Wake Up Call for Green Energy

[Ianab]

A gallon of gas here is $CDN6.50 and equivalent to 19.5 kwh. So it's $0.33 a kwh, or $2.67 for 8 kwh worth of gas

That energy in the gasoline is the theoretical maximum amount you would get from burning it. Running it though an ICE might get 30%, but usually less, to the wheels. There are of course some  losses in the battery charging and the electric motor, but more like 80% of the mains power used still ends up at the wheels. Add in some regen braking energy recovery, that an ICE vehicle doesn't have and the numbers get a little better, depending on the driving conditions.

 

oooooo while all this carbon saving is being shoved down our lifestyle, China and India build the equivalent of 4 coal fire electrical generation plants every week. That is what I read in MSM last week.

China has actually increased it's coal generation over recent years, but they have also realised the immediate and obvious down side of it. Remember Beijing air quality during the Olympics? So while the latest figures available say coal generation increased by 2.5% annually, wind and solar increased by 15 % and 16%, and nuclear by 5%. I haven't researched India so I don't know what they are doing. But both countries are large populations and "developing", that means the "peasants" will want more electricity. The total US electricity production has been fairly stable over the last 10 years, in spite of the population growth. Probably better efficiency with things like light bulbs, TVs, computers and heat pumps? Over the same 10 years, China's power generation has doubled as more people can afford light bulbs, heat pumps and electric scooters. 


So it's not really valid to say "But China isn't doing anything" when they are up to ~30% renewable power, compared to the US at ~20%. 

[WhitePineJunky]

A gallon of gas here is $CDN6.50 and equivalent to 19.5 kwh. So it's $0.33 a kwh, or $2.67 for 8 kwh worth of gas

That energy in the gasoline is the theoretical maximum amount you would get from burning it. Running it though an ICE might get 30%, but usually less, to the wheels. There are of course some  losses in the battery charging and the electric motor, but more like 80% of the mains power used still ends up at the wheels. Add in some regen braking energy recovery, that an ICE vehicle doesn't have and the numbers get a little better, depending on the driving conditions.

oooooo while all this carbon saving is being shoved down our lifestyle, China and India build the equivalent of 4 coal fire electrical generation plants every week. That is what I read in MSM last week.

China has actually increased it's coal generation over recent years, but they have also realised the immediate and obvious down side of it. Remember Beijing air quality during the Olympics? So while the latest figures available say coal generation increased by 2.5% annually, wind and solar increased by 15 % and 16%, and nuclear by 5%. I haven't researched India so I don't know what they are doing. But both countries are large populations and "developing", that means the "peasants" will want more electricity. The total US electricity production has been fairly stable over the last 10 years, in spite of the population growth. Probably better efficiency with things like light bulbs, TVs, computers and heat pumps? Over the same 10 years, China's power generation has doubled as more people can afford light bulbs, heat pumps and electric scooters.


So it's not really valid to say "But China isn't doing anything" when they are up to ~30% renewable power, compared to the US at ~20%.

Go on ventusky.com and hit air quality tab, go over China area, compare it to US, other areas

[Ianab]

Go on ventusky.com and hit air quality tab, go over China area, compare it to US, other areas

China has obvious air quality problems, NO argument about that. Partly because a large % of their electricity is still coal based. But they can't retire coal plants because their local demand is increasing so quickly. But they ARE actively increasing their "green" power generation, and restricting new coal based plants. 


Their Govt has the same issues as all countries, they need to keep the lights on, or the peasants get restless. 


Power reliability is an issue here in NZ too, especially with mostly "green"  generation. We still need that backup for unusual weather / seasons. So we still have a one large coal station operating at varying capacity, and various natural gas stations for peak use.  A freaking huge pumped hydro storage system is being investigated, as the alternative to standby generation is "stored" power. But it's going to cost at least $15 billion NZ sheckels to build. So no cheap option, unless you want a new coal plant, and that brings us back to China's air quality again, and no one want to breathe that. 


"The US grid won't handle the extra load"?
China has increased it's generation, and presumably it's distribution grid by ~100% over the last 10 years. The US hasn't because total power use hasn't changed much (better efficiency). New generation and upgraded distribution will of course cost $$, but it's not impractical. 

[SwampDonkey]

At 30% efficiency gas puts out 3 kwh/litre from an engine, so 12 kwh/gallon on the lower end and up to 16-20 kwh in some engines. It's higher output than you suggest. Then there is the ethonol problem with 40% less energy per gram. Government created that mess plus the fuel burned to grow the feed stock.

The US hasn't increased energy production in decades more than 4 % annually and would likely need something equivalent to the era of electrification in the 40's and 50's to meet demand if we are charging vehicles. We aren't charging many vehicles yet. As far as EV production to add to the fleet, percentages quoted are usually year over year for just EV's. If compared to gas engines, a 20% increase in EV's is barely 1% of the fleet. So I never put much stock in percentages math. We would need to about double current energy production to power an EV fleet. That's years in the making. Here in NB we have no new power projects happening, ziltch. Lots of talk, no action. Like they said back in the day, supply power and industry will come, not the other way around.

We are only just starting to make desktop and mobile computer chips both more energy efficient and faster, that is only very recent. Qualcomm and Apple are the big competitors. Intel chips have been very energy inefficient. They have been big energy hogs. You could use your laptop as  a leg warmer. Qualcomm's latest uses 70% less power than Intel's fastest and Qualcomm's is faster. A lot of computer companies are buying into Qualcomm, including Microsoft.

The energy consumption at those Bitcoin mining centres is bonkers. The one here uses 18,000 computers. One of the pluses for them locating here is cooler climate, don't need air conditioning. :D The place consumes 70 megawatts, equivalent to servicing 7000 homes. There has been a lot of politics over it calling it wasteful consumption. It's only going to support about 20 low end jobs, like security and maintenance on equipment.

[Ianab]

The energy consumption at those Bitcoin mining centres is bonkers.

100% agree on that. But that gets into the debate about blockchain tech and "mining", which is usually just doing maths for the sake of doing it, to earn "credits". Blockchain has some potentially useful applications. Doing Maths calculations just to prove you can is just a waste of Kw, and takes expensive chips away from important uses, like playing games. 

Disclaimer, I have some crypto tokens, but they are from projects that "pay" for actual science work, and the power used basically helps keep the house warm. So I have an idea about how much power a rack of PCs uses, and it all comes out as heat. in the end. So there is not much obvious difference between a rack of PCs and a 1,000w fan heater. Just the PCs can do some interesting calculations with that power. A dedicated mining rig can use 1,000w for one box, but unless you can scam to power from someone else, it's not worth it. 

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, and that heat costs more than other sources. 70 megawatts is a big power bill. :D

[WhitePineJunky]

Go on ventusky.com and hit air quality tab, go over China area, compare it to US, other areas

China has obvious air quality problems, NO argument about that. Partly because a large % of their electricity is still coal based. But they can't retire coal plants because their local demand is increasing so quickly. But they ARE actively increasing their "green" power generation, and restricting new coal based plants.


Their Govt has the same issues as all countries, they need to keep the lights on, or the peasants get restless.


Power reliability is an issue here in NZ too, especially with mostly "green"  generation. We still need that backup for unusual weather / seasons. So we still have a one large coal station operating at varying capacity, and various natural gas stations for peak use.  A freaking huge pumped hydro storage system is being investigated, as the alternative to standby generation is "stored" power. But it's going to cost at least $15 billion NZ sheckels to build. So no cheap option, unless you want a new coal plant, and that brings us back to China's air quality again, and no one want to breathe that.


"The US grid won't handle the extra load"?
China has increased it's generation, and presumably it's distribution grid by ~100% over the last 10 years. The US hasn't because total power use hasn't changed much (better efficiency). New generation and upgraded distribution will of course cost $$, but it's not impractical.

Wasn’t trying to dispute what was said but rather just wanted to point out what I realized when I hovered over their area under air quality. It’s really bad in areas like shanghai. Probably like smoking a pack of cigarettes a day
I do agree with what you are saying 

[Al_Smith]

Over the years of say the last 50-60 improvements have been made in air polution and some in other mediums .I'm
 old enough  to remember the constant smog in areas like Pittsburgh Pa and the steel mills all along the Ohio river .One time even the Cuyahoga river caught on fire because of uncontrolled industrial wastes being dumped in it .Given enough  time if measures are taken mother earth will clean up that mess but it took a long time to get this bad and it will take a long time to fix it .
As far as so called green energy and battery powered automobiles etc. you can whine and belly ache but you are not going to change it .

[SwampDonkey]

It can be like a shift in the wind to, when bad ideas get realized, the flow of money stops and we move on to other avenues to explore. 

[Al_Smith]

They've tried a lot of things for motive power like profane er propane gas and diesel engines .Two problems in colder weather the propane with the technoligy of the time didn't vaporize very well .Worked fine in Mississippi but not so well in North Dakota .The first automotive diesel engines didn't like to start,sounded like a 1920 era threshing machine and didn't have the power to pull a greasy man out of bed .You paid extra for them but they didn't hold much value for resale .However these day in pick me up trucks they do pretty well ,things evolved in some 40 years . 

[SwampDonkey]

Diesel electric works quite well, but it's the diesel engine generating the electric power. Today's battery would not get you far on a mile long freight train. ;)

[Ianab]

An experimental geothermal plant that's online now. Rather than being in an area that's got natural hot springs and bubbling mud (easy to get geothermal power there) they are in the middle of nowhere. Drill down ~7,000 ft and the rocks are HOT. Drill another well nearby and frack the space in between. Now pump cold water down one well, and hot (375 F) comes out the other well. Spin a turbine with that, and you get power. 

It's not a large scale plant, only 2-3 mW generation, but it works. Scaling up is just a matter of more wells. Geothermal heat is probably good for the next 500 million years and with this tech you don't need to be in a "Thermal" area.  So that reduces the problem of transmitting power long distances, you can get geothermal closer to where power is needed. 

New type of geothermal power plant powers data centers in the desert | Ars Technica

[Al_Smith]

You have geothermal meaning capturing the natural heat sources and geothermal meaning using the subsurface temperatures to cool or heat the refridgerant of heating/cooling devices .Not one in  the same .I had two of the later which worked to a point except the water conditions caused the units to fail after about 7-8 years .
In totaling up the cost of installation and the cost to operate over a period of about 15 years it was about equal to a standard high efficiency heating /air conditioning unit .Had I used ground loops instead of well water the end results would have been less expensive .Problem being in this part of the country it would have taken 3,500 feet of ground loops fiquiring 700 feet per ton times 5 .When it worked though it did a wonderfull job . 

[Larry]

Solar power, living the green life, saving the planet, along with keeping dollars in my pocket and away from the evil power company!

Sure hope Amazon delivers a new drive belt for my dryer today.

[Al_Smith]

--brings back memories of getting closthes lined from a closthes line .Used to hit me right in the schnozzola .Ouch !
 

[SwampDonkey]

Another case of 'not in my back yard', shuts down battery power storage site.

Power company says it's halting battery storage plan after backlash, death threat | CBC News

[stavebuyer]

Despite my vehement opposition to mandates, I am currently looking into putting up some grid tied solar panels because the current net metering offset looks like it might favorably pencil out at something close to 10% ROI at current pricing. The risk is they change the net metering structure. No way it could pay you back if you have to put in battery storage in order to use it all yourself. Not all that many panels in this area as of yet but in So Cal I think they have so many that they are already watering down the net metering credits.

[SwampDonkey]

From what I've seen over the years up here, they pay more for generation from corporate 3rd parties and a lot less for residential back feed into the grid. In fact they pay corporate double what it costs them to generate their own. How does that pencil out? Well, only government run electric can do that. You can't compete against government in any game. They regulate and control the price and favor who they see fit.  :  :D

[Ljohnsaw]

I pay $0.28 to $0.54/kwh for power from PG&E. I sized my solar to not over generate since the power company only pays $0.03/kwh. It would only make sense if I could build for free!

[stavebuyer]

My understanding is that my electric Coop won't buy any but will "bank" whatever I generate and apply it against future bills. So, if I run a surplus in June, July, and August it will be applied against any deficits in the winter months. They are sizing my system to equal my average use over the year.

[Ljohnsaw]

Yes, mine is the same thing with the private power company. They true up once a year and is on the anniversary of my install - April. Which is kinda good as I run a little surplus in February and March.

[nativewolf]

And panel prices should really fall next year, during covid a huge amount of capacity was delayed and came online this year or is coming on line this winter.  Europe had a slow economy and warehouses are full, the producers will be dumping them just to keep factories open.  I would negotiate hard on the panel pricing knowing they are going to crash a bit.  The real costs will be the install.  Ground mount or roof?

[stavebuyer]

Ground.

As with most things the devil is in the details. My highest use is in winter when solar will be lagging. A big part of the bill is fuel adjustment, Enviromental surcharge, and school tax. None of those charges get recouped, just the base .0956 energy charge credit carries forward. So, if you use double in the winter a good portion of the charges you can't recoup with extra production in June.

I feel confident rates will rise faster than inflation. Subsidies and Net metering probably will be reduced or eliminated. Best investment is probably extra insulation and good dividend stocks lol

[Southside]

Do you know if you are subject to a "feed in tariff" there?  If so they have a sunset and that's when the party is over for the little guy as reimbursement rates and volumes crash since the higher amounts were never intended to be permanent, only intended to attract enough parties to keep the process rolling. 

[stavebuyer]

Looks like here we get credit for basically the same rate as charged for 25 years. No payment for any generated above consumption that's just donated. No doubt those that "giveth" reserve the right to "taketh" and return it to the utility if favorable contributions should occur.

https://psc.ky.gov/agencies/psc/press/052021/0514_r01.pdf