO much space  

[SwampDonkey]

All kinds of them up here. Nobody wanted them is why they are still standing. Welcome to the world of weevil and animal damage.  

[ehp]

up north there is tons of this stuff , we just called it field pine and hoped we didnot have to cut it , mills do not like that kind of pine

[Ianab]

I wanted to cut it but it would be such a big bald spot in the canopy takes up SO much space  

That big hole in the canopy is what's needed for the pine seedlings around it to grow though. Too much shade and you encourage the shade tolerant hemlock and beech (or whatever you have locally that fills that niche)

Then you watch your new saplings, and if you spot one that's lost it's main leader ~6ft off the ground, just thin it out, otherwise it's going to end up like that mutant in 50 years time. 

So personally I'd drop it, and let 4 useful trees grow in it's place. 

[mike_belben]

Thats some prime pasture pine right there.
I've cut down quite a few like that being on what was once pasture and field gone back to woods.
Lots of firewood in those.

AFAIK my land has never been a pasture or farm, no evidence of logging in last 100 years from what I can tell either I’m not expert though. There are some truly old spruce, balsam(as old as a balsam will get )and pine around here. I wanted to cut it but it would be such a big bald spot in the canopy takes up SO much space  

Places thatve been logged will have stumps and tops.  Abandoned pasture will have none and the ground is pretty smooth.  Truly old growth will have pits and mounds and evidence of big trees dying of old age or already half composted on the stump.  as well as different flora/fauna species thriving in a much wetter, mossy shaded environment from the super closed mature canopy.  Old woods is wetter year round and supports different stuff.

[moodnacreek]

It does not have to be an old pasture but in one that's what the first generation looks like. Open grown does that to trees. To bad they invented cardboard. There once was a market for w. pine almost that bad; box shooks.

[thecfarm]

There was a market for pine like that back in '93 to '96. That was when I was cutting with my father. Swampdonkey favorite company, Irving, was buying pine like that. I really can't tell how big that is, but the stuff we had was 3 feet across easy. And the leaders was almost 2 feet across too. They would buy it and cut out the knots and bad places and dove tail it. We sold them truck loads of that junk. My father came from the Old School and could not believe they would buy wood like that. He did not believe the young truck driver, my age, that they would buy that. After putting a log on, and they paid us for it, we started to chase all those ugly trees down. I can still hear him say, You can sell good logs all the time, but can't sell bad ones all the time.
We even sold them crotches. We sent some with 3 crotches too. Something else I can still hear him say, They paid us for it!!!
Some of that stuff had limbs 6-8 inches across. We would haul some of the limbs out for pulp.

[HemlockKing]

It does not have to be an old pasture but in one that's what the first generation looks like. Open grown does that to trees. To bad they invented cardboard. There once was a market for w. pine almost that bad; box shooks.

I have a lot of pines that are probably 120- 150 year old half look like bushes some actually have good butt logs up to probably 24 ft. Like I said I’m not sure if it’s been logged. My land makes for a unique spot since it’s borders coastal land/being inland, right off my property the land dips into marsh land, and a lot of my land burrows down into marsh, maybe it was sparred and not ever logged in recent times. I will get some
Pictures of the straight trunk monsters 

[HemlockKing]

There was a market for pine like that back in '93 to '96. That was when I was cutting with my father. Swampdonkey favorite company, Irving, was buying pine like that. I really can't tell how big that is, but the stuff we had was 3 feet across easy. And the leaders was almost 2 feet across too. They would buy it and cut out the knots and bad places and dove tail it. We sold them truck loads of that junk. My father came from the Old School and could not believe they would buy wood like that. He did not believe the young truck driver, my age, that they would buy that. After putting a log on, and they paid us for it, we started to chase all those ugly trees down. I can still hear him say, You can sell good logs all the time, but can't sell bad ones all the time.
We even sold them crotches. We sent some with 3 crotches too. Something else I can still hear him say, They paid us for it!!!
Some of that stuff had limbs 6-8 inches across. We would haul some of the limbs out for pulp.

Glad you guys could make a profit off these mutants c farm. They aren’t pretty that’s for sure 

[HemlockKing]

Thats some prime pasture pine right there.
I've cut down quite a few like that being on what was once pasture and field gone back to woods.
Lots of firewood in those.

AFAIK my land has never been a pasture or farm, no evidence of logging in last 100 years from what I can tell either I’m not expert though. There are some truly old spruce, balsam(as old as a balsam will get )and pine around here. I wanted to cut it but it would be such a big bald spot in the canopy takes up SO much space  

Places thatve been logged will have stumps and tops.  Abandoned pasture will have none and the ground is pretty smooth.  Truly old growth will have pits and mounds and evidence of big trees dying of old age or already half composted on the stump.  as well as different flora/fauna species thriving in a much wetter, mossy shaded environment from the super closed mature canopy.  Old woods is wetter year round and supports different stuff.

I’ve been trying to soak up Tom wessels reading the forested
Landscape. From what I can put together this land has never been
Touched. No clean cut stumps, many pits and pillows from
Old trees topping over and pulling up their root ball and decaying like so, I can’t find any clean cut stumps with no logs around, mind you my eyes aren’t trained to see this stuff really. I’m sure a forester could walk in here and tell
Me everything about it. The 

[HemlockKing]

I wanted to cut it but it would be such a big bald spot in the canopy takes up SO much space  

That big hole in the canopy is what's needed for the pine seedlings around it to grow though. Too much shade and you encourage the shade tolerant hemlock and beech (or whatever you have locally that fills that niche)

Then you watch your new saplings, and if you spot one that's lost it's main leader ~6ft off the ground, just thin it out, otherwise it's going to end up like that mutant in 50 years time.

So personally I'd drop it, and let 4 useful trees grow in it's place.

If I came across this
Mutant years ago I would of
Cut it no problem! The only
Time I leave mutants is when they are old Like one I’m picture. I might drop it once these new pine seedlings come in

[HemlockKing]

Hurricane damage 

 

[SwampDonkey]

There was a market for pine like that back in '93 to '96. That was when I was cutting with my father. Swampdonkey favorite company, Irving, was buying pine like that.

I think you guys was in favor on that deal. Irving would just laugh at us unless we high graded our woods for him.

[SwampDonkey]

I've got aspen ground that wasn't cleared by man, but fire. It had 36" aspen when they got too old by then. The original stand before fire, I suspect was cedar/spruce. Found old charred cedar trunks. Full of pits and mounds, but trees only 90 years old. I have a good idea of when the fire occurred. Grandmother was a young girl and she was born in 1900, so I figure 1910 or so. Her uncles were teamsters cutting wood up in there, and I don't know how the fire started. Dad did cut 300 cord on 10 acres on Feb 1984, at that time the aspen was 20"+, and that wasn't a clear cut. The trees grew to 90', actual tape measure. The remnants along the property line have all died off now and making soil. The maple, birch and softwood wasn't touched at that time. But has been clear cut since.  I have a yellow birch in there in the 'Great Trees of New Brunswick', co-authored by Dave Palmer. It wasn't the biggest one found when researching for the book, so just a mention in the appendix of the book. Still old, and the bark is all platy, you have to look at the crown to see the yellow bark. 77 ft in height (estimate with clinometer), not exceptional as this ground isn't exceptional soil but it holds moisture. The aspen was definitely taller.

[HemlockKing]

I've got aspen ground that wasn't cleared by man, but fire. It had 36" aspen when they got too old by then. The original stand before fire, I suspect was cedar/spruce. Found old charred cedar trunks. Full of pits and mounds, but trees only 90 years old. I have a good idea of when the fire occurred. Grandmother was a young girl and she was born in 1900, so I figure 1910 or so. Her uncles were teamsters cutting wood up in there, and I don't know how the fire started. Dad did cut 300 cord on 10 acres on Feb 1984, at that time the aspen was 20"+, and that wasn't a clear cut. The trees grew to 90', actual tape measure. The remnants along the property line have all died off now and making soil. The maple, birch and softwood wasn't touched at that time. But has been clear cut since.  I have a yellow birch in there in the 'Great Trees of New Brunswick', co-authored by Dave Palmer. It wasn't the biggest one found when researching for the book, so just a mention in the appendix of the book. Still old, and the bark is all platy, you have to look at the crown to see the yellow bark. 77 ft in height (estimate with clinometer), not exceptional as this ground isn't exceptional soil but it holds moisture. The aspen was definitely taller.

Swamp donkey, sounds like you’ve had land in the family for awhile. This land I occupy has been in my family since 1953. My grandfather dozed the path into the middle of the land(150) acres in the 1980s then left it untouched until 2019 when I started working on it. Most of the softwood I cut down is from 1940ish dating back the rings, i have about 20acres “managed” and I’ve got another 130 or so to go, I have walked 1/3 of the land but I still don’t know all of what I got, so I end up finding old BIG hidden trees every now and then. I’m about to come in on a hardwood dominate area in my land and I’m excited as I’m tired of mostly working with softwoods.

[HemlockKing]

 

 Hardwoods ahead 

[chep]

Girdle it and walk away.  By the time the babies need thinning it will have taken care of itself. Falling apart slowly with help from the woodpeckers. Yes the initial impulse is to cut it. But save the mess and stand damage. Girdle it tomorrow!! 

[SwampDonkey]

Yep, I'm with ya HemlockKing.  I've thinned about 60 acres of the best land, lost 3 acres of second growth 10" aspen to Arthur on that area that had the huge ones. I have 3 wet runs that I let nature deal with. I put the effort where the biggest bang for the effort counts, so that is probably the other 7 acres in wet land. Still waiting for the cedar to get some height on a 2 acre section. You thin them too soon, they will have green limbs down low that want to grow trees and become a mess. I'm now thinning the second time with chainsaw for firewood. It's been running 8 cord/acre harvested, but I still have not fully thinned this area, probably another 18 cords to get and I've cut 22 now. Around 4 acres, so that bumps the average up to 10 cord/acre from thinning. Did a fix area plot cruise 14 years ago on this area and was only 2.5 cord/acre. Rings are 2 to the width of your index finger. I figure 30 cords per acre before thinning. In 15 years I hope to have 40 cords/acre total, for another thinning for $$ this time. Retirement fund.

[HemlockKing]

Yep, I'm with ya HemlockKing.  I've thinned about 60 acres of the best land, lost 3 acres of second growth 10" aspen to Arthur on that area that had the huge ones. I have 3 wet runs that I let nature deal with. I put the effort where the biggest bang for the effort counts, so that is probably the other 7 acres in wet land. Still waiting for the cedar to get some height on a 2 acre section. You thin them too soon, they will have green limbs down low that want to grow trees and become a mess. I'm now thinning the second time with chainsaw for firewood. It's been running 8 cord/acre harvested, but I still have not fully thinned this area, probably another 18 cords to get and I've cut 22 now. Around 4 acres, so that bumps the average up to 10 cord/acre from thinning. Did a fix area plot cruise 14 years ago on this area and was only 2.5 cord/acre. Rings are 2 to the width of your index finger. I figure 30 cords per acre before thinning. In 15 years I hope to have 40 cords/acre total, for another thinning for $$ this time. Retirement fund.

A lot of the damage here was by katrina, I have a lot of new balsam growth(~20 year) in these "fielded" area where all of the trees have been blown down, I came though at the perfect time and did a thinning as they were starting to starve each other off, they are good height, probably 20ft and 2-3 inch in dia if i had waited another 2-3 years probably would have been too late as they would have been just tall with no limbs, I cant wait for 5 years I think they will explode in growth, might have a bunch of massive Christmas trees!
Do you have any pictures of this wetland area you speak of SD?

[HemlockKing]

Girdle it and walk away.  By the time the babies need thinning it will have taken care of itself. Falling apart slowly with help from the woodpeckers. Yes the initial impulse is to cut it. But save the mess and stand damage. Girdle it tomorrow!!

I slept on it and I think I decided I will cut it down...more on this later 
I have a LOT of OLD pine(120+ yr old I estimate) that has multiple leaders, I usually keep a old pine even if they have a bunch of leaders but this mutant is something else, it's just horrible to look at, I can tolerate 2-3 leaders but this, this has got to go.

[HemlockKing]

Looking at that trunk of that tree has me thinking if/when I do cut it down..should I try to make something "interesting" out of it?, it's not everyday you come across a chunk of wood in...that shape 

[Klicker]

Hemlokking  What part of Nova Scotia are you in.

[SwampDonkey]

I have 3 wet runs that I let nature deal with. I put the effort where the biggest bang for the effort counts, so that is probably the other 7 acres in wet land.

Do you have any pictures of this wetland area you speak of SD?

Here a 2-1/2 beaver flood area, not seeing all of it there because it is a long narrow run. This is the day I was headed cross to thin those fir out. The fir patch is part of a 3 acre section along the line. One end of it next to the Maine border is aspen mostly, I never thinned those the beavers have been taking them. The wetland was a cedar thicket before the beavers moved in and the creek was just barely a creek. When the woods was mature the creek was not above ground at all. Moving under the cedar roots.


Thinned, some white spruce on the perimeter. Back in 2008. The brush in there now is totally soil.



On the edge, where all those sedge are. Beyond was good ground where the fir and spruce are mixed with maple. That's all thinned over in there and now those fir are 30 feet tall or more. Thinned 2007. My wet places have sedge and cattails, with red maple, elm, willow and some cedars, but not thick.



Not the exact spot, but similar. This photo is probably 5 years old, so bigger trees still.



My cedar I'm waiting on. The photo is 8 years old.



And here was an area that needed planting, it has cedar slash and wasn't producing much. So now it is spruce.



8 years later. Plus 8 years since the photo.



Tending your little piece of Earth

[HemlockKing]

Thanks for sharing those SwampDonkey, you seem to have a spot in your heart for fir no?  I keep a good fir when I find one but will always favor a spruce or pine since they are so short lived. The area of fir I thinned out was just like your first photo, they were starting to starve off, some couldn't be saved, but I got a good lot of fir now I just need to wait for them to grow    That's a nice little cedar, I dont recall seeing any around here, lucky to see a hemlock, there are some more east of the county.

[HemlockKing]

Hemlokking  What part of Nova Scotia are you in.

Shelburne county

[SwampDonkey]

I like fir because they grow twice as fast as spruce, so you can turn some coin quicker. Fir lives 80-90 years up here. I have very few old ones, wouldn't be a dozen. I cut the culls down for firewood. Nice splitting, lots of heat. Spruce is a bear to split, like splitting tamarack.

Rings



I've got plenty of spruce, probably 40,000 spaced ones. I'll be too old for them to make a difference in my wallet. The planted ones are 16-25 years old, 55 - 74 more years to go for a nice log. They to are getting a second thinning. But gotta watch when you cut'm for firewood and where you're going to stack'm. The spruce bark beetle moves in fast in the warm weather. They'll make a lot of brown powdery dust and cover your basement window trying to get out.

[Jeff]

If it was my tree, I'd keep it because it is awesome.  Awesome mutant trees matter.  

[HemlockKing]

If it was my tree, I'd keep it because it is awesome.  Awesome mutant trees matter.  

Well I haven't cut it down yet but I'm going out later today and I will see how I feel when I lay eyes on it   I'm torn, I have lots of other old mutant pines I will never cut but this one is .....somethin else

[Jeff]

Cut the leaders all off level about 3 foot up and put a camping platform on it. Still awesome.

[Sauna freak]

I have one with at least as many.  Healed lightning scar (probably what topped it in the first place), carpenter ants, pileated woodpeckers, wood ducks, flying squirrels.  It's a regular high rise apartment for all the critters around.  One of the leaders broke off last year in a storm, and I counted 24 rings near the base.  It's a great seed source and nurse tree, keeping it shady, and moist, but not too shady and moist.  Full repopulation density of healthy seed/sapling white pines in a 200' plume downwind.  This thing keeps kicking out cones at a rate that seems higher than other healthy trees in the stand.  Last gasp seeding?  

It's a prime bedding area for my deer, and the grouse like to roost on a certain limb when there's snow in the air, so I treat it kind of like a meat locker.

[HemlockKing]

Decided to keep her  

Other pics today

 
 One of the only black cherrys I have not full of black knot disease



 Regenerating balsam and some pine in the back I thinned this last fall

[SwampDonkey]

Your thinning looks good. That cherry is like most up here, not straight. But I have a few in the back yard I save. I want to open them growths up on a lathe or saw and see if there is treasure buried inside. I cut one a few years ago, 54 cm and made this.





https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=47604.0

[HemlockKing]

Your thinning looks good. That cherry is like most up here, not straight. But I have a few in the back yard I save. I want to open them growths up on a lathe or saw and see if there is treasure buried inside. I cut one a few years ago, 54 cm and made this.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=47604.0

That looks good SD, good craftsmanship. I have lots of smaller ones but they are always junk. This one pictured is the only one worthy of a photo 

[SwampDonkey]

About your pine, there was a huge one up these way with 3 or 4 leaders starting about 6' up. They had to move the 4-lane around that pine. I knew the old guy who owned it, he was a woodsman and farmer. He was a great old timer. Not mentioned in the article below.

The Big Tree, Forestry in New Brunswick, and the Value of Nature ? NiCHE

[barbender]

I would probably keep it too. It has a lot of value as a seed tree, the seeds can disperse a long ways off a tall tree like that.
 Many woods you hike around here will have old multiple leader white pine like that, they were old growth when the first logging took place around 1900. The loggers just went around them. One spot I take the family fishing down on the Mississippi River, there is a monster that must be nearly 5' dbh, which forks to 2 stems about 7-8' up. The wife and kids get sick of hearing me say, "that sure is a big white pine" every time we drive by it😁 Most of those trees have had 2 or 3 harvests take place underneath them. I don't cut them down, but if one dies and falls over I certainly try to make use of it. I swear you can saw up the ugliest crooked piece of 4" knot laden white pine, and it will still behave itself🤷🏽‍♂️

[Ianab]

Here's a pretty ugly old pine that's just around the corner from home. I think it has 5 leaders remaining, one blew out in a storm a few years back. Hard to show a scale, but the limbs / leaders would be 2-3 ft dia.



 

[HemlockKing]

Here's a pretty ugly old pine that's just around the corner from home. I think it has 5 leaders remaining, one blew out in a storm a few years back. Hard to show a scale, but the limbs / leaders would be 2-3 ft dia.


(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

We call it ugly but the tree is otherwise healthy and doing its job   Probably a testament to the resiliency of pine 

[Ianab]

Pine aren't native to NZ, and can become an invasive species if they spread out of the plantations. 

So we call em Ugly.  

[tawilson]

Pretty sure this was just one little pine when I bought this place in 1993. Now it's got it's own little forest and still spreading.  I used to brushhog that area around it but haven't in 5 years or so or it probably would have spread even more.

<br
 

 

[HemlockKing]

Pretty sure this was just one little pine when I bought this place in 1993. Now it's got it's own little forest and still spreading.  I used to brushhog that area around it but haven't in 5 years or so or it probably would have spread even more.

<br(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

I say go under and limb the dead branches and have a nice shade tree

[SwampDonkey]

Never saw a straight Scots pine. Them things was brought over here before people paid a lot of attention to genetics. Probably picked seed off a tree growing on a rocky bluff that had developed a way to withstand high winds. The weevils and sawflies love'm to.

[HemlockKing]

 

 Swamp donkey, I understand you appreciate a good balsam stand, here is a stand that arised after Juan and is 15-20 yr old, I got in and thinned them last summer just in time.

[HemlockKing]

 

 

[SwampDonkey]

Look'n good.  Does NS help landowners with some $$ for their labour?

New Brunswick's silviculture program on woodlots.