In forestry, are there stranded assets?

[kantuckid]

Much of the issue of White Oak supply is the full utilization of the resource. Prior to the red oak lumber boom bust circa 2005 a significant percentage of the "stave logs" sawn were 2nd and 3rd cuts. Low grade white oak lumber was cheap and $.50/foot log price attracted more logs than the coopers could saw.

Barrels need to be knot-free, but the individual staves are small; lots of staves to be had from in between knots, around the outside of a butt log with a fire scar etc. Brown Foreman owning its own cooperage started the trend of chasing "near veneer only" and paying a premium. Robinson and Independent which combined were probably 75% of the world market continued with the cheap log focus for several more years. What changed was the unexpected "bourbon boom" that blossomed during the lumber crash of 2009. Near veneer yielded higher production rates for a system that could not meet the demand. It is a very specialized market that is "years" from quarter sawing/air drying/coopering/ then several more years of aging in the barrel. The wood log cost compared to sales loss on booze worth $200+ gallon led to the stave log price wars.  Also, to be noted is that the "shorts" can be used in heading and many low-cost wine and spirits are "aged" in stainless steel vats with white oak "tea bags" from white oak waste woods used to impart the characteristic color and flavor. Some of the issue is snobbery rather than utility.

New mills and kilns have been built. Capacity has improved to lessen the crisis mode of distillers having orders but not the barrels. I am starting see a swing back to mills "rediscovering" that 2nd and 3rd cut logs produce staves cheaper than $2.50 near veneer logs. Just a side note that the switch to high priced/high yielding logs coincided with foreign ownership from the same folks who brought the JIT/zero inventory model to manufacturing. That model never worked in the wood business. Production is tied too closely to weather. We had 3" of rain yesterday and temps this coming week to cycle between the teens and 40's. I don't care what you "pay" what isn't beside the road already can't be bought. You got a mill to run 24/7 in Feb you best build a mountain in August and put the sprinkler to them. Lucky for me I continue to give them that lecture every winter. The fact they seldom heed the advice has proven profitable.

In the same vein as wet season production; an unlimited supply of near veneer butt only white oak is laughable no matter how many dollars they waste on websites, studies, and feel-good initiatives. They would be better served purchasing some mirrors if they want to identify and mitigate the demise of the White Oak supply. Using more of the trees already being harvested immediately doubles the available supply.

Perhaps a few research dollars should be allocated to study the relationship that exists between the number of abbreviated letters following one's name versus the impairment to the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time.

I'll take credit for "waking the bear" on this stavewood topic. :)It IS a stranded asset as we speak. Locally at least, it's flooding and like said gets seriously cold come Monday, then wears off, but mud, lots of mud. 
I make home made wine now & then, mostly kits and "oaking" the wine is very common to gain that flavor aspect. On the winemakers forum they often say that unless the oak chips are from France they are like dog turds, so to speak(my words) ;D. I raised that issue of my using some pieces I chipped off my firewood and riled em up a bit as blasphemy. A winemakers supply sells a couple ounces of oak chips for serious money. 

[DMcCoy]

Stavebuyer - lol Tell us what you really think!  Loved it!
Commercially produced economically stranded by property lines, stream rules,  tree size(to big for commercial mills) is a thing.  I have a portion of my property that fits this definition of stranded assets. 
I'm stuck with the idea of oil and gas stranded assets being different.  Are the oil and gas stranded assets permanently stranded- it takes more energy to remove than what you get in return.

[moodnacreek]

When my skidder is stuck in the swamp, I consider it a "stranded asset"



Happy New Year everyone!!!!

A man after my own heart.

[moodnacreek]

That was a good one Stave buyer.

[kantuckid]

Stavebuyer - lol Tell us what you really think!  Loved it!
Commercially produced economically stranded by property lines, stream rules,  tree size(to big for commercial mills) is a thing.  I have a portion of my property that fits this definition of stranded assets.  
I'm stuck with the idea of oil and gas stranded assets being different.  Are the oil and gas stranded assets permanently stranded- it takes more energy to remove than what you get in return.

All about the market place. My mailing address has a gas compressor station on one end and bunch of capped wells in between. E KY's full of wells now pumping, sometimes not, some capped. No fracking here, small wells in back country areas drilled with cable tools-what my FIL and all his family did back when. 
Our oldest son and most all the other gulf pilots and rig workers too lost their gulf oil jobs when oil got too low. His employer there owns more helos than anyone in the world except our own military. It mostly all shut down.
Near me, the largest sawmill in our county- he just opened back recently, was "sitting" on 2 million BF of oak on his yard.  

[Ed_K]

 60 min's had an article about the wine ind. where, France is loosing the battle on climate change and how the USA has taken over that market. But it's not California winning climate has pushed winery up the hill, and their going big and in more need for Oak.

[Southside]

Funny, Germany lost their wine industry due to the "Little Ice Age", so it's always been in flux. 

[nativewolf]

And with the increased heat they are making good red wines in Germany again after being known for white wines.  

[kantuckid]

I've had some great wines from northern Baja, MX. It's on the desert there and then was an early time in that areas winery business -at least in modern times, was 1996, I think and my wife had a meeting in SD, CA so we took a week in Mexico. It was becoming the Baja wine circuit seen there now. I've also toured the oldest winery(maybe) in Mexico in Ensenada, Baja, MX right in town. Jesuits started it up.
 Gets real hot where I'm mentioning is sort of my point! My kit wines mostly come from AU, Canada and European juices. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Interesting thread and great commentaries from a wide range of people with different backgrounds.

   Of course there will be stranded assets and they will change with the times, technology and people's needs/tastes. 

   I understand when the settlers first came to America typical contracts for indentured servants promised in the NE they would not be fed lobster more than 1-2 times per week because they were considered trash fish. People's tastes changed now they are very expensive as they are considered a delicacy. I am sure the folks in Mississippi and Louisiana are trying to find a market for Asian carp which are currently considered nuisance invasives.

  Gold that was not worth the expense to harvest is now being mined because of increase in value and possibly lowered production/recovery costs.

   I think the portable band mill is a good example of a change in technology. For a relatively low cost people could buy a machine that allows a single operator or small crew to produce lumber from trees that could not be economically harvested, transported and sawed at the larger mills. Some of those costs can be attributed as recreation for hobby purposes just like hunting and fishing is much more of a recreation than economical for meat production.

   A change in technology can open or close an industry in pretty short order. Look at the film industry now that digital technology has arrived. I remember the first computer I used operated with a floppy disk and when I heard how much memory it stored and I told them "I'll never need that much space." Now one picture would fill more than that. 

   I heard an engineer friend once say the worst thing you could do to a barrel of oil was burn it as there were many other applications to which it could be converted and applied. I figure the same is true with a tree. I wonder how the current paper needs compare to the past with digital storage. I remember what would have taken a warehouse to archive the files of a major project we did in Norway, we downloaded and filed on a hard drive not much bigger than a pack of cigarettes.

   I figure the logging industry will change even more in the future just like in the past. Horse and mules and log rafting have been replaced with skidders and trucks and railcars and I can foresee a time when even more and better equipment could be developed to access and transport logs from small patches that aren't economical to harvest now.

   Again, very interesting concepts at work here.

[mike_belben]

I know a commercial farmer who roads a big ag tractor about 40 miles between leased fields.  The same could be said of backhoes and wheel loaders in a large county. The municpality isnt getting a low boy.  Theyll let the operator drive a few hours between jobs without batting an eye.


That is something that i think would make small patch logging a bit easier on mechanized crews, not having to truck move all the iron.  The ability to hang the tracks on the back and road out a string of small jobs with flashers and triangles.  Out here it does happen once in a while.  Ive seen a grapple skidder pull a knuckleboom down a primary backroad but if you wanna really help the logger i think they should be able to get away with everything the farmer can which to me includes clogging up the state routes too. 

[Southside]

I have a 300 acre chunk of rented ground that is 20 miles away.  I have run to it with the tractor and loaded it onto a lowboy.  The problem isn't the tractor - it's the 14'-15' wide implements that follow the tractor.  With the duals on they are only a couple of feet wider than the tractor,  and there is a better chance folks will see the combo heading toward them, but if I low boy the tractor home and hook onto the implements with the pickup - well let's just say the National Association of Blind Drivers suddenly shows up and it's a white knuckle ride the whole way.  Even with the tractor hooked up I have had a few way too close calls, how people miss that is beyond me.  

[kantuckid]

I think theres a lot more inertia than we think there.  The wine industry requires oak and a barrel is good for about 3 runs then its art deco fodder.  

My guess is that the covid era brings a whole lot more brewers and winemakers online.  If vineyards are political ill say the california left has a pretty good grip on them. And coopers arent going away.

For some related information to oak types and barrel use talk: Whiskey Barrels Wholesale Philadelphia - Northeast Barrel Company 
Among the wine crowd the talk revolves around American oak vs. European oak vs. French oak and seems to have become part of the whiskey trade too. 

[WDH]

American white oak just cut anytime or American white oak cut on the full moon when the fairies and wood nymph's dance?

[kantuckid]

Check your cellphone for further information on Fairy oak vs, Wood Nymph oak. I had a thought best not revealed

[livemusic]

American white oak just cut anytime or American white oak cut on the full moon when the fairies and wood nymph's dance?

Sounds like an Andy Griffith Show episode script theme with Charlene and the boys.