Watering Wood

[DonW]

Are there millers here who as a matter of corse water wood? It means keeping wood to be milled in a submerged of semi-submerged condition for a given time prior to milling.

[stavebuyer]

Never submerged, but with sprinklers from lawn and garden on a small pile to a few million feet under full-fledged irrigation set-ups. Works wonders but not for white woods.

[DonW]

I mean under water for a minimum of six months, (spruce, for example), to indefinitely, (elm). Certain light colored woods, maple for example, suffer from watering and holly will self destruct. Though I water ash religiously.

[bigblockyeti]

For those who used to watch Ax Men, Shelby Stanga would keep cypress logs in his "bank" which was nothing more than a gator infested mill pond by all accounts.  Cypress is obviously a bit different than some of the other species mentioned from a submersion tolerance standpoint.  I would venture to guess many (most?) of the more common species regularly cut for commercial lumber wouldn't fair well underwater for 6+ months.

[DonW]

I can't think of a needled wood species that I wouldn't wager would not benefit from the treatment. They could exist but not among the conventional ones.

I've known 25 year waterd elm to fetch a premium.

Cherry and other fruit woods also are suited to watering.

If you are familiar with the Czech carpenter PETR RUZICKA who watered oak beams to restore the. Church tower in Pargue then it's clear oak is improved by watering. It's not really speculative since there are plenty of studies and examples making positive claims.

Like I mentioned,  for me watering ash for from six months to a year, (having no patients to wait longer) is my sop for tool handle material.

[Don P]

Continue

If you are familiar with the Czech carpenter PETR RUZICKA who watered oak beams to restore the. Church tower in Pargue then it's clear oak is improved by watering. It's not really speculative since there are plenty of studies and examples making positive claims.

No, but I'm interested, got links?
The reason we pond or sprinkle a pile here is to deny fungi, usually bluestain in pine, oxygen.

[DonW]

I really should have links now and I was expecting it so will make an effort even though my computer so outdated it hardly loads those websites like the article on J-store by RUZICKA

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4126403

Maybe it loads for you but what I'd really like to find is the YouTube show showing him diving to attach rigging to haul the wood out. So cool.

Will plod on...

Still the benefits are long term to nclude greater stability in use and infestation resistance and faster air drying. These things, even without external confirmation seem to me self evident. The only downside being commercial in an industrial production context.

[Don P]

I'm not opinionated one way or the other, but I don't do self evident  :D
After signing up, figuring out how, and reading through that. That was a paper on axe marks. Interesting but keep looking.

My FIL remembered the practice from his boyhood in Holland but he was asking me why they did it. Other than our reasons for keeping it fresh, I couldn't explain the reasoning.

[DonW]

They say with ChatGPT you can now get insto translations.

https://edepot.wur.nl/114117

But then you have that Dutch speaking relative to help relieve your scepticism.

It's one quick result. 

My reference book in English with short article on watering is not where I am at the moment.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is a Dutch thing much like Moon Wood in Switzerland and Germany.

[DonW]

Self evident, ok a bit overstated, I'll give it to you. But plausible is a reasonable place to begin. (And then you can learn from there) :laugh:

[wisconsitom]

I believe peeler logs sometimes get soaked.  Town I grew up in there was a veneer plant that made cheese boxes.  They'd soak the elm logs or whatever they were using prior to processing.

[Don P]

Educate me, what do you know and are thinking this does?

[customsawyer]

My understanding on watering logs is it has a few benefits. Most bad things that happen to logs sitting in a yard can be minimized by doing it. The water lowers the risk of end checking, bacteria/fungus growth and will minimize rotting. Most of the bacteria type stuff need a certain amount of air and moisture to grow. By keeping the logs wet there isn't enough air for the bad things to grow. Lots of the big mills around here keep the sprinklers going year around. I've heard that if you put enough of them in your pond it can be bad for your fish. Don't know if it is true or how many logs per acre of pond it would take to harm the fish.

[Don P]

Careful with the names of the culprits here.
Fungi need air, bacteria can be aerobic or anaerobic. You can bacterially infect logs in water. Watering or ponding keeps the air off the surface denying fungi oxygen.

I'll take a pass on opening an AI chatbot. I guess I am old school  :D

I translated enough of the abstract to see a pretty low level and lost interest in working for that.

Extractives very often protect the wood and all depending stabilize it. Clean cellulose is cotton, paper is also pretty well rinsed, with both your jeans and the saggy tarpaper on a wet roof, cellulose still shrinks and swells in response to moisture. I'm skeptical that removing the inerts changes the behavior of the wood substance itself.

I'm interested and in no hurry, but would like to see some peer reviewed real science, in English .

[Walnut Beast]

Hurricane of '38 wood. Men at war. Women ran
the mill sawing blowdown timber.



 

[DonW]

I believe peeler logs sometimes get soaked.  Town I grew up in there was a veneer plant that made cheese boxes.  They'd soak the elm logs or whatever they were using prior to processing.

RrQuote from: wisconsitom on Tue Feb 07 2023 23:21:13 GMT-0700 (MST)

I believe peeler logs sometimes get soaked.  Town I grew up in there was a veneer plant that made cheese boxes.  They'd soak the elm logs or whatever they were using prior to processing.

Cutting veneer is specifically mentioned in the link as benefitting from watering. The bark loosens in the water and is easily removed and logs can be peeled right away without steam treating.

Careful with the names of the culprits here.
Fungi need air, bacteria can be aerobic or anaerobic. You can bacterially infect logs in water. Watering or ponding keeps the air off the surface denying fungi oxygen.

I'll take a pass on opening an AI chatbot. I guess I am old school  :D

I translated enough of the abstract to see a pretty low level and lost interest in working for that.

Extractives very often protect the wood and all depending stabilize it. Clean cellulose is cotton, paper is also pretty well rinsed, with both your jeans and the saggy tarpaper on a wet roof, cellulose still shrinks and swells in response to moisture. I'm skeptical that removing the inerts changes the behavior of the wood substance itself.

I'm interested and in no hurry, but would like to see some peer reviewed real science, in English .

The question's a matter of an alteration or reduction of the woods reactivity to the environment rather than an elimination of the characteristics of cellulose, which will continue to responde to moisture, just differently, (less), after watering. Take the folk remedy for a loosened axe handle of dunking the axe in a bucket of water. Once the wood has regained equilibrium the problem the treatment was ment to address in fact is worse. The wood initially swells but then contracts even more from where it was before the soaking. 

The article also addressed the loss of sap (extractive medium), in watered pine and claims that has no effect on the wood's durability...

[Don P]

On the plus side, that turned up that the forest products labs search function wasn't working, they emailed back this morning that they have IT on it. I'm hoping they have some good info on ponding time and degrade. What I have found is stagnant water is bacterial soup, log degrade.

[Ron Wenrich]

I know a logger that buried some ash veneer underground.  It was in the shade, so the sun didn't strike it.  He held it through the summer months and sold it during the fall when the ash markets opened back up.

Are you looking to preserve the logs by ponding them or for to gain some appearance factors?  End treating will help preserve most species without any degrade.

The only logs I saw that were watered was at a handle plant.  They did it to keep the powder post beetle away. 

[DonW]

That'd be good to see what your source has. My search led to no end of frustration, mainly because of my computer's limitations. So I put it off till I'm better situated but will pick up the persuit then.

For now, concerning the stagnant water, running water is the ideal condition, sure but here is the pond my sawer in Holland uses for watering,

Snagged off his website. I have lumber stored at my place from here and was even with him when he sawed some apple for me from the swamp. And it smelled just like what it was, from the swamp. The wood is fine however as it stands now.f

[DonW]

I know a logger that buried some ash veneer underground.  It was in the shade, so the sun didn't strike it.  He held it through the summer months and sold it during the fall when the ash markets opened back up.

Are you looking to preserve the logs by ponding them or for to gain some appearance factors?  End treating will help preserve most species without any degrade.

The only logs I saw that were watered was at a handle plant.  They did it to keep the powder post beetle away.

From my perspective watering is only secondarily a matter of expediency. Primarily it is a treatment, with some of the hoped for, ( proclaimed) enhancements to include, faster seasoning, better workability, increased long term dimensional stability, (including a reduction in end checking) and resistance to infestation.

[beenthere]

sure but here is the pond my sawer in Holland uses for watering,

Holland as in the country Holland in the Netherlands?  

[DonW]

Yep. The barn at the back tells you it's Friesland though where they might not agree.

[DonW]

I the absence of direct access I've been going through this

https://www.shr.nl/uploads/pdf-files/2006-04-20-eindrapport-gewaterd-grenen.pdf

which is a study rather than a survey like the previous link, and Following the notes to references in English.For example this one on the effect of ponding on water absorption

Google Scholar

Which the first paper uses for corroborating their own claim or finding that watered sap wood, (Fir,Spruce) takes up water faster and releases it faster.

[DonW]

Preparations to catch the Spring run-off
F

[beenthere]

Missing what "preparations" referred to here. Maybe snow?

[DonW]

An absence of water disguising the presence of a (constructed) basin.

The creek flows diagonally through the center towards a stone dam. The new plank gate, (above the middle-line and left), is covering a culvert limiting what flows through. For now the bulk of the flow passing around the gate and through the culvert but with the Spring melt the pond should fill.

It's my second attempt after the first pond from a diversion failed to hold water.

[DonW]

 

   I'd put up this picture over where they were going on and on about quarter sawing and noticed some relation to this topic.
There is some clear degradation showing, at that point only a discoloration since the billet had been lying on the ground for three or so years before I'd worked it in a pinch. I'm sure, with a high degree of confidence, as they say, that had I used more foresight and ponded that billet there would have been no such degrade in this oak with possibly only a bit more loss at the ends, (depending on the length of time in the water).

[Don P]

The FPL search is still down for me. I've been using Treesearch but am not getting anything really useful. Sprinkling SYP shows no strength loss at 12 months under water but does discolor and becomes more permeable.

 I see the same comments when talking about bluestain. One of the things that protects or at least slows decay in a number of species is a lack of permeability. I personally do not view that as a positive, it is a pathway in.

At this point I view it as salesmanship. Way back at some point a sawyer had a pond full of old logs he needed to move. Was it going to be a fire sale or where these improved, aged logs? And the legend grew.

And that is why I remain skeptical till shown otherwise. I maintain the strongest, most reliable timber is the one sawn the day it is felled and is dried as rapidly as the wood allows. The moment the sap stops, the recycling begins. Ponding slows the degrade, drying stops it. Ponding buys you processing time but I do not believe it improves the wood.

[DonW]

Salesmanship?
Sure, a treacherous element no matter the perspective.

My cut and paste functions are out, sorry. Otherwise I'd try translating some of the hardly accessible jargon.

The permiability finding was in relationship to subsequent impregnation, in that case, where more permiability would be considered better. Otherwise an advantage is the increase release rate, (faster drying out after exposure to moisture), and less time for invasions to establish themselves where factors like appropriate construction, finishing etc...are also important.

[beenthere]

Huh ??  :

[DonW]

Huh ??  :

Excuses. I refer to the two studies linked to

I the absence of direct access I've been going through this

https://www.shr.nl/uploads/pdf-files/2006-04-20-eindrapport-gewaterd-grenen.pdf

which is a study rather than a survey like the previous link, and Following the notes to references in English.For example this one on the effect of ponding on water absorption

Google Scholar

Which the first paper uses for corroborating their own claim or finding that watered sap wood, (Fir,Spruce) takes up water faster and releases it faster.

One (inaccessible), the other a derivative so needing some context - why would a higher permiability rate be advantageous, (the claim of the study in the second (English) link.)

Putting the effects on impregnation aside, DonP sees the higher permiability gained through watering as disadvantageous by encouraging more infiltration. I see it as overall having the advantage of allowing moisture to escape faster than it otherwise would and denying conditions where something like a fungus could get established.

[Don P]

I'm listening but skeptical;

This is more along the lines of what I find
https://www.fs.usda.gov/research/treesearch/45302

Moisture-induced damage to wood structures, including fungal decay and fastener corrosion, require transport of chemicals. This chemical transport must occur through the cell walls. We propose that above approximately 15% MC, the hemicelluloses' Tg drops below room temperature and interconnecting networks of mechanically softened hemicelluloses percolate within cell walls to facilitate chemical transport. We also propose it is not coincidental that the onset of ionic conduction occurs at the same MC as fastener corrosion and wood decay. We therefore conclude that treatments engineered to prevent hemicelluloses passing through their glass transition, and thus preventing chemical transport through wood cell walls, have promise for inhibiting fastener corrosion and wood decay.

I did see one go by on diet and brood development of carpenter ants.

I am surprised, someone here has studied it I'm sure. Give me some more search terms.

As far as increased permeability improving decay resistance... which rots faster white pine or white oak? Or, red oak vs white oak?

[DonW]

Atbe, White pine rots faster than White oak.

Red oak faster than White oak.

I don't know what Tg - transport ? ?- or glass transition, (something about bound water?) means.

[customsawyer]

How long are you needing to store these logs? When I was growing up in CO. lots of times we would get contracts with the forest service to go in and clean up a logging site. On one site just out from Creede my dad had fell the trees in '68. A major snow hit before they got the trees off of the hill. It was '83 before the forest service would let us in there to get the trees. Even then we had to skid the logs out with mules. The point I'm getting at is due to the low humidity in that area, the logs were still good 15 years later. In your area I would stack them off the ground and saw them when I got to them.  

[DonW]

Not that I don't value the abstract aspects of the watering question, but your experience customsawyer gets at the immediate cause for my interest, handeling the wood under particular conditions. And those conditions here are harsh, low humidity, high temperatures, intense sun, wind ... and till now, from what I've seen, little to no effort to provide adequate storage on the part of the mill or lumber yard. Trees come off the mountain, get milled, (how timely may be a question), stickered, set away in a completely open, exposed yard, with consequences you'd  expect.

On the other hand there is this, maybe overriding, advantage concerning durability/preservation; that same dryness that's the initial problem is a favorable long-term condition for wood, once it's seasoned and stable, if you can tolerate or otherwise deal with pretty serious surface checking. I never worry about wood getting wet in use,(post seasoning), in fact I get impatient with the time it takes to get a bit weathered.

I appreciate the glimps of your experience, ('specially that about mule skidding). Have you been in the area recently? Not to shock you but it's tragic to ride through twixt Lake City and Creede. I would never have believed without seeing, and not to exaggerate, 99 percent kill-off by the beetle over substantial areas, let's say far as the eye can see, there.

[Don P]

There we go.
If you cannot harvest and saw fast, ponding the logs will buy you time to process them. Not indefinitely.

Drying at close to the maximum drying rate but not faster tends to produce the best lumber.

The rest of that with regards to somehow improving the lumber is probably mansplaining, smoke and mirrors, salesmanship, myth, whatever term suits.

There is usually a kernel of truth in old wives tales and practices carried on by rote. We as a species like to 'splain things, even when we have forgotten the real reason. And often over time the explanation starts sounding like PFM, pure flippin magic. That's when I quit wasting my time translating.

Then one is left, assuming there is one, trying to tease out the kernel of truth.

There may be more there, in the fullness of time. That conversation with my FIL was 45 years or more ago and recounting his memories of at least that long before. We have now had it in front of someone who will remember it. 

What I'm finding in more recent papers and above is that the processes of decay and degrade continue a bit below the fiber saturation point, a little drier than was first assumed. Water and wood is not typically a good idea.

[beenthere]

Don P
A lot of truth in what you just said.. this time I understood it  ;D ;D :D

[DonW]

The rest of that with regards to somehow improving the lumber is probably mansplaining, smoke and mirrors, salesmanship, myth, whatever term suits

Then one is left, assuming there is one, trying to tease out the kernel of truth

It's not necessary to 'splain the nature of folklore, stories, mythical thinking, (none of which I'm personally inclined to flippantly discount, by the way), since I think it's natural or obvious to account for that element in a serious way. The crux is as you say to tease out those kernels. One way is through methodical, verifiable, to the degree possible, objective testing. All very fine.
Till now my reading on this score is none too definitive, (to my disappointment, hoping for something more emphatic, of course), with results/conclusions at the margins, but favoring the plus side. Or giving some evidence of positive effect.
Sorry to test the patience of all you readers.
The function of watering/pounding as a short term storage solution, or holding mechanism has very little interest to me, just to be clear.

[DonW]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rene-Klaassen/publication/236846194_Effect_of_ponding_on_the_wood_quality_of_Scots_pine/links/00b4951c1609db03a5000000/Effect-of-ponding-on-the-wood-quality-of-Scots-pine.pdf

To ease your suffering, if you can get past the introduction, this is more or less the English version of what I'd posted up earlier.

[Don P]

Well, that pretty much confirms what I thought I was reading. 
You're not testing my patience. My credulity, maybe :D.
I see a bunch of papers there, maybe there is something better. That one wouldn't make me want to dig a pond to "improve" my timber.

From my read, the kernel here is that ponding "keeps" the log while some growth stress is relieved. That's it as far as benefits.

Retting the sapwood is not a good thing. If permeability is the goal, throw some pulping liquor in the pond too. The heartwood is unaffected. Many boards I saw have both sapwood and heartwood, what then? The slight retardation of bluestain followed by ultimately no difference is saying he isn't able to leach the food out of the sapwood in any meaningful way.

If someone wants me to cut sinkers, whatever floats their boat. If someone wants to sell me funky wood as superior, I'm gonna be shaking too hard to pull out my wallet. 

[DonW]

How many conclusions are reasonable to make from any single example? It wouldn't prompt me one way or another in and of itself. Any and all studies, at any rate only a part of the entire matter. Within its limitations, some positive effects are there like the stress relief apparent in the side by side comparison which looks significant, the claim that sap wood dries faster, in Schots pine with its sap wood heart wood ratios, it's nothing to discount either, the reduction shown in surface checking, also impressive. Considering the scope of this particular study, blue stain isn't so relavent, other than demonstrating its persistence, since it's largely cosmetic, like you've mentioned before, and the application was painted. That is to say, watering as a treatment has some relation to what's to be done with the wood.

All this reflection reminds me of some oak wood I've got in the loft. It was dredged from the Rhine where it'd been for a long time watering. It's definitely different wood, (in a positive way) to work with than, for example, this riven oak from above, if something on the emperical side doesn't stoke too much more scepticism. :laugh:

[beenthere]

DonW
Just let us know what you are going to do, and how it works out. We like pics for sure. 

Are you conducting a study, with controls? 

[DonW]

Concretely, pond filling is underway - even I would hesitate if it were a matter of constructing a pond.

And getting contracted with the Forest Service to cut wood, in the works.

ideally some control would happen. It raises the question of equivalency. Would a control  be cut together with sample wood or cut when the watered wood is processed? Probably all three's needed.

[Don P]

You wouldn't use the word provoke if I were agreeing with you  :D. Constructive criticism. 

I don't think anyone has proposed that sitting on a log for a year or more is a good idea, so no control needed there.

What properties are you improving/testing for?

I noticed, I'm not sure which paper this was related to :.

... The stems are then positioned vertically to allow the water to drain out, a process through which the bacteria can also flow out. This is also an effective method for drying stem wood without warping or cracking it 

[DonW]

Stoke, provoke, who cares.

Criticism? Here I was, thinking it terms of bouncing around differing perspectives where I simply don't have the time, patience or basic inclination for being as reductive, but not without having an appreciation. Keep it up...

What's less interesting to me are things that in another place might be more so, like fungal, bacterial and critter infestation. I leave that up to greater forces at hand. In a dry climate like this these are not such a problem I've noticed, thankfully.

Drying rate, checking and cracks, what I call workability also stability's what I'll have an eye on as more directly related to the nature of my work.

(Oops. Before I get to more it'll take a battery charge, out in the cold sitting room)

[Don P]

If you are familiar with the Czech carpenter PETR RUZICKA who watered oak beams to restore the. Church tower in Pargue then it's clear oak is improved by watering. It's not really speculative since there are plenty of studies and examples making positive claims.

This is where I came in.

[Don P]

Reading here, just some quick observations;
(PDF) Occurrence and Significance of Bacteria in Wood (researchgate.net)

The bacteria destroying pit membranes and the G layer of wood (the tension in tension wood) is a cellulolytic bacteria.

That sounds familiar. A little google, It's in the gut of things like ruminants, and termites. It cleaves cellulose and helps them break down and digest it.

Compression wood is lignin rich, that bacteria isn't interested. There may be another, they isolated 109 in the pond water, at least 26 eat wood.

Bacterial damage from ponding tends to prepare the wood for colonization by decay fungi. They are using the term bacterial attack. It lowers compressive strength and modulus of elasticity. Shake and honeycomb upon drying.

In other words, structurally there are no positives, this is the recycling end of things. Its a great way to ruin structural wood.

Now, if this is for some non structural use, yup. Look at it the same as spalting. The wood is more stable in the sense that partially digested (retted) wood is not going to fight but so hard to twist the board.

[DonW]

Shake? It's ring damage that happens while the tree is alive. Honeycombing happens during kiln drying. Maybe it's incompatible with watering, something to think about for anyone using kiln dried.

Still waiting for the Czech carpenter? I don't know. The Internet has changed a lot these last years, could be tricky.

The study looks to me to be about wood structures used in or in proximity to water, poles, pilings water controll structures. Did you know Amsterdam is built on pine pilings?

[Don P]

Or Venice, or any number of cathedrals. Ships, the uses of water soaked wood go on and on. Use what you have. Steel rusts, I still drive. I try to be mindful of what causes rust so as to not exacerbate the problem.

I am waiting for something showing that inoculating wood with bacteria is improving it. I'm comfortable saying, it does not.

"In water saturated wood (water storage by ponding or sprinkling, water front structures like wharves, piers and canal lock gates, waterlogged ships, cooling tower slats) fungal activity with the exception of soft rot fungi and yeasts,  is suppressed due to limited oxygen supply. Bacteria decomposed the unlignified parts of the cell wall within weeks.

These folks can see what our forefathers could not.

The wood becomes arguably more stable because the bonds between fibers are being broken. However, that process can also produce shake and honeycomb when drying. The kiln does not cause those defects, bacterial infection does.

Knowing that I would advise against the long term ponding of logs for structural use, which is what was being advocated. Ponding for non structural use may have some merit. Ponding out of necessity should not linger, just like the big chain processor throwing all the chickens in to wash together, that is not a good idea.

You knew it was going to come back to chickens at some point  :D.

[DonW]

A structural advocacy is taking some Liberty

What's less interesting to me are things that in another place might be more so, like fungal, bacterial and critter infestation. I leave that up to greater forces at hand. In a dry climate like this these are not such a problem I've noticed, thankfully.

Drying rate, checking and cracks, what I call workability also stability's what I'll have an eye on as more directly related to the nature of my work.

but I can see its origins.

If you are familiar with the Czech carpenter PETR RUZICKA who watered oak beams to restore the. Church tower in Pargue then it's clear oak is improved by watering. It's not really speculative since there are plenty of studies and examples making positive claims.

This is where I came in.

Ff

[DonW]

Lignin degradation is starting beyond saturation, (or if your a goat, in your moist warm gut), when/if there is bacteria introduced effecting lignin by watering, it's ok until other conditions are met.



In the case of not watered wood, not only do you still have the comparable lignin condition but additionally all the starches and other food that the watered wood has been flushed of.


In either there are conditions that have to be dealt with one way Or the other. So, what will it be, herpies or gonorrea?fftff