bore cutting with 372 xp - bar question

[so il logger]

I'm not a gol, set the hinge and pray fan either. For what I'm doing it's slower, hard on bar tips, and the tree gives no feedback until the trigger is popped. They can and will still chair if not cut up right. I think there is a misunderstanding between gol bore to set hinge and what some call bore cutting as in cleaning out the center while leaving spurs to be clipped in sequence to fall the tree. The pic @walnut beast posted looks like the latter, what I call spur cutting. 

[Nealm66]

I really mean no disrespect I swear. Hell, I've worked around guys that make me look silly. And like I said, I dont watch any of the videos so my bad. what I know as a bore cut is boring though next to the hinge and cutting back. In old growth we try to leave just a post. I guess I just kept seeing this bore cutting as a safe way to let a high energy tree down and having lived through some complete nightmares, I didn't see this as accurate at all in any way and felt it needed to be opened up for the truth. If it hurts some feelings but saves someone from getting seriously hurt then so be it. The truth is, cutting the side straps is what's avoiding the chairs. And those need to be completed with the back cut. A bore cut is eliminating stump pull. And if you're boring from the back or from the front to get the center out on something loaded for bear your taking an unnecessary risk

[Skeans1]

Neal, you guys in the PNW deal with completely different timber than anyone else in North America. While my hat is off to anyone that falls timber out there and the knowledge it requires, I don't appreciate the condescending attitude that I often see from PNW fallers.

I would have to do a lot of learning to come out there and fall timber. I might not even have what it takes. Conversely, I'd like to see you come here and cut. I bet you'd change a lot of the way you do things, too. Methods developed for timber that is measured in feet at dbh probably wouldn't work that well in timber measured in inches at dbh.

That's the thing we do get into some of those trees out here and guess what we don't bore cut them. All methods transfer once you learn the basics of falling.

[beenthere]

For sure, setting the correct hinge thickness with the bore cut is important. And still all the critical and controlling details of what is cut and what is not cut are important. 

[Nealm66]

One thing I learned years ago cutting for Columbia helicopters with guys from Montana and Idaho was that what they lacked in skill and knowledge they made up for in sheer strength and endurance. I don't disrespect anyone making a living with a saw.

[Old Greenhorn]

I've been reading along here and I think what we have is a failure to communicate of sorts. Neal, I don't think you understand when we are generally referring to bore cutting. It has nothing to do with removing the center of the stem, although in certain circumstances, that may be added. Been there put up a good video but the stair stepping is not always part of the bore cutting process.
 Simply put, you put in your normal face cut, then bore in and through the tree from the SIDE and cut to your desired hinge thickness. Bore from both sides if the tree is bigger than you bar and form a good straight hinge, then bring the cut toward the back of the tree and stop when you get close leaving enough of a strap to hold the tree on the stump. Finally get on your feet and clip off the remaining strap from behind and to the side of the tree and get out.

 For good or bad, this technique had been discussed and debated ad-nauseum here in recent years. All techniques work for the people who are good and comfortable with them. When you say it 'dangerous' I think you are doing a dis-service to a technique I don't think you have ever tried, seen, or practiced.
 I don't do this all the time, but I do it when needed, which is often enough to be good and fast at it. Please don't tell me what I have been doing safely and with confidence for years is dangerous, it's a bit insulting.

[Nealm66]

I'm definitely not trying to insult anyone. Only trying to make awareness. I am on the same page as far as bore cutting from the side and creating the desired hinge wood and leaving the strap in the back to release. What I'm saying is this alone isn't preventing a barber chair. Again , it's the cutting of both sides after the undercut and making sure the back cut, either from a bore or from the back, completes the side cuts. I'm also saying that this can be dangerous if attempted on a high pressure tree. 

[Walnut Beast]

The big boyz cutting everyday must be doing something right! However they are doing it 💪. 

[ehp]

If your cutting big high grade timber like white oak or walnut you better bore cut every tree cause if you donot your going to loose alot of money real fast , Split one tree worth 5 grand and see how that makes you feel . Now cutting softwood trees I donot bore cut much cause you got to screw up pretty good to split those , now I have seen it done but you almost got to try to split the stump . The higher the grade in hardwood the more you need to use the bore cut cause there is no knots or defects in the tree to hold the wood together so the tree has to be pretty much totally cut off the stump before you release it 

[Walnut Beast]

The odds of somebody getting hurt by cutting trees everyday is dramatically higher than somebody that's a weekend warrior. My point is I'm going to listen to the big boyz wearing the big boy pants more than I'm going to listen to a weekend warrior wearing diapers 😂😂

[so il logger]

If your cutting big high grade timber like white oak or walnut you better bore cut every tree cause if you donot your going to loose alot of money real fast , Split one tree worth 5 grand and see how that makes you feel . Now cutting softwood trees I donot bore cut much cause you got to screw up pretty good to split those , now I have seen it done but you almost got to try to split the stump . The higher the grade in hardwood the more you need to use the bore cut cause there is no knots or defects in the tree to hold the wood together so the tree has to be pretty much totally cut off the stump before you release it

There are other ways to skin that cat, other than boring to set hinge. Big high grade valuable hardwood timber is kinda my gig and I do not bore to set hinge all that often. In this straight grain no knot, chair prone hardwood a guy don't want hinge wood at all. If a hinge is necessary then Ill make sure and have compression relief in front of the hinge to facilitate fiber flex. Even then walnut don't respond well without trying to crack

[Nealm66]

I would definitely bore cut to eliminate stump pull but I wouldn't count on it alone to prevent barber chair. 

[Nealm66]

It's a common practice to cut even Doug fir off completely as it's falling once it's on target when conditions allow it

[Skeans1]

@Nealm66 
Even red alder it's common practice.

[Ianab]

This is "Industry Best Practice" here in NZ. 
https://www.fisc.org.nz/uploads/6/6/2/5/66257655/treefelling_bpg_2017_web_new.pdf

Skim to page 43 where it states 

Bore and release cuts are used on heavy forward leaning trees that could split or let go suddenly if conventional cutting methods were used. Bore and release cuts should only be performed by experienced fallers who have training in using the technique.

And then shows you the basic method. 

Page 44 shows another method, basically a wing cut as others have mentioned. Called a "Box Cut" here. If you prefer to use that, cool, but it's more technical to get correct, and can cause more damage to the butt log. But it's another way to get forward leaners down safe. 

[Old Greenhorn]

..... Again , it's the cutting of both sides after the undercut and making sure the back cut, either from a bore or from the back, completes the side cuts.....

Neal, I still don't think we are on the same plane here. I don't understand what you are saying with that quote I placed above. What 'side cuts'? Can you explain what you are talking about?
 If one puts in some kind of a face cut, bores through to size the hinge, and comes back to leave the strap, the only other cut is the clip cut. Why do you keep saying this is dangerous? I see no way a barber chair can result form what I described above. Tell us the physics.

[Walnut Beast]

If your cutting big high grade timber like white oak or walnut you better bore cut every tree cause if you donot your going to loose alot of money real fast , Split one tree worth 5 grand and see how that makes you feel . Now cutting softwood trees I donot bore cut much cause you got to screw up pretty good to split those , now I have seen it done but you almost got to try to split the stump . The higher the grade in hardwood the more you need to use the bore cut cause there is no knots or defects in the tree to hold the wood together so the tree has to be pretty much totally cut off the stump before you release it

There are other ways to skin that cat, other than boring to set hinge. Big high grade valuable hardwood timber is kinda my gig and I do not bore to set hinge all that often. In this straight grain no knot, chair prone hardwood a guy don't want hinge wood at all. If a hinge is necessary then Ill make sure and have compression relief in front of the hinge to facilitate fiber flex. Even then walnut don't respond well without trying to crack

Let's see some of the big stuff your cutting that way. Please post pictures of the big stuff and cuts

[barbender]

They both have before.

[Walnut Beast]

I've been reading the post where is it 

[barbender]

If I'm following Neal right, he means to cut the outside edges of your hinge. I've always done that on bigger red pine (relative term😊) otherwise they tend to pull fiber badly on the side of the hinge.

[barbender]

I meant in other posts, ehp and so il logger have both posted pictures of their felling work in other posts over the years.

[Walnut Beast]

I was taught the "open face bore cut" method or something like it at the Master Logger certification school that I attended back in the mid 90's. I was green with a saw at that time so I learned from the instructions, implemented them religiously and I have been able to safely cut since learning those techniques. Many thanks to the Tennessee Forestry Association for offering that class. The only tree that has nearly gotten me since then was a badly leaning willow where I overcut my bore and did not leave enough meat for the back cut. My bad. Fortunately for me, it was just an eye opening moment with a near miss and a quick lesson learned. I don't always use this method but if the tree is anything questionable, I always face it then bore cut to set my hinge width. The final cut starts from the back side ALWAYS in order to prevent stump pull or barber chair. I will often bore 90 degrees to and through the hinge in order to set a wedge when needed - another trick taught at that school. It was the best $100 I ever invested in my education. It saved me thousands in potential medical costs and insurance claims.

That class also taught me hardhat, glasses, saw chaps and safety brake. Gloves I learned from a severe impact injury with surgery to my left hand. When running my saw, the chain brake is set after EVERY cut. It never comes off until I'm in position and ready to make a cut and after the cut is completed, the brake is on again. I was really glad I started that practice the day I tripped and landed headfirst onto the bar with the saw running. Another day I cut through my first set of chaps and into my jeans, but not my skin, made me a believer to wear the things no matter how hot they are. As it is, I always work alone which breaks rule #1 with a saw. No sense in breaking the other rules if I really want to make it home. Take the time to do it right and do it safe, you will likely make it home that night.

As for the bar length, I run a 20", 28" and a 52". I used all three sizes on my 272 before it was stolen. I still keep the same 3 sizes for my newer 385xp. 85% of the time, the 28" bar is on the head and that gets anything up to 45"+. The 52" is hated due to the imbalance and weight although it makes life easier with really big trees. It's only used if I really have to have it, which is fairly rare, and it comes off as soon as possible. The 20" has great balance and is perfect for firewood and smaller trees under 36" at the cut but sometimes it's just easier to deal with the added weight and get the reach of the 28". Bar size makes no difference when initializing a bore cut - always start at the lower bar tip position and start cutting a slot. Once the slot is started and deep enough, the bar can't jump out and you can apply heavy cut pressure, safely.

Very very good safety information!!   Things like this make you think a little harder when I've been out there cutting big stuff alone with no safety stuff on except ear protection. That's why I got a nice safety helmet that's comfortable to wear. Plenty of dead branches in bigger older trees. I probably should look into chaps. Better to be safe and never need it than to not have it and be sorry! 

[so il logger]

They both have before.

Yeah, not difficult to find. But, I'm a noobie and stuff.. :D

[so il logger]

If I'm following Neal right, he means to cut the outside edges of your hinge. I've always done that on bigger red pine (relative term😊) otherwise they tend to pull fiber badly on the side of the hinge.

Sapwood cut, like you stated it will keep from splintering up the bark. I know I have said this before but with the bore to set hinge you only have one chance to get it right. I have fell thousands of trees using that method and am confident in my abilities to read what the tree is going to allow me to get by with as far as hinge thickness and placement to get the stem directed where it needs to go. That said, once that trigger is turned loose rarely ever is there a chance to reposition the saw into the back to thin the hinge farther. I have ruined trees this way and had close calls from chairing. Depending on grain, lean, top/limb weight and species sometimes it takes very very little holding wood to cause a barber chair. My ways are not for everyone and I will not advocate it as such. If a guy gets good results with whatever they are doing then carry on

[Walnut Beast]

I know you have posted in the past but I was referring to current stuff since all the talk