Wake Up Call for Green Energy

[stavebuyer]

The "strategic reserve" had minimal impact on price or supply and that political card has been played. All businesses should be in the business of making money. Competition and supply controls pricing. 

I really don't understand the fantasy world thinking that having the whole change to electric is not going to dramatically increase the cost of electricity. Sunshine may be free, but all the stuff needed to turn it into something usable is not. 

We are all about to find out. Problem is the naysayers like me are on the same limb the as the unicorn believers sawing off our perch.

[Hilltop366]

Competition and supply controls pricing

Lets not forget the biggest factor demand, it does not matter how much you have or how many are trying to sell it if nobody wants it it ain't worth a dime.

[Hilltop366]

I really don't understand the fantasy world thinking that having the whole change to electric is not going to dramatically increase the cost of electricity. Sunshine may be free, but all the stuff needed to turn it into something usable is not. 

No doubt the price will go up as demand increases.

One of the cool things about electricity over gas and diesel is it is clean and cheap to make your own. Wood gas doesn't seem very practical or cost efficient and I know people that burn frier oil in old diesels and have seen the work involved and the mess but it is cheap if only a few are doing it, if everybody wants the frier oil it would only take a minute to run out.

[Southside]

Actually sunshine isn't free.  Here in Virginia we pay a "forest use tax" on all logs that end up at a sawmill, pulp facility, etc.  That's in addition to the annual real-estate tax.  The more the sun shines, the more the tree grows, the more tax you pay at harvest - so yea a sunshine tax.  Just wait until the EV world figures out how that works.  

As far as making electricity at home being clean - how do you produce the silaca, copper, lead, and other components of those PV panels at home? You may get to enjoy the "clean" part of solar, but somebody, somewhere, is dealing with the other half of that equation.  

[WhitePineJunky]

I really don't understand the fantasy world thinking that having the whole change to electric is not going to dramatically increase the cost of electricity. Sunshine may be free, but all the stuff needed to turn it into something usable is not.

No doubt the price will go up as demand increases.

One of the cool things about electricity over gas and diesel is it is clean and cheap to make your own. Wood gas doesn't seem very practical or cost efficient and I know people that burn frier oil in old diesels and have seen the work involved and the mess but it is cheap if only a few are doing it, if everybody wants the frier oil it would only take a minute to run out.

NSP wants a EV revolution big time 

[rusticretreater]

The two new proposed mega mining areas (Cobalt) in Idaho and the one(Lithium) in the volcano caldera on the Nevada/Oregon border will be rocking the market.  It will take a decade to even get things going, but known supply will spur new investment in solar and EV.  Another big industry waiting to grow is recycling of solar panels.  This will be big business too and the recovered metals will snapped up.  As always, the original way of doing things, Hydroelectric power, is still the most cost efficient and is clean.  

The EPA website Green House Gas emissions says that the Electrical sector produces 25% of the total.  That can only grow I think.  I wonder if that takes into account the electrical company setting all of California on fire?

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-greenhouse-gas-emissions

[stavebuyer]

On what planet will large scale mining be allowed to take place? All ground is sacred to somebody. No such thing as common sense in this country anymore. The eco-nuts aren't partial to any use or alteration of natural resources. 

[Hilltop366]

As far as making electricity at home being clean - how do you produce the silaca, copper, lead, and other components of those PV panels at home? You may get to enjoy the "clean" part of solar, but somebody, somewhere, is dealing with the other half of that equation.  

But you get to enjoy the clean part for years vs a gallon of gas that at 24.2 miles per gallon (average for all new gas powered vehicles) traveling at 60 mph last 24 min. 

Who's system of propulsion is the cleanest when all factors are taken into account? Don't know but when you think about the equipment that goes into oil exploration, drilling, pumping, transportation, refining, more transportation and then it gets you 24 miles down the road then you got to wait another million years or however long it takes for the carbon to be used up by plants and be buried and turn into oil again I would not bet oil being the cleanest.

[rusticretreater]

On what planet will large scale mining be allowed to take place? All ground is sacred to somebody. No such thing as common sense in this country anymore. The eco-nuts aren't partial to any use or alteration of natural resources.

Mining is already underway in Idaho for the cobalt.  Most of it is in a National Park and the US Military is after it.  The government has also identified it as a strategic resource which cuts a lot of red tape and lawsuits.

The lithium deposit is said to be worth over 5 trillion dollars.  You can bet that Oregon and Nevada aren't gonna let that sit around long.

Home electricity production also has wind turbines and there are plenty of youtubers making vids on their own hydro electric power.  Yah, its iffy, but it does work.

[stavebuyer]

Borrowing from "Back to the Future", you are going to need several 'jig-a-watts" of additional power as you simultaneously phase out IC engines and fossil fuel power generation. Build the new and let the old become obsolete on its own accord. Since everyone in the "new green" camp is so certain of its absolute infallibility there should be no risk. Of course, we still have to save the planet but wondering how you plan to get the developing countries that do most of the mining and manufacturing to sign off on their demise? They might be uneducated but they realize it's smarter not to cut off your left arm so your right will be stronger. Any "net" savings in your backyard is going to be going up a new smokestack in India or Vietnam. Committing pointless financial suicide. Somebody needs to do a graph charting the rise of EPA vs the decline of domestic production. We are cleaner but the cost was our middle class and sooner or later the people we outsourced our manufacturing to will become our masters and the planet will still be filthy.

[Mooseherder]

Meanwhile BRICS will offset whatever well meaning folks sacrifice and grow their own economy's resulting in zero gain reduction in emissions for earth.  It would be easier to accept if criminals weren't in charge I suppose.  We are the laughing stock of this polluted earth while Washington pummeled and sabotaged our Treasury for the politicians and foreign lands. That's the gig you know who was trying to stop.  My tolerance for ignorance is zero moving forward.

[doc henderson]

there is a loss of energy in any machine, especially when converting from one type to another type of usable energy.  either heat or light.  not all IC are as efficient.  the most efficient ones cannot do much work.  If you have to go 25 mph on the highway and coast down the highway, you may get 250 mpg, but cannot hold a job.  we could all work from home.  "Mom after the incision, gently remove the appendix.  it is the thing that looks like this picture".  We could all ride bikes.  the old answer was public transportation.  Oops sorry they use diesel.  all the mining equipment uses diesel.  It is a great idea who time is slowly coming.  If you drive an electric car or generate 1/20th of the electricity you need daily, good for you.  None of this make any sense on an acute next year basis unless you have drunk the cool aid.  I have not drunk it, and I am not uninformed.  You can get and electric car that does 0 to 60 in 3 seconds.  Wow those will be some awful teenager accidents.  and the bigger motors (even electric) will use more power.  then we need more coal and gas to make more energy.  If it could run off the sun, it would be great.  maybe in 100 years.  Not in my lifetime.  so do not get rid of pertol fuels till you have an alternative.  you can bet the politicians ramming this down our throat will still have fuel for their planes, because they have to go talk the rest of the world into being stupid as well.  let them use a pedal boat to cross the ocean.  It is what they expect all the regular folks to do, I guess.

[TW]

I rekon the main problem is the unnecsessary dependancy on huge amounts of energy that just has to come from somewhere.

Any new and greener energy system must start by:
1. Geting cargo onto ships and barges and railway waggons instead of onto lorries (trucks) which in turn implies massive investments in railways, harbours and canals.
2. Moving either productiuon closer to the people or people closer to production. Avoiding long commutes and long transports when possible.
3. Moving supplies closer to the people. The mom and pop style country stores and small coops that still were plentiful in Finland in my childhood and nowadays rare here and almost non-existant in many other contries actually served the purpose of cutting down on shopping runs. Saving energy.
4. More collective transport. Busses, trains and packet ships instead on the obiquitous car.
5. For those who still needs a car it must be smaller and more fuel efficient. For instance you don't need a huge pickup or Chevy Van as freelance carpenter/builder though many seem to think so. I am for instance making do with a short frame Ford Transit Connect with approximately half the fuel consumption.
6. Heating/cooling  fewer square metres. A normal sized family doesn't need a gigantic home with a srawling floor plan and every room heated or cooled to the same temperature all year.
7. Climate adapted buiudings. Wrap around porches and thick stone walls in warm climates. Square rather compact houses with entrance halls provinging a heat sluice in cold climates.
8. Bicykle adapted town planning. Every day you can leve the car at home saves energy.
9. Put an end to air travel and air freight except for emergency deliveries of for instance fire pumps and critical spare parts and specialist or resque workers.

And so on.

Only after such changes have been made we can maybe maybe maybe produce the electricity we need for a green energy switchover. Or at least make limited amounts of fossil and other fuels go a lot further.

[barbender]

Someone mentioned Hydro-electric being clean. Maybe, as far as emissions. But there are many other consequences of hydro. Fish and game impacts, flooded land- that new lake seems pretty nice if it's not your ancestors' graves that are flooded🤷

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, here in New Brunswick, a lot of graves were relocated because of hydro. Also, hydro dams interfered with Atlantic salmon runs. There was only one dam with a fish way, the rest further down stream had none so putting a fishway on the upper dam (it was the first), never did much good. Other than some fish were trucked over the lower dams, but the number of fish transported was insignificant compared to the wild runs previous.

[SwampDonkey]

Geopolitical Strategist Peter Zeihan is a global energy, demographic and security expert.

Why EVs Aren't The GreenTech Panacea || Peter Zeihan

Why EVs Aren't The GreenTech Panacea || Peter Zeihan - YouTube

[sharp edge]

yes, the EV has problems...... but its not smart to drive down the road boiling a lot of  water up front and blowing a lot of smoke out the back.

SE

[barbender]

I tried to watch that but I couldn't get past that guy's stupid hat.

[Southside]

BB talking trash about a guys hat?  ;D

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, to be fair, that hat was a lot to take in, and it was distracting. But the message was pretty clear and , I think, pretty accurate. All things we have observed, but he had the numbers which always helps.

[barbender]

I would never try to get anyone to take me seriously if I was wearing my big yellow hat. Or if I was bald. Thankfully, I'm not. And, I can take off my hat😁

[SwampDonkey]

He's had that same hat awhile, wears it a lot up in the CO hills when it's a blanket of white. :D But he's not just a youtuber, he's been all over the globe at various conferences. Some guys like to do goofie stuff on youtube. :D

[doc henderson]

common hat on the ski slopes in CO.  Assuming he has no agenda (like when the pro-EV guys speak) it sounds about right.

[SwampDonkey]

Here's Pete donning a different hat.

Lithium: The False Profit of Electrification || Peter Zeihan - YouTube

[SwampDonkey]

Failed tidal power project on the rocks

Tidal power turbine owned by bankrupt company washes ashore on Brier Island | CBC News