please help...hire forester or not?

[rank]

Consulting Foresters generally push for lump sum sealed bid. Is your forester an independent consulting forester or a mill employed procurement forester?

I've spoken to two and neither are employed by a mill I think they are private.  Both were recommended by neighbors who own woodlots. 

[mike_belben]

I have 5 saws, 18 farm tractors, 3 highway tractors, 4 flatbed trailers with stake pockets, a CDL but no time .  

I understand.  Youve only got one life to live.  Just gotta make the best of it and not get hung up on the little details.  


Regarding hardwood forests theres sorta two ways to manage them.  One is based on me me me and the other is based on the forest forest forest.. Obviously one can straddle the two extremes, and Naturally.. most people are strapped for cash and all are influenced by their self interest.  

Humans and forests have mismatched lifecycles so theres always the concept of where does the owners lifecycle fall in relation to the forest's?  

A take-the-best-now approach ..aka highgrade...is, in my opinion, ME based.  Precisely as stavebuyer explained, it leads to continually declining subsequent harvests until the "forest" that remains is a tree covered wasteland of solar unproductivity with no clear reset date. Its just a perpetual decline and shift to other organic matter without any market demand.  These are routinely subdivided.  If you dont like mcmansions you better be teaching good forestry!  Productive land stays producing and fallow land gets asphalt.  


With managment type 1, the first payout is the best however these are rarely done at peak maturity potential so its not that great.. Because there simply are no magnificent forests waiting to be discovered and logged off anymore.  The old growth is extinct and whats standing is meh.. Average.   So a me harvest produces less money over the life cycle of the stand for the lifecycle of the owner however what ever it does produce is assured to be available while the owner is living. It does not consider ones posterity or the unborn stranger.  one in the hand, settle for less, take what you can get and dont worry about tomorrow type of "management."  Im not judging, its a freeish country.

Thats not management though.. There are no inputs like planting cover crop or liming or manuring or fertilizing for next season like a short rotation crop. Or even learning about trees.  A person who employs high grading practices only knows about the money.  

Highgrade harvest is a purely extractive activity.  I like loggers just fine but theyre cutters, not managers. Its a profession centered on efficient extaction and marketing. It isnt their job to weed your flowerbed so to speak and i would not ask them to.



The other management style is what that landowner guide i linked is about.  It is focused more on the forests gain than its owners immediate gain, and is how one arrives at that "society grows great" quote.  It is for people who somehow dont need money but do need to feel they have done right by the future generation or the stand itself or the planet or whatever their reasonings. I know only ONE standing forest with mature noble species that is not being cut and it is a 3rd gen farm trust where the farmers were the forest managers.  And it is INCREDIBLE to stand in.  Just magnificent.  Twice the ceiling height of the adjoining forests. 5 logs to a limb.. Straight.  Beautiful.  And extremely valuable.

In this situation youre initial harvests are literally weeding operations.  They are labor inputs with no immediate reward.  The rewards are tremendous, but may not go in the accounting ledger until the unborn have houses. It produces an entire stand of supreme winners that are harvested all at once at staggering per/acre volumes of prime fiber.  Then the cycle starts over in an explosion of solar regen.. A sappling jungle of tall thin competitors rqces up like a starter pistol just went off.  

No one really does this and thats why its almost just a fantasy about old men planting trees for after they depart.  


You get to choose, but you dont get to go back and unchoose if you end up cutting the winners first. Its forever as far as your lifetime is concerned.


For those that seem capable, as you do, i advocate for the management of your own forest, no matter how small, with a goal of perfection.  It feels better than the money it will bring...a relaxing free hobby right in your own yard.  The thing i reserve for myself as a day off when im burned out on everyone and everything else.  There is no narrow market timing window on management type 2.  It will sit and wait patiently for you.  Little here, little there is fine. Day by day the results unfold.

[rank]

"..... In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond."

What is the solution to this?  Cut some trees every 5 years once the canopy closes? Sounds like this is the purpose of a basal area cut.  Also sounds like a DIY job because not many loggers would want such a small job?
 
EDIT: Sorry I screwed the quote function up

[mike_belben]

Whatever happens, there is no way I am going to let this untouched forest turn into what I saw at the old high grade job yesterday.  

Amen!

[mike_belben]

"..... In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond."

What is the solution to this?  Cut some trees every 5 years once the canopy closes? Sounds like this is the purpose of a basal area cut.  Also sounds like a DIY job because not many loggers would want such a small job?
 
EDIT: Sorry I screwed the quote function up

It is easy to do.  There are some glitches you will get used to in time.  Losing lengthy posts before you finish is the most chaffing.


Youve gotta get an eye for which trees are responding to release and which arent. Remove the losers.


When youve got enough light in to support continual replacement, You wont be able to walk through the regen.  There will be some degradation of the remaining mature trees from epicormic branching and that takes some time to figure out how to deal with, how to minimize etc. 


Not all trees will sprout trunk branching when released -for whatever reason- so when possible you want to favor keeping those, as they are more likely to produce a veener than any other.

[rank]

The other management style is what that landowner guide i linked is about.  It is focused more on the forests gain than its owners immediate gain....... It is for people who somehow dont need money but do need to feel they have done right by the future generation or the stand itself

This one is me.  With firewood at $400/cord, and approx 400 acres of wooded land and probably 10 miles of fence row trees, I literally could generate $20,000+ per year for the rest of my life just from selling deadfall and culls. Ruining a forest for a couple extra bucks is not a priority.

[mike_belben]

 

[Clark]

What is the solution to this?  Cut some trees every 5 years once the canopy closes? Sounds like this is the purpose of a basal area cut.  Also sounds like a DIY job because not many loggers would want such a small job?

If you aren't managing trees with some amount of shade tolerance then you can't fix that issue. What has been said here is largely true, suppressed and poorly formed trees hanging out in the mid-story are not typically any younger than the overstory trees. However, if you can get into the site repeatedly (every 12-20 years) and create small canopy gaps the shade tolerant species can fill those in.

This has been done in northern hardwoods, oak/hickory forests, white pine and even western conifers (to a lesser extent). The key is to create a gap large enough to allow sunlight in but not so large that it is a miniature clear cut. In northern hardwoods that is often ~1/10th to 1/5th of an acre in size. The size of that gap is similar in size to several overstory tree canopies.

Clark

[Hogdaddy]

I  get all what been said here, a lot of good advice. And I appreciate Rank's desire to do the right thig... but, you can over complicate anything, and you can just keep getting opinons in a public forum.

The logger that has been working with him seems ok, good references, good history... he's probably ok after checking him out. The forestor is not a bad idea either, get those two to come together and let it happen.

All I'm saying, is that Rank sounds like a intelligent,sucessful guy with a lot going on... just don't let it stress you out.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Why would you sell sawlogs on weight? Where is the incentive to cut and buck for higher grades. By weight a #3 is worth the same as a #1 to landowner. 
When I was buying logs for the sawmill if somebody wanted me to buy on weight I would have taken the #3 price per mbf and converted it to $/ton  and bought everything at that price. Because without looking at each log I would have to assume they were the worst. Then I would unload the load and my eyes would light up at the #1 logs bought a rock bottom price. 

[Ianab]

In this situation youre initial harvests are literally weeding operations.  They are labor inputs with no immediate reward.  The rewards are tremendous, but may not go in the accounting ledger until the unborn have houses. It produces an entire stand of supreme winners that are harvested all at once at staggering per/acre volumes of prime fiber.  Then the cycle starts over in an explosion of solar regen.. A sappling jungle of tall thin competitors rqces up like a starter pistol just went of

That's how things were managed in Europe / Japan etc in days gone by. The forest plan extended over 100+ years. Sugi (Japanese cedar) was tended and harvested / thinned over the years so they actually ended up with the 200 year old giants. So they might have started out with 500 trees in a stand, and remove a few each generation until finally harvesting the final (and best) of them. 

But it takes a very long term view to manage a forest for your grand kids retirement fund. 

It's interesting studying the different forest dynamics over time, and how human action changes things (for better or worse depending on your point of view) . The species, dynamics and development of the local native forests are very different to the Nth American types. The areas that have never been harvested (mostly National Parks) are basically "pre-human intervention". If the land is clearcut and left alone (doesn't happen any more) it will soon regenerate "A forest". Like Mike describes, saplings will sprout up into a veritable jungle of new growth, but it will be completely different composition to the original forest. Faster growing and full sun loving species will soon form a canopy, but none of the big shade tolerant species, that actually need the shelter of an established forest to even get started. 

The climax forest locally is shade tolerant species that can live for decades as suppressed saplings under the canopy. Then when an old tree dies / falls it opens a light tunnel, and those saplings that are now 10-15ft tall have a head-start on the faster growing light lovers. There are some species that straddle the divide, and can be early colonisers AND climax forest trees as well. 

So there is an area of forest (now a State Park), where ~1/2 was logged maybe 60 years ago. Before the logging of native species was heavily regulated. So you drive down' the road and through this lush forest, thick with trees and lots of bird life, so a pretty cool forest. But no big trees towering out of the canopy, and nothing worth harvesting. Get around a corner and you drive into the untouched area, and there are centuries old Rimu that might be ~70ft to the first branch and 4ft DBH. That's what the loggers harvested from the other area. 

Will the logged forest recover? Of course, the rimu saplings will be sprouting under the canopy there now. Give it another 500 years and you probably wont tell them apart. But the management strategy between the NZ and US "native" forest would be very different. 

And that's why NZ went to plantation forestry. The local species simply grow too slowly. 3-400 years for a Rimu or Kauri to mature. Beautiful wood, but ain't no body got time for that.:D  Mixed blessing, as we have plenty of Radiata Pine to build houses / make paper / sell to China etc. So "Forestry" is a significant industry here. But the real nice Native woods are hard to come by and expensive. They can still be harvested by permit from private land, but that's not a large area of forest, and with a 200+ growth cycle, your sustained management plan can't cut many tree per year. I believe a local guy had 1,000 acres, and his management plan was about 5 trees a year. Mill in the bush with a Lucas and get the boards hauled out by chopper. That was all he needed to live on. 

That sort of stuff is why "Forestry" differs from "Logging". The fields overlap, but the priorities are different. Also you don't need a Degree to learn about forestry for your own personal enlightenment / forest management. You need a degree if you want to actually Work as a Forester, but if you want to just learn the subject to better manage your own trees, go for it. 

[Ianab]

Why would you sell sawlogs on weight? Where is the incentive to cut and buck for higher grades. By weight a #3 is worth the same as a #1 to landowner.

True, only works if the logs are sorted and graded before they go on the truck. If you have different grades and species, who knows what's really in the load? Could be $50 a ton firewood, or $250 a ton #1 saw logs. 

Locally logs are sold by the ton, but it's all pine, and each load will be a certain grade. Sorting happens at the landing, then the loads go to whoever is paying best for that grade on that week. 

Not going to happen with a small harvest of mixed species. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

It would be hard to get an entire load of one species and grade to make a truck load in a mixed northern hardwoods stand especially in warm weather when mold and stain happens quickly. So loads would almost certainly be mixed species and grades making it nearly impossible to sell by weight. 

[mike_belben]

No sense swimming against the tide.  Deviating from normal practices will likely cause buyers to pad their risk with lower rates to offset the potential for conversion error.

[rank]

Why would you sell sawlogs on weight?

Because I don't trust BDFT estimates.  For all I know, the Forester knows the Logger and they work together to under estimate the BDFT and split the profit.  Once the trees are painted and the Logger(s) bid on the job knowing the logs will be weighed across an independent scale certified by the Dept of Weights and Measures, there is no more tree selection to be done.  Yes there might be different species and different grades but can't they factor that into their bid when they walk through?  Cut, weigh, pay.  I have done the same when buying standing hay...I estimate 200 bales of alfalfa here and 50 bales of grass.  The alfalfa bales will weigh about 800 lbs and the grass will weigh about 850 and I offer accordingly.

Am I missing something?

[Skeans1]

@rank 
Out here our scale is done by a third party from the mills and loggers, normally most of us work on a split or percentage it's not common to see someone buy wood ahead of time. We'll see weight out here when a mill has a guaranteed amount of wood say 1/2 million board feet or something or a certain amount per day with x amount of random roll out scaled load per day.

[rank]

@rank
Out here our scale is done by a third party from the mills and loggers, normally most of us work on a split or percentage it's not common to see someone buy wood ahead of time. We'll see weight out here when a mill has a guaranteed amount of wood say 1/2 million board feet or something or a certain amount per day with x amount of random roll out scaled load per day.

Yes I know an independent Forester is supposed to be independent but there is many a slip between the cup and the lip.

[Skeans1]

@rank
Out here our scale is done by a third party from the mills and loggers, normally most of us work on a split or percentage it's not common to see someone buy wood ahead of time. We'll see weight out here when a mill has a guaranteed amount of wood say 1/2 million board feet or something or a certain amount per day with x amount of random roll out scaled load per day.

Yes I know an independent Forester is supposed to be independent but there is many a lip between the cup and the lip.

This is separate from foresters or the mills or the loggers all these guys do is scale logs nothing else.

[Texas Ranger]

A forester is also a witness to the results.

[Dom]

When it comes to stumpage over here most are going with a percentage from scale slips/mill payment. The mills pay by weight. There are so many variables with trees for volume calculations that weight seems ok. Then one could argue about the moisture in the wood varying by season. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Last sale I cut was probably 6 species and 4 grades per species (relatively few compared to many sales). Each species and grade a different price. So to sell by weight you would have to sort by species and grade and then weigh separately. Of the 100 foresters, loggers, mill scales, etc that I know I don't think any of them would want to go thru that hassle.

[Plankton]

I would never sell or buy grade hardwood by weight too many variables.

Could be 250 per mbf for pallet and 2500 per mbf for veneer but they both weight the same.

It's about 50 50 here buying lump sum bids on forester tallied jobs or cutting on percentage of mill tally.

Either way per thousand unless it's like down south pine sorted for grade per ton is what pretty much everyone does.

[barbender]

No way (or weigh lol) that is going to work with mixed grades and species, unless you are trusting their percentage of said grades and species on the stump. 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other type of situation. We typically buy stumpage 2 ways up here. The main one is known as "consumer scale". There are different details, but for the most part a forester will cruise the stand, and estimate the amount of timber (typically in cords up here). Say it's a 1500 cord aspen clearcut. We will bid a price per cord for the sale, if we get the winning bid with most government agencies we then have to make a down payment of 10% of the total estimated amount. When we open the sale, the rest of the sale must be paid for before harvesting can commence. Before we haul any wood, there is a lockbox and ticket books place on the landing. The tickets are numbered, the trucker fills one out with what mill it is going ton species and estimated volume. A stub for the ticket stays in the book, one part goes in the lock box, and the corresponding part goes to the mill. Those all have to line up ot you have an issue. At the end of the sale, you "settle up". If the sale actually produced 1600 cords, you have to pay for another 100 cords of stumpage. If it was only 1400 cords, the landholder pays you back for 100 cords of stumpage. It is generally considered the fairest to all parties up here. 
  The second type is "lump sum" or more commonly called "SOAV", sold on appraised volume. The forester cruises it, estimates volume and the sale is bid on. If it is supposed to be 1000 cords and it overruns 300 cords, you made out well. If it underruns 200, you had a bad day.

[mike_belben]

but there is many a slip between the cup and the lip.

:D


Ive not heard it quite that way before.. Clever. 


How you feel about selling on shares then?  It shouldnt be too hard for you to keep tabs on how many logs on a load and how many go out. Wax pencil if you really have to.   I think most of my scale tickets had log tally on them. 

[BargeMonkey]

Tonnage doesn't work on good hardwood, big mill out in Central NY tried it for a while. You put this out to bid its basically in the foresters hands, ive yet to EVER cut a job that was short on volume, last one had 23k ft of over run, sorry 🤷‍♂️. Forester deals with most landowners 1-2x, loggers all the time and if they get a reputation for being short no one buys the sale, or it goes cheap depending on wood market, see where this is going ? Sell it scaled on the landing on %, safest easiest way.