Wondering if I’ve been ripped off

[Stockpyler]

Boy, I sure wish I'd found this forum before my current situation.
   
I hired a local mill to harvest my timber he hired a contract logger. I'm in the Midwest. I was given a "standard"contract with a minimum amount that is based on grade and yield. Down payment was made. I had a couple of conversations with the mill as the job went on about trucks leaving at night.
   
When the work was done I was given only a check. I asked for some information about what was cut, and four days later I was given a generic letter stating total number of logs and total board feet.

Almost half of the stumps were walnut.
   
Doing the math using the several hundred logs reported in the letter (not broken down by species), each log yielded an average of 50 bf. And less than $.80 bf over the entire harvest, according to the letter.

No stump that we saw (over 150 so far) was less than 16" and many were significantly bigger.

I am the landowner and had no idea that there were services available on the front end to help. Am I crazy to think the numbers are far off? Should I be concerned? Is there any recourse? Thanks in advance for your reply!

[mudfarmer]

You might have been and you might not have been but will likely never know ???

Without knowing actual species, volume and grade breakdowns you and we would just be guessing. A big stump doesn't mean nice logs. You're in a tough spot because you probably just learned a lesson that you may not ever get to apply again in the future if nothing of value was left to harvest next time.

Is it just the lack of specific details that is making you question the deal?

[BargeMonkey]

Post a picture of the sheets, species and volume. The time to do your homework was BEFORE the wood was cut. 

[firefighter ontheside]

You should know that board feet in a log is based on the narrow end of the log, which is opposite the stump end.  The lower the tree is cut to the ground, the wider the stump will be, so don't try to do any calculations of board feet based on stump diameter.

[Stockpyler]

There were no log sheets given to me, only a generic letter stating total board feet and number of logs with no breakdowns.  I trusted this mill and have bought from him several times. And I’m only getting vague answers to my questions to him. There is still a 14-16” walnut log 18-20’ long and straight as a string that was left in my timber. The logger was here at all hours day and night for six weeks cutting. I realize now that I should have done far more research before we started. Almost all the tops are left where they fell and are   16-20 feet from the stumps. I asked for a better breakdown and he said he’d get something to me.

[BargeMonkey]

When they changed the timber theft laws they personally named the family down the road from me, they didn't even get a contract, someone would let them in 1 job and they would hit every adjoining landowner. There's still a timberjack skidder buried somewhere in the yard they stashed before the repo man got it. I had to go do 480A work for one of the adjoining landowners who got clipped, the guy was a lawyer and dug into his pocket pretty deep, still didn't matter. Again transparency is a big thing, without a scale sheet it's borderline your word against his. People get ripped off all the time, forester would have helped in your case, people scoff at the 10-20% but you would have had more accounting. Was the guy who clapped it Amish ? If they are GOOD LUCK.

[Southside]

About the only thing you could do to try and see if things are close would be to hire a forester who would measure the diameter of the tops, count them, identify species, and basically try and put an educated guess together as to what left.  It would be a very rough estimate, more likely a high and low range to account for grade, and it would cost you money.  The question becomes, how much are you willing to put into it, and just how big of a difference could it make if you could prove that you were not paid for the timber.  Basically it would be a blind Hail Mary at the buzzer, into the wind, hoping someone was there on the other end.  Sorry to hear you are in this mess. 

[Stockpyler]

Not Amish. I left a message for the dept. Of conservation to have a chat and see where I end up. I just don't feel like the math is adding up anywhere close. The Doyle scale says 50 board feet is a 14" log 8' long. And according to the dept of conservation timber pricing sheet, I feel like the numbers could be way off. 
    
I certainly don't want to falsely accuse someone of stealing but I'd like to better understand what happened
    

[firefighter ontheside]

What are you seeing for diameter of the butt end of the tops?  Have you measured logs for scale before?  I've done it many times, but i'm not a pro.  You will want to make sure you are doing it right before accusing someone of being untruthful.  For instance, that 14" log you are talking about may not be perfectly round and when measuring it you need to come up with an average diameter and not just measure the widest direction.  I buy logs occasionally from folks on FB selling their walnut logs.  Usually they have measured it at the wide end when they give a dimension and I ask for the narrow end.  Also they will usually measure it at the widest point and they will include the bark in that measurement, so when I get there to look at the log my measurement is almost always a lot smaller than what they listed on FB.

[Firewoodjoe]

Unfortunately this happens all the time. Bottom line is if you signed a contact. That's it. 

Over and over this has been discussed and forester or not the seller needs to get multiple bids and get paid up front. Even if it's divided  into units so a logger don't have to wright a huge check. But that section is done and paid for before another one starts. After it's trucked it's anyone's guess. 

[Log-it-up]

I just think it's a bad idea of hiring a "mill" to do your logging there trying make a profit on the finished product so for one: they don't care about long term forest out come and for Two: it's pretty easy for them to make up scale sheets as they go especially for some one who's a custom to the way timber harvesting works 
I work by a percentage  and pay as i go the better the wood the better for both the land and myself 
I don't scale it as it leaves but I got a pretty good idea of what's leff on the truck and have definitely made some face to face conversation with the scaler at the yard and have chosen to avoid a few mills all together 

[OH logger]

Hard to say what went on if anything but the "dept of conservation price sheets" are most likely worthless as teets on a boar. At least they are in Ohio. I am a logger and I've had landowners think they got the short end of the stick for various reasons. After a conversation and explaining how things work they understand. Bottom line it's a responsible decision for the mill to talk to you and explain how it works because it sounds like your fairly green 

[rusticretreater]

Hard to tell and you would have a hard time proving anything as you have no appraisal or estimates prior to cutting.  

Keep in mind that they also factor in the costs of the logger, the loading and trucking, the sawing and then the drying of the wood.  Stumpage price for a tree and logs already cut are two different things as well.  Many healthy looking trees have hollow cores. A 16" diameter tree may only come in at 14" after bark and sapwood are removed. Then there is the grade of wood and the sawing methods used which might lead to more or less finished product.

Folks see the finished prices of wood in stores and mistakenly think their trees are worth more than the market value.  As purchasers and sawmillers, we see this every day.  As noted above, a hard lesson.

[Ron Scott]

You may need to hire the services of a professional consulting forester or state service forester for their opinion as to if the species, volume, and value removed is near what you agreed to with the mill. If it appears that there is a large discrepancy, then you may have a case to seek retribution for damages and the resource values lost.

[Stockpyler]

Thank you all for the helpful replies! They are very much appreciated!

I am fairly green with regards to logging and I may have paid for an education. I'm a woodworker though, and I do understand the difference between a standing tree and a finished board and all that applies. My main concern is the number of board feet compared to the stump dimensions and distance to the fallen top seems very different from the letter I got. This is what I'm trying to figure out. Just looking at the Doyle scale.  
    
This timber hasn't been harvested for many many years, if ever. The amount of debris and stump count/size seems to say that far more board footage left than what I was told. Not to mention, not getting a breakdown of logs and species that were taken. 

I'm not trying to squeeze the last nickel out of this job, or put the screws to anybody. A $1000 discrepancy, though aggravating, is not worth it to me to argue. I can handle paying for the experience. 6-8 semi loads of lumber seems like a lot of board feet. 

[Hogdaddy]

What state/area are you in? @Stockpyler 

[Stockpyler]

Joplin MO area

[stavebuyer]

If you could take a yardstick and get some pictures of what was left standing as well as against a few stumps and tops would help a great deal. As an example, Red Oak lumber the past 6 months has been at record low prices. Costs to harvest and saw pretty much left a pittance for stumpage value. It would have been a disastrous time to sell Red Oak stumpage but could lead to your result.

In any case you certainly are entitled to detailed scale tickets. Guaranteed the mill measured and assigned a volume to each log in order to pay the logger as well as a quality grade. He will have those records for his taxes and under the terms of your sale you should have been furnished copies as they were harvested. The fact that you were not, is a huge red flag.

[beenthere]

6-8 semi loads of lumber 

And Stockpyler, going forward in your discussions with forester, mill, or logger.. they were loads of logs, not lumber. just sayin... 

[BargeMonkey]

 

 Poverty sticks to the big guys here, what came off a small clearing job and topped off a load. This is basically what you should have gotten. 

[TroyC]

Your situation is completely different than mine, but I did a timber sale last year in central Georgia. Yellow pine, thinned 17 acres and harvested 40 yr old trees on 35 acres. The 35 acres had been thinned of the smaller stuff 7 years ago. I did some research before hand and got advice from several people in the timber business before I signed the contract. Got 2 bids. There were 56 truck loads of wood removed, each truck carrying approx. 30 tons. I got scale tickets for each load at the conclusion and where each load went as there was pulp, sawtimber, and poles involved. I think the loads were all accounted for correctly as I had cameras recording and actually got 3 more loads than I saw on the cameras. My loads were all paid according to agreed on tonnage prices for each group.

From your situation am I correct in reading you only had 5-8 truckloads of logs or did I miss something? I know your trees were probably higher value than pine. Were you given any prices on the logs before the harvesting?

[Joe Hillmann]

Shouldn't whoever was in charge of the contract know at the very least how many loads went out, where the loads went and what money each load sold for?


And be able to provide that information to the land owner?

If they cant or wont provide the information I would want to know why they wont/can't.

I can see why they wouldnt want to show you the total money paid for the timber, because even if it is all accounted for, you will be able to see how small your cut was.  But I think that even if they did everything above board you would still feel your cut is too small.

[barbender]

Unfortunately this topic is a frequent question on the Forum. "Did I just get ripped off?" If you have to ask, there's a good chance that the answer is "yes". 

[Loony661]

Let's not forget either about how far the tree "jumps" the stump as they cut them. Here where I log, depending on terrain, species, and cut applied, my trees can "jump" a good 12-15 feet away from the stump which would give a false indication that the tree was much taller than it actually was, seeing where the top was left at. I also agree with above answers that you cannot get too excited over stump size. If I want to impress my buddies, I show them a picture of the stump. Usually I am harvesting for maximum useable wood, and that includes trimming off root flare. By the time that is done, it's quite a bit smaller... 

5-8 loads isn't a very accurate guess, IMO. Assuming you mean a self loading straight truck with a pup trailer, you can figure about 4000 board ft per truckload (at least that's max for my area). So your estimate is anywhere from 20,000 - 32,000 board ft that was trucked away. Is that within the range you were told that left??

Lastly, what you did by selling standing timber for a set price per board ft is what we call "woods run" up here. The mill is taking a gamble on whether or not it cuts out good. However, they will always favor it for themselves. They are in it to buy low and sell high..
I, like others, cut on a percentage. This is (in my opinion) truly the most fair way to cut timber. It puts the risk/reward onto both the landowner, and the logger. Each log sale I have bid out to the local mills and the highest bid buys the logs. It's as simple as that. If the timber is not good and grades low, the landowner sees that in the bids and knows he's not being ripped off. If the timber is high value, high quality, the bids reflect that as well, and both the landowner and the logger are happy at the end of the day. Unfortunately, in my opinion, you probably left money on the table. I don't necessarily think you were "taken", because you agreed to a price. But the mill who bought from you should be able to provide you with a species and footage breakdown.

[Cedarman]

You might visit the mill and ask them how they handle a load of logs when it comes in.  Do they sort by species, length, grade?  What scale do they use to measure?  If they will not show you these things, then the mill is not trustworthy.
When we sold white oak veneer logs, the buyer came out and took an hour or so to answer all our questions of how he graded, what was he looking for etc.  When done, my son and I were very comfortable about the money we received when we shook hands on the deal.
We had a professional forester mark our woods, my son logged and marketed the wood to quite a few different mills depending on what they wanted and what they were paying.  We received a tally sheet from every mill showing species, length, diameter, grade and price/foot for every log.
As a member of the Indiana Forestry and Woodland Owners Association, we hear these stories all the time and one of our missions is to help landowners grow and market timber , along with all the other things that go with owning timber land.