Going door to door and administering the vaccine

[doctorb]

Hemlock

I just want to point out that, for the most part, Covid is an airborne respiratory virus transmitted through inhalation.  If it were widely transmitted via touch contact, we would know by now.  The guidelines fortreatingcommonly touched surfaces have pretty much been removed. I'm not saying you can't contract the disease via touching a freshly contaminated surface.  I'm just reiterating that contact transmission is a very, very small part of this global infection

The unvaccinated need to focus on protecting against airborne transmission with masks and distancing in crowded situations.

[doc henderson]

we are seeing an uptick.  admitted a 75 y/o overnight, and treating a 38 y/o with a dual antibody product as he has comorbidities.  He had covid last year early, but now has it again.  Neither were vaccinated.  

[Paul_H]

  each article is designed to scare people.

I think we have seen that very same thing from both sides. I put this link up to the light to gain insight and I appreciate your response. The virus and the cure have caused harm and whenever something is kept hidden from people they become suspicious. I believe what the president said yesterday was over the top and causes further division and suspicion. We went from flatten the curve last year to no vax no job no freedom. (Impfstoff macht frei)
I would love to find a simple daily updated chart on vax numbers that can be trusted,not fudged to control a narrative and or agenda. Trust has been hard to find in these past years of media driven fear and misinformation.

A good part of my income is from machine sales but if I don't like a certain model or if I think it's a poor fit for the customer I will give them all the information knowing that the sale lost as well the time and money that it took to lose it. When a new model of chainsaw comes out and my customers want to be first in line I advise them to consider waiting a year and see how they hold up to real testing because I'd rather they be happy in the long run than temporarily.

Thanks for your posts Doc

[21incher]

I watched  a good video about how the Covid vaccines work and how the side  effects are caused by not by the vaccine but the body reaction to the vaccine and no one can actually predict the future outcome for this type of fast tracked vaccine.  The spikes seem to be a big part of problems when the imune system doesn't shut down the response to this type of vaccine quick enough in some.  Also for the most accurate tracking of side effects look at the EU And Germany figures that are actually  tracking 100% of them accurately and not hiding  issues and under reporting like the CDC. The EU has good stats on children also. Apparently the  HHS gets paid for every vaccine administered here and many side effects are not properly tracked to push the vaccine in the US.

[Claybraker]

Looking at the numbers for Georgia there's a huge correlation with median household income and vaccination rate by county. The local health dept outreach in my county (Forsyth) was mostly a post on Facebook, they might have done Insta-gram also.The first clinic was a mess, long lines, some people got turned away, they figured out what they doing and it was pretty well organized. 48% fully vaccinated here as of July 19. Not quite where we need to be but way better than say Charlton at 14%. Residents of wealthier areas have more access and opportunities to get the vaccine if they choose. The expanded outreach programs are just trying to level the playing field.

[Lostinmn]

With respect, I am a vaccinated person to whom it does matter for several reasons:

The more people who are infected, the greater chance for additional variants which could lead to one I'm not protected against.  Less people vaccinated, more "petri" dishes running around, increase probability of variants. It is a numbers game.

While I'm reasonably well protected, especially against chances for serious complications or death, there also are break though exposure risk as no vaccine is 100%.  The more people spreading it, the greater chance of a break though case for me and those in my family even if vaccinated.

Most importantly, I have two children too young for a vaccine as of now. While we take reasonable precautions, the simple fact is another persons choice to not be vaccinated, especially those who don't believe in the danger and take little or no precautions, greatly increases the impact on my children's lives and the lives of others who can't yet be vaccinated due to age or heath reasons.  From impeding their freedom of movement and ability to enjoy life as fully as if we had much higher vaccination rates,  to greatly increasing the probability of their exposure of current and potential future variant strains, the choice is more complicated then you do what you want and I do what I want.

While I am by nature a pretty independent minded and freedom loving person, and greatly respect one's right to whatever choice.  This is one that has greater impacts than on just myself or on one's self, I don't have all the answers, but I would submit that the ethical question is much more broad and complicated.

[HemlockKing]

With respect, I am a vaccinated person to whom it does matter for several reasons:

The more people who are infected, the greater chance for additional variants which could lead to one I'm not protected against.  Less people vaccinated, more "petri" dishes running around, increase probability of variants. It is a numbers game.

While I'm reasonably well protected, especially against chances for serious complications or death, there also are break though exposure risk as no vaccine is 100%.  The more people spreading it, the greater chance of a break though case for me and those in my family even if vaccinated.

Most importantly, I have two children too young for a vaccine as of now. While we take reasonable precautions, the simple fact is another persons choice to not be vaccinated, especially those who don't believe in the danger and take little or no precautions, greatly increases the impact on my children's lives and the lives of others who can't yet be vaccinated due to age or heath reasons.  From impeding their freedom of movement and ability to enjoy life as fully as if we had much higher vaccination rates,  to greatly increasing the probability of their exposure of current and potential future variant strains, the choice is more complicated then you do what you want and I do what I want.

While I am by nature a pretty independent minded and freedom loving person, and greatly respect one's right to whatever choice.  This is one that has greater impacts on just myself or on one's self, I don't necessary have all the answers and just saying the question is much more broad and complicated.

We have a flu that goes around and mutates every year, we haven't restricted people of crossing borders or making flu shots mandatory for jobs in the past? If it mutates then we can re assess and go from there, it's time to go back to normal.  

[Paul_H]

The recent stats I saw for Canada was a 97.8% recovery rate of the infected and that % would be of recorded cases just slightly above NZ at 97.4% The gene therapy is still in the test stages and there are many unknowns in the short and certainly the long term effects.
I have a longtime friend that lives several hours from here that told me he was having very dark thoughts and hadn't been able to meet at AA for over a year, zoom wasn't working for him. Two main things that have helped him in our visits since is don't watch MSM and stay in the Word. There are many like him, isolated from friends and society tossed about by fear and despair of the virus.

I'm thankful for this respectful place for discussion.

[Paul_H]

I have two children too young for a vaccine as of now. While we take reasonable precautions, the simple fact is another persons choice to not be vaccinated, especially those who don't believe in the danger and take little or no precautions, greatly increases the impact on my children's lives and the lives of others who can't yet be vaccinated due to age or heath reasons.  From impeding their freedom of movement and ability to enjoy life as fully as if we had much higher vaccination rates,  to greatly increasing the probability of their exposure of current and potential future variant strains, the choice is more complicated then you do what you want and I do what I want.

While I am by nature a pretty independent minded and freedom loving person, and greatly respect one's right to whatever choice.  This is one that has greater impacts than on just myself or on one's self, I don't have all the answers, but I would submit that the ethical question is much more broad and complicated.

I understand your fears and have 5 children from 19 to 35 years old. There are many dangers in the world  and you really can't protect them from all things. It is not the unvaxed that impede their freedom of movement or keep them from enjoying life.
My son works in a high risk industry, one daughter worked alone on nightshift at a 711 and they all drive automobiles out on busy highways. We caution them to be aware and alert but not fearful.

[doc henderson]

@Paul_H thanks for you level headed assessment and to all for your thoughts.  It becomes hard to know who to trust.  It is bad when things are so political and you have to evaluate motive with each source.  For today I will leave it at that.  Thanks Gentlemen.  and women.

[doc henderson]

I guess 3 of the Tx Dems that flew to Washington (to avoid a vote) on a plane with no masks, and a 30 pack of natural light, have tested + for covid after meeting with the VP.  

[Ianab]

We have a flu that goes around and mutates every year, we haven't restricted people of crossing borders or making flu shots mandatory for jobs in the past? If it mutates then we can re assess and go from there, it's time to go back to normal.  

This is more like the 1918 pandemic. There WERE restrictions put in place during that, even though the exact cause wasn't known. Medical treatment was primitive, and if you needed what's now routine hospital care, you probably just died.  Without vaccines at the time the flu virus DID mutate into the multiple and still mutating variants that are still a problem. Most of the population now has some resistance, so it doesn't crop up as a pandemic any more, just random. outbreaks. That would eventually happen  with Corona, but it took 3 years and X million deaths for flu to get there.
So I'm suggesting there is probably one good chance at actually controlling the virus, in the same way smallpox and polio have been controlled. And that's right now, when we have effective vaccines. A new variant might appear tomorrow that evades the vaccine, and the more cases currently spreading, the more likely this is to happen.
Its possible to eliminate this virus in a population, even without the vaccine. Its NOT easy, but it's been done multiple times. But while the virus is still active in other populations there is a high risk that it will reappear via international travel. This has also happened multiple times.
I will also say that currently living without the virus (and No local restrictions) is good.  

[HemlockKing]

We have a flu that goes around and mutates every year, we haven’t restricted people of crossing borders or making flu shots mandatory for jobs in the past? If it mutates then we can re assess and go from there, it’s time to go back to normal.  

This is more like the 1918 pandemic. There WERE restrictions put in place during that, even though the exact cause wasn't known. Medical treatment was primitive, and if you needed what's now routine hospital care, you probably just died.  Without vaccines at the time the flu virus DID mutate into the multiple and still mutating variants that are still a problem. Most of the population now has some resistance, so it doesn't crop up as a pandemic any more, just random. outbreaks. That would eventually happen  with Corona, but it took 3 years and X million deaths for flu to get there.
So I'm suggesting there is probably one good chance at actually controlling the virus, in the same way smallpox and polio have been controlled. And that's right now, when we have effective vaccines. A new variant might appear tomorrow that evades the vaccine, and the more cases currently spreading, the more likely this is to happen.
Its possible to eliminate this virus in a population, even without the vaccine. Its NOT easy, but it's been done multiple times. But while the virus is still active in other populations there is a high risk that it will reappear via international travel. This has also happened multiple times.
I will also say that currently living without the virus (and No local restrictions) is good.  

To clear up my status on this I will add I did agree with restrictions right up until about  2 months ago, when we started having lots of vaccinations going on, peak pandemic here was 90 cases in one day I believe, and that was mostly in the city, I can’t even be sure I’ve been in close contact with COVID once.
The restrictions still being dragged out now here are ridiculous, still masks indoors. Have been low in COVID numbers over the last few weeks especially, strong vaccination numbers too. 

[doc henderson]

with a 5 to 11 day incubation period, when it hits and area, it will be well underway before anyone knows it.  we are seeing an uptick here.  be careful out there.  I stand corrected, it was miller lite.

[Southside]

I guess 3 of the Tx Dems that flew to Washington (to avoid a vote) on a plane with no masks, and a 30 pack of natural light, have tested + for covid after meeting with the VP.  

Bless their hearts....

[21incher]

If they were all really vaccinated 3 out of 60 gives a 5% chance that is within the advertised rate. Let's wait a couple more days for final stats and quarantines. There  were  over 100 of them huddled on the steps with no masks to monitor  now.

[Larry]

I got to thinking about the smallpox pandemic and have been reading. History can sometimes predict the future. A vaccine was developed in 1796 which could eradicate the disease. It wasn't until 1949 that smallpox was eliminated in the US. Smallpox was officially declared eradicated in 1980. 184 years to get rid of a terrible disease when it could have been done in just a few years.

In 1901 some localities started mandating shots with a fine if ya didn't get one.  Ended up in the Supreme Court with a ruling I don't fully understand.

Newspaper editorials at the time, characterized the smallpox vaccination controversy as "a conflict between intelligence and ignorance, civilization and barbarism." The New York Times dismissed anti-vaccine activists as "a familiar species of cranks" who were "deficient in the power to judge [science]."

I think a true statement that can be applied in 2021.

In any case, smallpox is no longer a worry. How long do we let covid be a worry?

[SwampDonkey]

Some communities are not out of the woods yet. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away. ;)

The Delta Variant Is Surging in Missouri - The Atlantic

[Don P]

Jefferson sent a supply of kine-pox vaccine (kine=cow) with Lewis and Clark on their 1802 expedition west to vaccinate the tribes they met along the way. Jefferson had self administered the shot. I've read that the supply was spoiled before they left but am not entirely sure. When they had their run in with the Blackfoot, Lewis threatened their chief with it. I'm not sure he understood what he had. Can't say better or worse but history would certainly be different if they had been vaccinated.

One take away from the TX senators travels. You don't have to be symptomatic to be a carrier infecting those around you. The director where I'm working got it twice before finally getting off her high horse and getting the shot. I didn't necessarily appreciate the exposure.

[doc henderson]

the tech of today rests on the shoulder from stuff way back.  most things like penicillin and the small pox vaccine, were luck (serendipity) so the word "develop" is a reach.  got to start somewhere.  these days we make a vaccine bit by bit.  should be better and cleaner with fewer side effects, but we will see.  Most if not all folks that claim PCN allergy are basing it on rumors passed down by generations of mothers that remember reactions to the medication (made with horse serum containing proteins) that caused the reaction.  "if you ever get a rash on PCN and you take it again, you will probably die".  most kids get a rash with viruses, so part of the reason to not use antibiotics for a viral infection.  besides the fact that they do not help.  beta-lactam antibiotics are 80% of the oral antibiotics.

[Claybraker]

Some communities are not out of the woods yet. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away. ;)

The Delta Variant Is Surging in Missouri - The Atlantic

Reading that article I'm surprised they just now started using Churches. When the vaccine eligibility expanded here the Mega Church and the Large Baptist Church both hosted clinics. Only places that had enough parking and indoor seating to handle the crowd size.

[Larry]

Here in northwest Arkansas we are just a few miles from Missouri and conditions are just as bad.  Tonight's news was that some hospitals are full.

To fight covid, our state has passed a law that masks can no longer be required in schools.  They also passed a law that schools cannot require teachers to get a vaccination.

So....in the coming school year we have students and teachers that won't need to wear a mask.  We have kids not old enough to get the vaccine.  An estimate is only 50 - 60 percent of the teachers have got the vaccine.  We have 30 kids in a small classroom where it's going to be near impossible to practice social distancing.  Anybody see a problem?

[Southside]

Look up Dr Robert Malone - he invented the mRNA gene therapy and has been rather vocal about the significant side effects the public is not being told about.  He is obviously pro vaccine, however he is against forced vaccination, and he just said the data shows something is wrong, very wrong - the countries with the highest vaccine rates have the highest Covid rates now too.   

The PCR testing is being done with two different thresholds, meaning if you say your are vaccinated then the test is run at a lower level to look for the virus than if you say you are not.  Why would that be the case? 

You can also look up the studies that have shown a significant issue with mask contamination and kids, especially at school.  PPE serves a very good purpose, when it's used properly, and in serviceable condition, does not matter if it's chainsaw chaps or the legitimate use of a mask, but when misused or not in serviceable condition that PPE can be a greater hazard.  

The six foot social distancing has been de-bunked numerous times, in reality it would be more like 30', which is not possible in modern society.  

Sounds like Arkansas is listening to the science and trying to find a path forward that allows personal responsibility, choice, and the reality of how a working economy are necessary to move beyond this.  

[21incher]

Dr Malone was talking  about the vaccine on Newsmax and was basically  saying that if you are 20 or under the side effects of Covid are not as dangerous as the side effects of the vaccine for most cases. Something  to do with the different spike used in the vaccine.  I tried  reading some of the papers  about it but they were  way over my head. The different spike used in the vaccine sounds  to be the cause of side effects in the brain and heart membrane. The US is for some reason hiding information on side effects and trying  not to follow science anymore.  It's all about money and control. Good to see areas trying  to get back to normal and hopefully they will succeed.
It would  be nice if the government  would release  the number of infected illegals distributed to each city to see if that has anything to do with recent spikes.

[aigheadish]

A little late to my long reply to @Larry 

Other than being a decent human being, not up in people's faces, covering my coughs, washing hands etc. I've followed the rules to the letter. I'm usually socially distant, masks make it very difficult to breathe and I have some existing breathing issues already. 

My work has been considered essential, we have customers in Wuhan, where things are shipped back and forth repeatedly, and we never stopped showing up. We've got a diverse group of employees, where I work and interact on a regular basis with about 30 people every day. A few of them have tested positive but a positive test, in the world of conflicting PCR cycles, doesn't mean much to me. I don't think that anyone doesn't know the vaccine exists at this point, so I'm not sure who I'm infecting (if anyone) that isn't willing to take the risk of not getting the vax.

I'm certainly not trying to be an a-hole by not taking the vax but I've seen a lot of signs that point to the powers that be ARE being a-holes by looking only at science and only reporting on that that supports the sale of more vax or the removal of more freedoms. When guys like Dr. Malone, mentioned above, makes noise like he does I tend to listen. 

I really feel like we've been scammed. I'd like to think I'd say the same thing if I were in the hospital, but who can know. Looking back at similar powers that be, years ago when trying to do the exact same thing, at least a few times, leads me to a distrust of those powers. 

I have kids who I worry very much about getting one of these vaccines (not to mention future mRNA ones), there don't seem to be any studies of really any side effects, the VAERS database is essentially voluntary and subject to fraud, and I worry about vax effects that build up over the course of years that we don't understand. Am I willing to take my chances that my kids may get sick from the virus over the chance they'll not be able to have kids, go blind/deaf, get a swollen heart, get diabetes, a stroke, shingles, or who knows what else, because we don't seem to even be looking? Yup.

It's nice to have a community where these discussions can be had civil-y. If anyone doesn't want me to show up at a Forestry Forum meetup they can just let me know, I'll be ok.