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Author Topic: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing  (Read 2641 times)

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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2021, 10:03:16 AM »
Handle design has changed for the worst. Shovels, rakes, most any hand tool today is not for all day use because nobody does.

Offline snobdds

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2021, 10:46:46 AM »
Our young men are getting soft, all young men under the age of 25 have grown up with the internet their entire lives.  They are wired differently now as their curiosity is driven by internet things instead of being outside and playing in their fathers garage discovering things.  These boys can wiz their way around technical things, but outside of that...their confused.  They are losing the ability to do things with their hands.  

Boys need to get off the internet and back outside breaking and fixing thing. 


Offline DonW

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2021, 11:45:49 AM »
Handle design has changed for the worst. Shovels, rakes, most any hand tool today is not for all day use because nobody does.

Now that is an interesting and pertinent observation. I've been having no end of grief finding decent hay fork, shovel etc... handles not to mention axe handles since leaving a collection of self-preped billets behind. It's not like it was when you'd think ahead and plant your ash around the property anticipating a regular need for keeping tools in condition and then making them to suit yerself. At the same time these overly bulky handels available at the farm store, we won't even go into fiberglass, they're yet another example of a loss of refinement brought on by, for one thing poor working practices and this ever creeping tendency to over engineer, the engineering mind having a disconnection from actual working conditions. 

Offline Kim_Ked

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2021, 12:38:52 PM »



 i havent left the yard in a week, money disappears if i go to town so its best to stay home and chip away at the homestead where value is created instead of expended.  make machine, collect resource, run resource through machine, build lasting physical asset from resource, avoid debt.
I like what you said here Mike. I struggle personally with most of what you say here in regards to balancing finances, kids, time in the constant struggle to become debt free and own my house / equipment, plus also, my 8 year old also thinks he has a bright future on you tube.   We don't even have internet available at our house yet!
You did say that you haven't left your yard in a week. I envy that. I often only get a few busy hours playing catch up at home a week and always on call for the next production world daily disaster.
 I'm paid well for the constant interruptions, but realizing after years of this constant on call foolishness and disappointed family when plans always fall through that money isn't everything. However, being reliable for my boss and showing 110% at my job is also important to me. 
I'm keen on getting to the , zero debt, own my equipment and stockpile of hardware/parts. I'm literally 2-3 months away from owning everything I have with one final repair being made to my excavator that is going to cost anything!  Iv started contracting it out to a local mill with my Dad as an operator. It barely will pay for itself and may not cover repairs but my Dad will make decent money and I'm hoping to build a relationship with the customer that might turn into something more. I would love to get out of the 365 day/yr. production noise. Spend some time in the woods, some time at home and try to do more with my boy. Teaching him about things besides the internet. The world seems though to make this a dream and not a reality, I know I have a part in this as well, but my own thing just wont take off enough to parts ways with the daily grind to focus and build on it more. I know it will someday, just keep at it.
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Offline Will.K

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2021, 12:40:29 PM »
This thread has my mind whirling in a lot of directions. I don't have the skill to consicely articulate them. The trends you all are talking about are real, and negative, and cannot change without the absolute demolition of current society. But there are things we can individually do if we value the health and happiness and wholeness of our friends and children. I am 32, and not a perfect example, but I do feel like an outlier of sorts that demonstrates several things.

I enjoy manual labor and am proficient in many areas. I work hard, often, and the benefits are physical, emotional, phycological, spiritual, and practical. I have never borrowed money, have never had a house or car payment or credit card bill. I have avoided addictions to money, pornography, industrial sports and entertainment, garbage food, tobacco and other drugs, politics, social media, shopping, video games, and have overcome addictions to coffee and youtube. I work for money as little as possible, and work for myself and my neighbors and friends as much as possible. I travel constantly if not exceptionally widely, and try to spend time every day in looking and learning. I have my share of troubles, but compared to the popular lifestyle I certainly feel that mine is healthier, and more rewarding and productive to myself and the people around me.

That list is not meant to be self-congratulatory. I deserve credit for very little if any of my merits. My parents do. Someone mentioned this earlier. The example, not the preaching or whining or scolding, the example of parents is essential. My dad was and is a manual laborer, building mostly fences and barns. He took me to work with him from the time I was five or six. I was allowed to play, but expected to work too. My younger brother and I learned skills and ethics from watching him work, helping him work, and mimicking his work in our play. We used to scour the shed or the floorboards of the truck in search of stray nails to drive. Sometimes we would snatch nails he needed for a job. We drove so many nails into a big old stump that there was no place left to drive them. By the time he was seven my brother could pound nails like a man. We went into the woods and worked together all day, cutting little trees to build structures, digging ditches to divert the creeks into ponds we had built. Building dams. Building fences and rock walls and trails and bridges. By the time we were ten and twelve we worked for dad all through the summer as genuine partners in his labor. We knew what to do and how to do it. A recent topic here about chainsaw safety reminded me of an episode when a customer rushed out of his house and gave dad an awful scolding because we weren't yet teenagers and were running the chainsaw. We were paid for our work, and never given a penny of money as a gift or allowance. My mother taught us to cook and many other domestic skills. She and dad taught us a household economy that met our needs efficiently and fully.

My mom and dad taught us to read and write and basic arithmetic well before sending us off to first grade. They quickly realized that the school education was worse than worthless and after third grade I never went back. They taught us how to learn, how to study, how to observe and ask questions, how to analyze and evaluate. They taught us to love the natural world our fellow man. My parents understood what was important and taught us by example. They were not typical of most parents of their generation. They were not hypocrites, they were not lazy, and they were not cowards.

And now it seems to me that the godawful incompetence and ignorance and laziness and uselessness of young people comes directly from some combination of parental ignorance, hypocrisy, laziness, and cowardice. It is your own fault people. Not the fault of the devalued dollar, not the fault of predatory advertising, not the fault of the lousy schools, not the fault of a society that runs on addiction and narcissism and consumption, not the fault of mechanized labor. Any one of us can stand up to all these evils and more. It is your fault. 

Teach your children and grandchildren by example. Be a good example to your friends and neighbors. Don't be a coward. If "no" is the right thing to say, say it. And be kind to all these incompetent kids. No matter how shocking their lack of skills and values, they deserve love and help and sympathy, not disdain. Do what you can for them.


Offline Wudman

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2021, 12:46:49 PM »
Some pretty good points are made above.  I grew up on a farm (tobacco, hogs, cattle, small grain) in Southern Virginia.  I remember the good days when we were making bank, and then the world turned upside down in the late 70s.  There were about 65 hog producers in our local association.  I think one survived beyond 1983.  We were not that one.  College was my route to be able to hold onto the farm.  I have two sisters that went the same route.  My older sister has a Bachelor's and Master's in Agricultural Economics from Virginia Tech.  She has a PhD from Duke.  She was a Professor of Economics and an Extension Specialist with Virginia Cooperative Extension for about 20 years.  She left there to establish an Agricultural Program in the Virginia Community College System.  She is now a Dean at one of the Colleges.  She has mentored thousands of kids and helped numerous farmers on the planning side through her tenure.  College was her path off the farm while still maintaining her roots.  She has helped my parents immensely through the years.

I wanted to stay in the area.  Farming was in my blood, but I did not see a path forward for a living.  A degree in forestry from Virginia Tech was my route out and back.  My older sister and I own a farm about a mile from my parents.  Today, I piddle on the farm because I want to.  I am at peace sitting on a tractor running the Bushog, chainsaw in hand cutting firewood, or playing with the sawmill.

My younger sister also went to Tech and graduated with a Degree in Education.  She has been an elementary school teacher in the local system for the last 30 years.  Her home adjoins my farm.  

For us, college was the appropriate path forward at the time.  For my kids, not so much.  My wife and I have a combined family with 4 kids (3 girls and a boy.)  My younger sister has two boys age 19 and 20.  Today, there is "pressure" for all kids to go to college.  I see bunches coming out with useless degrees and then working in retail or other menial jobs because of their "useless degree".  Our kids took different avenues. The two older girls are in the medical field, each with technical training.  Their path forward is their decision.  There are plenty of opportunities.  The youngest is a dental assistant working toward  hygienist credentials.  She has dentists calling her offering job opportunity.  Our son is an equipment operator.  He can run about anything.  Currently, he has found his niche in horizontal boring installing fiber optic lines for Verizon.  He has had the opportunity to see the country.  He likes drilling in Florida sand better than Colorado rock.  He was in Southern California when the pandemic started and determined that place is "crazy."  He is making good money with all expenses paid plus a per diem while travelling.  He likes what he is doing and people are chasing him to get him on the payroll.  My sister's older son is in college working on a Degree in Building Trades.  His Dad works for a commercial building contractor.  The son is following in the same footsteps.  He has worked summers and an internship for the company and has a job lined up upon graduation.  The younger son went to lineman school.  He is an apprentice with the local power company.  There is plenty of opportunity ahead for him.  My youngest daughter's boyfriend graduated a year ago with a degree in Engineering.  He worked his way through school working for an electrician.  He qualifies for his electrician licensing now and could always fall back on that.  He did an internship while in school with a commercial building contractor wanting to actually learn something.  The site supervisor treated him as a "go-fer".  He told me that he spent all his time pushing a broom, cleaning up, and going for lunch.  He didn't get to learn anything of value to him.  However, when he finished school, the company hired him as a site engineer.  Guess who reports to him now?  I guess what I am saying is that not all kids benefit from a college education.  There are other avenues to success.

It reminds me of a story I read in Reader's Digest years ago.  It was under one of the humor columns.  A father was bragging on the success of his 8 kids. He said, "Four are doctors, two are lawyers, and one is a NASA rocket scientist".  The guy he was talking to said "That is only seven.  What about the eighth one."  "Oh, he is a plumber.  He put the rest of them through school."  Have you tried to find a plumber, electrician, HVAC guy, or a good truck driver lately?  Plenty of opportunity out there.......just need somebody to fill it.



Wudman              
“You may tear down statues and burn buildings but you can’t kill the spirit of patriots and when they’ve had enough this madness will end.”
Charlie Daniels
July 4, 2020 (2 days before his death)

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2021, 01:09:04 PM »
Handle design has changed for the worst. Shovels, rakes, most any hand tool today is not for all day use because nobody does.

Now that is an interesting and pertinent observation. I've been having no end of grief finding decent hay fork, shovel etc... handles not to mention axe handles since leaving a collection of self-preped billets behind. It's not like it was when you'd think ahead and plant your ash around the property anticipating a regular need for keeping tools in condition and then making them to suit yerself. At the same time these overly bulky handels available at the farm store, we won't even go into fiberglass, they're yet another example of a loss of refinement brought on by, for one thing poor working practices and this ever creeping tendency to over engineer, the engineering mind having a disconnection from actual working conditions.
One year I drove the tractor over my grandfather's corn knife. My wife sent away for a new one for Christmas and the handle was huge, I sent it back. It was then I started to see that people thought and bought fat handles so they would not break, thinking this was quality. With the exception of John Henry and Paul Bunyan you can not hang on to these clubs.

Offline DonW

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2021, 02:09:56 PM »
It's an instructive, maybe even enlightening thing, to pick up an old axe by its handle, it almost wants to hang in your grip with no effort and then to compare with the one in the Ace rack. You want to hang it back up as soon as possible just from having a look. Who'd even contemplate doing a days work with this tool after that? Rather go sit at the x-box, whatever that is. 

Offline stavebuyer

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2021, 06:48:54 PM »
If you really want to delve into it; I think you can trace every bit of our social downfall to "women's lib". Raising children takes two parents. Fathers need to serve a purpose beyond being sperm donors and paying child support. Women who think they can "do it all" are only short changing their children.

Offline BAN

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2021, 07:31:29 PM »
The workforce in the woods up here is aging no matter if its in equipment or on a saw. I'd say average age of a logger is around 55-60. Very few few cutters left. I've been training all three of my guys to be able to cut but we are the outliers.  Was on a fire last year and there were 5 modules(10 guys). Three of us were 30-50 my son of 22 and the other 6 were 60+ in age.


Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2021, 07:47:41 PM »
If you really want to delve into it; I think you can trace every bit of our social downfall to "women's lib". Raising children takes two parents. Fathers need to serve a purpose beyond being sperm donors and paying child support. Women who think they can "do it all" are only short changing their children.
The cold hard truth.

Offline Autocar

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2021, 08:44:20 PM »
In my opinion we can also blame cell phones and computers for a lot of the crazy stuff that goes on now a days. I have always told young people to think for them selves and not to let someone else do the thinking for them. Hard work that's what I grew up knowing, and mom and dad was respected not like the kids now a days if I acted like some of these folks act towards there parents today I would had my butt beat till I couldn't set down. I remember once I got my butt beat at school for running in the hall ,when I stepped off the bus dad was there with his belt I tried to out run him and found out that was a bad idea  ;D

Offline Will.K

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2021, 09:32:04 PM »
If you really want to delve into it; I think you can trace every bit of our social downfall to "women's lib". Raising children takes two parents. Fathers need to serve a purpose beyond being sperm donors and paying child support. Women who think they can "do it all" are only short changing their children.
That's a fairly shallow delve. Women's "liberation" only served to allow women to degrade themselves in the same way men already had. The problems are much older than that.

Offline petefrom bearswamp

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2021, 09:42:16 PM »
Back on the main subject, a good many guys with a skidder and chainsaw around here.
A lot of our timber is on ground not conducive to mechanization.
My dad was convinced 60 yrs ago that the youth of that time was lazy and not into manual labor and it would result in ruin.
Society has managed to survive and I m sure still will in spite of the perceived laziness.
The only time I use an axe now is my 1958 model double bit to split kindling.
The handle is great.
My 30 yr grandson is a dynamo.
I think there is still hope.


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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2021, 12:37:18 AM »
Ive taken to making my own handles.  I cant say i know what im doing but i know when my hand likes it.   
Psalm 37:16

Offline Kim_Ked

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2021, 05:30:38 AM »
The last time I split with an axe I ended up heat stroked, vomitiing and severe shivering for days. The doc said I nearly killed myself. I wanted so badly to finish it that afternoon and my wood splitter died earlier. I was just in a rhythm splitting along, I didn't think I was as over exerted as I was until I woke up laying by the wood pile sick as a dog a feeling like I was freezing to death. Bad muscle convulsions all over. I *DanG near crawled to the house. It was very hot outside that day.
I do like the physical labor when I can get to go do some but I'm not in the best physical shape and do have a limit to heat after to much time working in the sun. I do like the wood splitting though with the splitter. I usually only do it in a few spurts through the year. For mine, my dads and sometimes a bit to sell.
Its *DanG good exercise but not overtaxing like running a chainsaw is to me. 
Ironically enough, I just bought a new Husqvarna XP chainsaw. Iv been waiting for it since November. They said it should be in this week.  Just cause I'm out of shape doesn't mean I don't like to use the gear a bit and try to get in better shape when I occasionally get the chance. Plus, my Dads been running the same 2 old Jhonsered saws for years. Hell be pumped when he grabs the new XP model!
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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2021, 06:36:35 AM »
if you're peein maple syrup its time to have another water kim_ked!
Psalm 37:16

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2021, 06:42:03 AM »
the dollar being slowly and steadily ruined is at the heart of all these issues.  the costs continually rise, the margins continually shrink, the regulations continually expand.  

its an accepted truth, that there are "two ways to enslave a nation, by the sword and by debt."  well we know we arent being enslaved in open combat, but if you cant see the debt slavery then youre a fool. it is coordinated and calculated. i took action to get off the dollar when my awareness grew around 2010-12.  taking what i had then and converting it into real assets .. literally just a big hardware store in boxes in a cash-bought field with low taxes and few regs, is the only thing that allows us to do well now and it would be so much harder to be starting it now.. so dont wait.  it only gets harder with time.   we are doing well on a single $13/hr income...  and thats a medical job with an associates degree and 20 years experience.  that whole climb the ladder concept is a pure lie here.  theres no ladder to climb unless you own the ladder and exploit other people's debt leverage, paying them just enough to show up.  and i say that exploit part lightly.  it isnt the ladder owners fault if someone else is broke and takes a job offer at market rate.  matthew 20 gives us God's opinion about it. all he cares about is that the employer and employee honor their agreements.. not that you had a collective bargaining agent get you the best deal and "fair" blah blah blah.  fair is suffering for your mistakes, and not someone elses.  when government makes everything fair they are simply distributing a more equal misery to all.


the country is being conquered by decree, insurance, and money printing.  the only way you can fight it is to be out of debt, collect things that retain their value and utility without expiration, and not having anything nice enough to need insurance.  it is a very abnormal life for anyone born in the USA after vietnam.  or should i say the USSA?


as for the kids work ethic.. i dunno. i am doing the very best i can but television is a problem.  i am extreme about limiting it or taking it away but theyre already addicted to watching youtube vids as soon as i turn my back.  you can make literally millions of dollars by youtubing your minecraft or nerf wars sessions with absolutely no talent so it is very hard to tell a child that you wont make money playing games. you are lying to them.. it might be the most potential they will ever have.  but who knows what the new stupid jackpot will be in a decade.  its not possible to know how to set them up for future success anymore because someone keeps moving the cheese.

mine will not have smart phones until they buy them with after-tax dollars of their own, im not doing it.. flip phone at best and im holding off as long as i can on that. but every other 10yr old has an Iphone even if they live in a trailer it seems.. and you cant stop your kid from seeing porn on a phone of some other kids on the bus.  thats the biggest issue.. youve lost control and the ability to shelter them.   the only thing the school is teaching them is about racism.  racism and a funny math that makes absolutely no sense at all. i can sense the reprogramming that nashville is dictating and if it werent for the needed socialization, i would take them out of school completely.   the crap theyre learning is worthless, except how to behave around strangers and deal with crowds without anxiety.  


as for my family. we are free and can stay free without a handout if we avoid the pitfalls.  money has become a false wealth, if your assets were cash based they cut in half just in 2019/20 from a near doubling of the M2 money supply, so im glad i didnt have any to lose, it was already converted to stable storage.  throw in a stock market collapse at some point and a lot of life savings will evaporate.  but bloomberg and the wall street journal arent training people to see if their souls are content or if their marriages and relationships are intact.  they train us to measure all things in dollars.. that are becoming worthless anyway.  i make certain that i have few dollars because they are continually leaking.  if you had a car that peed out motor oil, would you fill it on friday to leak all over the driveway until empty monday morning? you fill the minimum until you can replace the car.. to me the car in that analogy is the wealth storage vehicle, the currency.


 i havent left the yard in a week, money disappears if i go to town so its best to stay home and chip away at the homestead where value is created instead of expended.  make machine, collect resource, run resource through machine, build lasting physical asset from resource, avoid debt.
I really like your theory.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2021, 06:45:14 AM »
I really like your theory.
thanks man.  it definitely came with some surprises and a lot of "unpaid" hard work.  not for everybody. 
Psalm 37:16

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2021, 07:31:08 AM »
I don't think it is all doom and gloom.  I'm a very educated person, could have been a business school professor at Yale or something like that.  Instead I went back to my forestry roots and am much happier. My oldest son, 22, had opportunities to basically make a grand living in various computing fields and at 16 made more money in a week than I did.  He's out working with a chainsaw because he senses an opportunity in forestry and wanted to know how to do everything.   So the work is not about the $ per se, but about learning the business.  I think many smart young kids today don't actually mind work.  Lots of the small young organic farmers are college educated couples that have no farming connections whatsoever.  

 I've not had good success hiring manual labor but think the deck is stacked a bit against kids nowadays.  If you are a poor kid from WV it is about impossible to get your feet under you if you had a broken home, I've had kids show up to work at a portable sawmill as off bearers who had no bank account, they had to carpool with the one kid that had a drivers license.  They can't get a drivers license because they don't have a house, they cant get a house because they don't have ID, etc etc.  They'd all carpool and then cash checks, they were not good workers but the overhead to getting them to be a good worker was as much work as teaching them how to offbear.  A lot of overhead for a 1 week gig.  Too much.  A couple would have been ok I think with some mentoring and maturity.  


In some ways large immigrant networks are more supportive than our own communities.  Speaking of which.  Why in the heck did we try to stop immigration?  The only large group of people wanting manual labor and we build a wall to keep them out??? .  I just did not get that, in the near future we'll be looking for some manual labor and we're dreading but we'll deal with it.
Liking Walnut


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old chainsaw & manual

Started by KamHillbilly on Chainsaws

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Last post January 04, 2018, 09:41:20 AM
by KamHillbilly
xx
Chainsaw milling manual

Started by Rail-O-Matic on Sawmills and Milling

3 Replies
1916 Views
Last post November 03, 2006, 03:06:54 AM
by Rail-O-Matic
xx
Manual for a Pioneer/Partner P39 Chainsaw

Started by whataboutbob on Chainsaws

5 Replies
6551 Views
Last post January 24, 2009, 01:26:27 PM
by whataboutbob
xx
Stihl Chainsaw Manual, sprocket sources - for MS 241C?

Started by kantuckid on Chainsaws

3 Replies
722 Views
Last post January 14, 2016, 05:54:40 PM
by Texas-Jim
 


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