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Hydraulics Anywhere

Started by SawyerTed, August 25, 2023, 09:33:04 PM

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PAmizerman

When I did mine I ran both a hot and ground wire. Later I put them in a split loom protective sleeve . The back and forth in the track was wearing through the jacket. 
Woodmizer lt40 super remote 42hp Kubota diesel. Accuset II
Hydraulics everywhere
Woodmizer edger 15hp electric
Traverse 6035 telehandler
Case 95xt skidloader
http://byrnemillwork.com/
WM bms250 sharpener
WM bmt250 setter
and a lot of back breaking work!!

thechknhwk

Quote from: YellowHammer on August 25, 2023, 09:43:39 PM
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7789.msg242177#msg242177

Here's what I did, following this example.  It works very well, and took about a day of easy labor to implement.  
From looking at those pictures.  I just don't understand how to route the cables so they aren't ripped off when the mill head goes down to the far end.  Like there has to be a cable connected to the hyd pump from the battery at all times, and when the cat track is coiled in a "U" shape at the end away from the hitch how in the world can the cable stay in the cat track and still be connected to the pump?  Anyone have any other pictures or videos for this dummy it would be greatly appreciated.

SawyerTed

The cables run from the hydraulic box, down the frame of the cat track to the middle of the frame.  The cables then enter the cat track at the bottom stationary part.  They route through the cat track to the head/solenoid. 

The section between the hydraulic box and the stationary end of the cat track is what Bibbyman later posted he installed in conduit.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

YellowHammer

I looked t several different types of cables and went to my local welding shop and they had some "super duty" cable that had slightly thicker insulation than usual but was amazingly flexible.  I also ran a ground wire because some of the issues I had been having was due to the grounding system.  

As Sawyer says, the cables need to come right into the stationary frame at the start of the cat track just like all the other lines and they should lay easily and loose in the track.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

thechknhwk

Thanks fellas, I figured it out last night.  Then realized my wire is about 10' short >:(

YellowHammer

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

thechknhwk

Thought I would add some pictures for the learning disables like me :D

Pic of the battery box mess ahead of time with crappy corroded positive clamp.




Pic of cluttered relay enclosure with relay still in place.




Coil removed.




Pic of where the cables need to go.




Cable location and my splice from erroneous wire length procurement.




1/0 welding cable in the cat track.  I later zip tied it between every zip tie that was already there being careful not to go too tight.




Battery box after cleanup.




Couple pics of the hydraulic box post install.  Also needed a new pump motor, hydros are nice and fast (normal again)







I forgot to take a pic of the coil box, but I eliminated the coil so my hydraulics will work without the key which is neither a negative or positive to me, but it did give me more room to make the redundant positive connections and route my negative wire from the battery through.  I'll try to remember to take some more pics.

GAB

Quote from: thechknhwk on September 11, 2023, 07:39:28 AM
Thanks fellas, I figured it out last night.  Then realized my wire is about 10' short >:(
Count your blessings it was all at only one end.
GAB
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

PAmizerman

Keep an eye on the cable to make sure it doesn't rub through. I put mine in a protective sleeve like all the other original wires after it wore through in a few places 
Woodmizer lt40 super remote 42hp Kubota diesel. Accuset II
Hydraulics everywhere
Woodmizer edger 15hp electric
Traverse 6035 telehandler
Case 95xt skidloader
http://byrnemillwork.com/
WM bms250 sharpener
WM bmt250 setter
and a lot of back breaking work!!

Sod saw

.


It appears that the positive wire to the hydraulic pump is attached directly to the positive terminal of the battery.

If I am wrong, please ignore this note.

If I am correct, please add a fuse (Fuses are sized by wire size and motor size) at the battery to protect that long unfused wire to the hydraulic pump.   

Without a fuse to protect that long wire a fire could be the result of a mouse or wearing thru of the insulation.  Even the best quality wire is prone to wear and tear and mice don't care about burning your mill and buildings.

note to Yellowhammer:   Your high quality flexible wire might be the result of flexible rubber insulation, and/or smaller more flexible strands within your wire jacket.  More quantity of smaller gauge strands will help with flexibility .  Higher quality wire sometimes equals more dollars, but well worth it in my opinion.


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LT 40 hyd.          Solar Kiln.          Misc necessary toys.
.
It's extremely easy to make things complicated, but very difficult to keep things simple.
.

SawyerTed

 I finally got the Hydraulics Anywhere upgrade installed.   Since I am portable, the welding cable method made the most sense.   Mounting a second battery would have approached the cost of the welding cable method.  This way it's done without the battery management- the copper strip is gone.

It is exactly as Bibbyman described. 

Two 1/0 "super flexible" welding cables.  I measured and measured again and thought 75' total would be about right.   I had 8 feet left over. 

Go ahead and get lugs from whoever you get the cable from.  There are two cables from the copper strip, 1 goes to each solenoid in the hydraulic box.  Replacing this end was simple and straightforward.

I had two pieces of liquid tight pvc conduit left over from other work.  I Rand the cables through these.   One was 1" and one was 1/2".  The welding cable was a snug fit in the 1/2". I'll be replacing the 1" with 1/2" next week.  These conduit rest on the brackets that hold the energy chain track.  There's plenty of clearance there. 

The solenoid box on the head was the challenge.  It's tight and the cable is tough to get the radius needed.  Eventually I worked the cables and lugs onto the solenoid post. 

Besides the cable, all that's needed are 4 cable lugs, a grommet for the second cable to go into the solenoid box in the head, two sticks of conduit and an abrasion protection sleeve for the cables in the energy chain.

As far as fuses, the hydraulic circuits are already fused in the solenoid box on the head.   The addition of the cables only replaces the copper strip so no additional protection is needed.



 

 

I'm thinking there may be a method to spice to the cable that connects to the contact for the copper strip and avoid the connection issues in the solenoid box. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

YellowHammer

I took my copper strip off, as it seems that removing a possible cause of arcing and sparking would help protect the electrical system. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

stavebuyer


The best upgrade you can do is to eliminate the DC hydraulics and plumb in an independent hydraulic system. Whatever works best for your system be it a 3-phase electric power unit or 5 hp gas. Hydraulics anywhere, higher gpm, ability to power ancillary decks and best of all eliminate the arcing that leads to premature failure of the h-bridge.


Bibbyman was a pioneer and I shamelessly followed his lead.

Southside

Ted, I am a little slow so not understanding why the cable would be in the PVC instead of the energy chain itself.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SawyerTed

The cable does run through the energy chain. 

The cable runs from the hydraulic box where the two hydraulic pumps/solenoids are located  to the stationary section of the energy chain. Then through the energy chain to the head.  At the head the connection is made to the solenoid at the head. 

So the run from the hydraulic box to the stationary end of the energy chain runs in conduit.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Southside

Ahh - that makes sense.  I was thinking of my 70 as the hydraulic valves are in the center of the mill, along with yet another CPU, and not at the head like on the 50, basically where your hard conduit ends, forgot about that difference. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SawyerTed

I overlooked posting the total cost of the upgrade. 

Cable 75' including tax and delivery - $301.46 (8 feet left over)
Cable Lugs- $5.20 ($1.30 each)
Conduit - $27
Abrasion protection sleeve - $10.50
Grommet - $1
Total $345.16

Compared to second battery
200 amp cable connector-$32 recommended
Cables - $36 (per foot cost same as above)
Lugs - $5.20 4 as above
Battery - $160 equivalent to Woodmizer OE Deka
Battery mount and box - $63 (for portable sawing)
Total - $269.20

It cost more than twice Bibbyman's original estimate of $150.  He got his cable for half what I paid and I shopped around for two weeks.  His costs were 2006 prices and I included the conduit and abrasion sleeve.

As Yellowhammer mentioned somewhere, the welding cable solution is "one and done."  No worries about battery charging etc. 

It took about 2 1/2 hours, 45 minutes of that was putzing around with the cables and solenoid in the solenoid box.   It's tight in the box and cables need convincing to make the necessary radius.  It might be easier to make a large loop in the box. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

YellowHammer

Great job!  You will go so used to it so fast, you'll never understand how you got along without it.  It's a huge upgrade. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

SawyerTed

Quote from: stavebuyer on December 22, 2023, 06:48:59 PM

The best upgrade you can do is to eliminate the DC hydraulics and plumb in an independent hydraulic system. Whatever works best for your system be it a 3-phase electric power unit or 5 hp gas. Hydraulics anywhere, higher gpm, ability to power ancillary decks and best of all eliminate the arcing that leads to premature failure of the h-bridge.

Bibbyman was a pioneer and I shamelessly followed his lead.

I am a firm believer in R&D - ripoff and duplicate!  Bibbyman still sets the pace for some of us.  That's why I made sure to credit him.

For stationary milling the auxiliary hydraulic power unit would be ideal - either ICE or electric and especially electric!

Not so much for portable milling.  The 12 volt DC with alternator charging is simply more portable.   Elimination of the copper strip gets rid of arcing issues.   

A ground run through the energy chain is one more way to eliminate ground issues - redundancy (or deletion) of the ground shoe that rides on the bottom rail.

I have about a dozen personal logs to mill as of yesterday so I'm looking forward to exercising this modification
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Peter Drouin

Bibbyman was there back when Wood Mizer came out with the CBN sharpener and setter. Working with them to get out the info to show us.
Very smart man.    :christmas:    And a    :new_year:
Bibbyman.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

fluidpowerpro

Another option is a small engine driven hydraulic power unit. That is what I have on my mobile mill.
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

caveman

A young fellow in the southern part of our county (Polk) has an engine driven power unit attached to his older LT-40.  It sits on a pallet, and he attaches it with quick attach fittings.  When that engine is revved up a bit, that mill has lightning-fast hydraulics.  At idle speed they are faster than a Super.
Caveman

SawyerTed

All things considered, is an internal combustion engine auxiliary hydraulic unit going to speed things up enough to pay for the operational expense, transportation expense and time to set up for a portable job? 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

fluidpowerpro

Mine is mounted to my sawmill so there is no set up involved. Most mills could get by with a 6.5 HP unit, so not big gas hogs.
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

SawyerTed

Just the 6.5 hp engine will cost $400, plus pump, plus hoses plus mount for the motor.

So the auxiliary engine is more cost, ongoing operational costs and additional maintenance. 

Not for me.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

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