new WM BMS250MU, won't operate (my issue solved, others still have problems)

[jimbarry]

Is the pump wired in at all?  Where is it wired?  Put a DVM on the where it is wired now and where it may need to be wired and check to see if power is present.

What is the voltage requirement labeled on the pump?  Does it match the terminals where it is supposed to be wired?

For the pump to be wired to the wrong terminals form the factory means the factory never actually turned it on...if true, that's a concerning issue.

This is pics from our working machine.
Pumps wires are marked M2 on the bar at the bottom of the board, brown and blue wires.
A DVM did not produce anything. I have not much practical experience using a DVM other than what someone instructs me to do.


 
As for the jumpers, #5 jumps to #3.  And #6 jumps to #4.
Side view showing jumpers.


 
Pump specs of working machine


 
Pump specs of non working machine


 
Here's a picture of the spare "sobanski" circuit board  WM had sent to me to use to replace the original "elektryk" in the new machine. Still didn't work so they sent me another "elektryk". I am showing this so that you can see markings on the circuit board. I have other pictures at different angles should somebody want to see all the markings.


 
So far as I can tell, it's just the jumpers that are missing, as was pointed out to me earlier by @gmmills 

[YellowHammer]

I checked, mine has the jumpers, also.

However, the terminals are labeled 230 and the pump is 115, and there's no doubt the jumpers are there.  I can see how someone would wire it up "wrong" because it looks correct, based on the terminal nomenclature and the pump requirements.  

However, to install the jumpers, then 230 is being jumped to 115, based on the terminal labels, which intuitively be incorrect.  However, the jumpers are there, so there is obviously some circuitry shenanigans going on behind the scenes on the circuit board.

I would be calling my "guy" at WM and see what is going on.  Or install the jumpers and see what happens.     

[jimbarry]

@YellowHammer I am waiting to hear but from WM on their next move. I don't want to jump ahead (pun not intended) and void warranty.

[gmmills]

   First issue I will address is BMS250MU machine is 110-120 volt  machine. The BMS250AU is a 220-230 volt machine. There is not one component in a BMS250MU that is 220-230 volt required. With that being said, no fear in damaging components. The reason that the board terminals are numbered 230 and 110 is because the same pc board is used in both machines BMS250MU and BMS250AU. The difference is how the input voltage is wired to the board itself. The two black wires that are connected to the 230V and 230VO terminals are a 110 input voltage. The 230V terminal is 110 volts. The 230VO terminal is ground. So running the jumpers from these terminals to the 110V and 110VO is not an issue. The 110V and 110VO terminals are the input power to the pump circuit. Without these jumpers connected the pump circuit is not powered. This is the most obvious issue with this particular machine.

    Jim, do not be concerned by adding these jumpers. Two short lengths of wire stripped on ends. Very economical fix.    

[gmmills]

I checked, mine has the jumpers, also.

However, the terminals are labeled 230 and the pump is 115, and there's no doubt the jumpers are there.  I can see how someone would wire it up "wrong" because it looks correct, based on the terminal nomenclature and the pump requirements.  

However, to install the jumpers, then 230 is being jumped to 115, based on the terminal labels, which intuitively be incorrect.  However, the jumpers are there, so there is obviously some circuitry shenanigans going on behind the scenes on the circuit board.

I would be calling my "guy" at WM and see what is going on.  Or install the jumpers and see what happens.    

So yours is wired this way and you are still skeptical. Good luck with calling your guy at WM to get confirmation on what I am suggesting. Most US Wood-Mizer techs have a very limited knowledge base when it comes to these sharpeners. The reason being, the machines are built and packaged in Poland. Shipped here and sold.  

[YellowHammer]

Yes, certainly, I am ALWAYS skeptical if something doesn't make sense, the electrical board is mislabeled, until I understand the engineering situation with proper diagnostics. It may work fine, in fact it probably will.  What you say makes sense, however, voltage is easy enough to check before a circuit is fried, but much harder after.  

I agree with Jim, this is really a WM ball to fix, or at least get their approval, and potentially voiding the warranty on an expensive piece of equipment because "someone on the internet told me to do it" would not be my first move.  That also includes me saying that mine has the same jumpers as yours.  In that case it's "Two guys on the internet told me to do it."  If it's 115V then it can be checked with a voltmeter very quickly, by both Jim and WM.  The prudent thing is to coordinate with WM, especially since they are already in the loop.  Putting on the jumpers may solve the local problem, but from a macroscopic viewpoint, coordinating with WM serves to possibly prevent this from happening to someone else in the future.  

[Machinebuilder]

Does the manual have a circuit diagram?

I tried looking but got directed to Woodmizer Europe and it wanted a log in.

Without a diagram to go by, I will make many assumptions.

It looks like these are built in Europe. in much of Europe the standard voltage is 220Vac.

it looks like the machine is designed to use 110Vac so it can be sold world wide.

to make it run on 220Vac it would need a step down transformer.

to make it run on 110Vac the transformer is not needed and the terminals are jumpered together.

Seeing this is a brand new machine I would not suspect the relays or the PC board. those are very common "ice cube relay" sockets and the square 4 pin socket looks like it is for a DC rectifier to make 12Vdc.

Again without a circuit diagram I will not make any suggestions to another person.
If it were mine I would trace wiring on the working machine, draw a simple diagram and make the new machine match.

[Southside]

When I was dealing with the issue with mine the original style relays were no longer available, not sure about now.  I had to remove that circuit board - not a fun hole to work in given the recessed and enclosed case it sits in.  

[jimbarry]

Does the manual have a circuit diagram?

No, it does not.  When I was speaking with the dealer over the phone he was explaining even the diagram he was looking at, one relay was for the MU unit, the other relay was for the AU unit. He wasn't putting much weight behind the diagram's accuracy for that reason. 

[jimbarry]

... not a fun hole to work in given the recessed and enclosed case it sits in.  

Since I've done it half a dozen times now, the easiest method is to unscrew the cable clamps behind the unit and push both sets of wires in a couple inches. Then go into the box and remove the 4 nuts that hold the entire control panel. Then you can pull out the entire thing outside of the box enough to work on it.



 

 

[Machinebuilder]

I've been trying to understand this more, it's hard to do remotely.

The BMS250MU is the 110V option
the BMS250AU is the 220V Option.

I looked up the relays, they are both 3pdt relays (3 pole double throw), one is a 110V coil the other is a 12V coil.
The lever on top is a manual override/test, it will close the contacts without voltage on the coil.
It could make sense the relay with the yellow/orange test button could be different for the MU vs AU


Left to right

the red twist to pull switch is an Emergency stop.
the buttons next to it are power on/power off
the next buttons look to be a cycle on/ cycle off
next is wheel on/off toggle
next is oil on/off toggle
next is a speed select for the advance

I'll look further later, I have to go back to work.

Sorry if I am being too basic or saying things already known. I have never seen one of these machines and am trying to help.

I have to trouble shoot a lot of different things

[jimbarry]

...

Left to right

the red twist to pull switch is an Emergency stop.
yes
the buttons next to it are power on/power off
yes
the next buttons look to be a cycle on/ cycle off
When its off, the three function (stone motor, cam advancer, pump) are off. 
next is wheel on/off toggle
This on/off switch turns on the motor for the cbn stone.
next is oil on/off toggle
This on/off switch turns on the oil pump.
next is a speed select for the advance
This variable switch is for the cam advance motor.

I'll look further later, I have to go back to work.

Sorry if I am being too basic or saying things already known. I have never seen one of these machines and am trying to help.

I have to trouble shoot a lot of different things

[Machinebuilder]

I hope you've got it running, I had a busy weekend and haven't looked further.

I am fairly confident that putting the jumpers in will get it running.

I can't read the wire numbers in your pictures but the bottom 4 wires appear to go to the small transformer.
This would be for the 12Vdc power supply used for the magnetic switch?

The jumpers would be the power for the motors

CZUJNIK = machine sensor
SILNIK = motor

[fluidpowerpro]

Often times when I read about equipment issues on the forum, I am amazed at the tolerance sawmill guys have for manufacturers problems. In my last job I can tell you that most of my customers wouldn't have put up with us shipping a machine that didn't work. They would have demanded we either replace it pronto, or send someone out to fix it. Has Woodmizer offered any of those options? They should. They obviously have a quality issue with this model that they are ignoring to address.

[barbender]

I think in normal times that is true, but now a lot of times people are waiting 6, 12, 18 months to get the product in the first place. Typically from what I've seen in the past WM would've shipped out a new sharpener pronto. They definitely need to be doing some more quality checks and final operational checks before they ship. If it was me, if I already waited a long time for it I'd probably be trying to figure out how to make it work before I sent it back and waited for another one. Not that I think anyone should have to, just the way things are right now👎

[fluidpowerpro]

I understand. It's just disappointing when I see that multiple people have had similar issues. Any reputable company that has any kind of quality program would flag issues once they are identified and then specifically test for it before shipping any more machines. Yes, wait times are long, but if you wait, and then get a machine that does not work just adds insult to injury.

[Stephen1]

I understand. It's just disappointing when I see that multiple people have had similar issues. Any reputable company that has any kind of quality program would flag issues once they are identified and then specifically test for it before shipping any more machines. Yes, wait times are long, but if you wait, and then get a machine that does not work just adds insult to injury.

I realise We as sawmill owners are expected to 'fix our own machines'. I do not have an issue with that. I have had Brian at the Canadian office send me tech support PDF 's  on trouble shooting as he is so busy as they are understaffed and undertrained in Canada also. 
When the starter on my mill was giving me a problem when it only had 50 hrs on it, I was told by Kholer that there were no starters available and I should take my mill to one of thier dealers. (not sure what that was going to solve) I was told by the dealer that it would be 2 weeks before he could look at my new mill. This at the busiest time of year for sawing.  WM had Kholer pull a starter off another a new machine in Montreal and ship it to me. I was back up and sawing in 2 days.
This is what should happen with Jim. Very simple. He needs another sharpener to run his buisness. Send him a new working machine and the old one should go back to the factory to be repaired.  To be over 2 months trying to trouble shoot this machine is unacceptable. 

[barbender]

I'm not trying to defend the manufacturer, to be clear. Someone needs to step up and take care of the issue. I'm only speaking to why owners are putting up with some of this right now.

[Walnut Beast]

Bottom line is they should get a shipping label created to have that one picked up and drop ship you another one when they see it's been picked up.......

[SawyerTed]

There's an assumption here that the manufacturer even has machines to exchange of to drop ship.  I believe there's a flaw in that thinking.  

We are in uncharted territory with the supply chain crisis.  

[Stephen1]

Good point Ted. That is the way problems have been solved in the past. With the supply chain problems, war in the neighbouring country they might have stopped production and producing something else to help thier neighbours. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Times are certainly strange these days. In addition to supply chain issues and component availability problems there are some less tangible constraints with major impacts. For instance I notice that a LOT of companies are losing a considerable amount of talent and knowledge base pool through retirement of the older journeyman level folks who have just had enough and the pandemic was the straw that broke the camels back making them decide to retire. I know that is the case with myself ad several others I know who were always the strongest troubleshooters for our companies. WM is no different in this respect and they have lost good talent. The next group coming up lacks that skill and experience and now also has no 'Old Guy' in the office to mentor them. They are doing their best and just have to learn the hard way, by making mistakes and wasting a lot of time.
 It is also well documented in these forums that when most of us see a problem like Jim is having, we want to help and we want to see him up and running ASAP. Time is money even if you are running a retirement business. We are also a little incensed by a company shipping a non-working product. That just ain't right.
 However, It's pretty clear that Jim isn't relying on this (2nd machine) to keep his business afloat. It is a planned expansion. Most likely he wants to get it right and work with WM to make that happen. It also appears that Jim has plenty of other stuff that needs doing everyday, so this is not a burning priority. He wants to give WM a chance to make it right. It's his machine and investment and he needs to handle it his way even if it might not be your way or mine. I am sure he will end up with everything working just fine, Hopefully the WM tech working on this will learn a lot too.

 So @jimbarry it's been several days, have you heard back from WM with a new plan yet?

[Machinebuilder]

The supply chain issues currently are absolutely mind boggling.

I work in a shop that builds and integrates machines. We are installing an entire new product line currently.
This is a multi year process with planning, lead times etc.

We are having to accept machines that are missing components because they are not available, and the machine builder needs space on their floor to build the next machine. Missing components such as circuit breakers, input cards, cables. the industrial electronics industry seems to be the hardest hit at the moment.

It doesn't help that all of the machine builders are building more than they ever have. and dealing with staffing issues, People have retired.

Unfortunately this country has discouraged young people from entering skilled trades for a long time. Now we are missing the people with 20 years experience, the people with 40 years experience and knowledge are retiring (me too soon).

I do know some guys in their late 20's-40's but they aren't the same as the older guys. another point is you can be a great machine repairman/troubleshooter but not be good at starting a machine from scratch. I also know guys that are great programmers but terrible at basic electrical/mechanical. I learned many years ago its easier to teach a good electrical guy mechanical than vise versa.

Dave

[tacks Y]

I see one coming to auction in a couple weeks with 7 Wm mills. Not likely any bargains but for those looking at BSM250s. 

[SawyerTed]

I saw the auction advertisement yesterday.  I might join that auction just to see how the mills sell.  If the last few auctions indicate what's going to happen, those Woodmizer mills will go above new values.  Seems like used mill prices have come down some but still above new values.