Lucas mill mistakes

[Ben07]

Hello to all,

I am new to sawmilling and new on this forum

I am working in the forest for almost  20 years, slowly thinking of retirement because of my back pain.

I bought an Lucas mill because it was very close to me and the price was very good.
The guy cut only 5 logs and kept the saw mill in the rain for 5 years.
Good thing that there is lots of aluminium   

I would like to ask you what  kind of  mistakes you made at the begining?

What I can see the loading and organisation of the complete work space plays a big role.

My Lucas mill it is 8-15 electric, I want to convert it to petrol, does all the frames are the same on all models??
Would I manage to get there a V twin vanguard engine 30HP, 896 cc??
I can buy this engine at very good price.
Just by measuring the space for engine it looks that it should be fine, the swing stopper and swing handle are right in the way, but what I saw on other videos it seems that it should work.

Can cou give me your feedback??

Or just let me know the dimensions of the green painted frame you have on 10-30 models, to see if are the same as on 8-15 model

Saw lots of videos with lucas mill but not so many  on how to load the logs in, longer logs, heavier logs, set up and so on.
I will have logs maximum 12 inch in diameter but the length 19,6 feet= 6 meters, same as the length of my rails.
Logs fixing to stay stable would be also interesting to see, actually saw one good video on that.

Thanks for reading,

Ben

[GAB]

Ben:
My experience with Lucas sawmills is very little, mostly watching.  However I always thought they were designed to handle large logs.
Your comment "I will have logs maximum 12" in diameter" makes me wonder how to hold them steady while sawing to avoid an accident.
GAB

[Ben07]

Yes, you are right, Lucas sawmill is for big logs, but I saw few several good option how the fix this small logs .
Actually I was thinking that to have lucas mill for so small logs it will be a negative point  but it is not, I saw guys milling 5 logs at the time, this save yo lots of time.

I asume it can be very good sawmill for one guy operation and moving around.
I will keep on posting :D :D :D , I am sure there are negative points

When I look to the other saw mills, with rails, and they deliver them without any lifting equipment, guys load the logs by hand because they dont have a frontloader and dont want to buy one ( no place, no interest to invest more,etc,), that it is very time consuming.
I am talking here about non profesional  saw mills.

[Ben07]

 

 

[Ben07]

 
The frame without engine




 

[Ianab]

Your comment "I will have logs maximum 12" in diameter" makes me wonder how to hold them steady while sawing to avoid an accident.

Swing blades can cut smaller logs perfectly OK, but you have rig up your own bunk / support arrangement. Lucas actually sells some little aluminium dogs that you can attach to the wooden bunks that help hold smaller logs in place.  Large logs are of course the mills strong point, and that's where you will get best production, but it's also fairly simple to set up a home made log deck and clamping system to handle smaller logs efficiently. It's just not a standard feature built into the mill as a heavy duty bunk system would cancel out the "portable" part of the design.

[Ben07]

Thanks Ianab,
yes I saw few videos where people made quite good setup for small logs.
I have other questions, for everybody.
How many blades you usually have??2-4??
How long a blade lasts if you are lucky and dont have stones or nails in the wood??
When a blade it is too hot??
I worked as well like cnc machinist and I know that having lower RPM  and working slower doubled the life of tools.
I assume the same rules appplies here as well.

Thanks again,
Ben

[Ianab]

Because I only saw as a hobby, I have 2 blades. If I wreck one, a good saw Doc is 30 mins away and will re-tip it next day. If you are more remote or can't afford downtime, then you might want a couple more spares, or your own re-tipping jig.

Blade life? The blade itself will last for years. Multiple sharpens and re-tips at least. Eventually the blades wear out, develops cracks and needs to be replaced, but compared to a band mill, they will have gone through hundreds of bands by then. So you do have to  account for blade wear, just it's not a large $ amount. But you have to eventually replace a $500 blade, vs the ~500 band blades.  So blade cost are much less. 

My mill is only a 6" cut, 13hp machine. It doesn't actually need blade cooling. Pushing a bigger saw with more HP, then you can heat up the blade, so they run a cooling drip. May or may not be needed depending on what you are doing. Cutting softwood 4x2? Probably not needed. Do a few cuts, shut down and feel the blade. Slightly warm? No worries.

Not sure on the RPM issue. There is some optimum speed and angle for a saw tooth to hit the wood.  But one  "rule of thumb" is about 2 or 3 hp for each tooth on the blade, and a basic "tip speed" for the saw, Too fast and the mill bogs down, too slow and the blade  isn't working efficiently.  The hp and tip speed numbers seem consistent whether you have 8hp and 4 teeth, or 100hp and a 50 tooth blade,. More hp and cutters of course cuts faster, but the bite each tooth takes is similar.

A small swing mill blade runs at a higher rpm and than a big circle saws. But the cutters hit the wood  at a similar speed, and throw out the same sort of chips. Just not as fast as a bigger blade with ~100 hp  diesel pushing it.

[Brad_bb]

One issue I see, and maybe you can educate me on this, is how do you efficiently load logs into position? 
There is a guy local to me with Lucal slabbing mill, and he loads all his logs with the clam shell grapple on his grapple tree truck.  Picks them up and set them in place and visa versa.

[SawyerTed]

Mistakes?   MISTAKES?!?   

You can't move forward without making mistakes!   

Sometimes the best solutions come from people who "don't know better." 

A mistake may become the next innovation! 

Keep moving forward!

[Ben07]

One issue I see, and maybe you can educate me on this, is how do you efficiently load logs into position? 
There is a guy local to me with Lucal slabbing mill, and he loads all his logs with the clam shell grapple on his grapple tree truck.  Picks them up and set them in place and visa versa.

Hello Ted,
Yes, loading and positioning the wood it is a big time saver.
I watch lots of videos, most of people show how fast they can mill, but very few with loading the logs.

Then I believe it is quite specific for each job, diameter, lengths, etc, etc.
I will post few videos when I start millig.
I dont have front loader and I want to cutt 6m (3.3 feet).

Ben

[Ben07]

Mistakes?   MISTAKES?!?   

You can't move forward without making mistakes!   

Sometimes the best solutions come from people who "don't know better." 

A mistake may become the next innovation! 

Keep moving forward!

You said it all and perfectly, nothing to ad more.

Thanks,
Ben

[Don P]

You mentioned dragging logs in. You can dig a trench and drop the crossbars into that to avoid dragging them. Usually a couple of slabs will make a skid row you can pull them down.

I usually load with a small articulated loader. The extended arms let me reach in past the midpoint of the bunks. My partner has been at a friends milling this week and they had his skidsteer on site. After some time fiddling with dialing everything in for flipping and making beams... the skidsteer hit the mill a half dozen times. They got it done and were within 3/16" with everything but wrong machine for the job they were doing (snaking long logs between the posts.)

5 blades, you can make it on fewer. A blue spot is usually a sign of needing hammering, you have raised a blister. Most of the time even though I can get them hot, they hold their tension well compared to the big circle mill blades.

[Ben07]

 
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 ]https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/70955/IMG_5267.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1702142043[/img]
 

[Ben07]

Hello,
here are few pics with my Lucas saw mill
The rails holders were quite rusty, I cleaned properly, treat with FERTAN and metal paint, will see how it holds,
thinking to weld a reinforcement with L profile under, will see.

Today I got the engine, changed oil and filters, Vanguard 896cc, 31HP.
I will order a 2 pulley 40% and 20% smaller the on the saw mill but need some feedback from you guys.

Engine power  chart for this engine shows at 2200 RPM it gives 18HP a smaller pulley will make turn the saw faster.
The reason is that i want to save the engine and not run at 3000RPM if not necessary and mainly to not everheat the engine, in summer we have 35C´/95F

Of course there is the torque factor which plays a big role as well. I am thinking also that maybe it would be better to order the 1:1 pulley  and just run the engine at 2200-2500 RPM and go slower, this means less heat longer saw life, less sharpening.

Not sure what it is your experience, the engine not having an RPM controler it is hard to say, most of you I guess go by feeling, which it will be my case as well.


I asumme you dont run at  3600RPM as this is maxim RPM of the engine or?? Would be good to know your thoughts,  I would say 75% of engine capacity,  this means 2700RPM  or??
Your experience is important to know to get the right RPM ratio. Safest way would be to go 1:1 ratio ones I work few days and get to feel the saw I will figure out.

The electrical motor was rated 3000RPM and it is 12KW (15HP),
The circular saw I worked in the past same diameter +/-  as this one, was indicated 2700 RPM max., if I went faster you could see that the saw himself was vibrating a lot, but this was until it entered in the wood and started to cut, ones was cutting, it was more stable.

Thanks,

Ben

[Ben07]

You mentioned dragging logs in.

Thanks for your feedback.

Yes.this was my idea as well, not sure where I will place the sawmill but most probably on flat pawed ground with stones. I was thinking to put this crossbars upside down, screw few wood boards, best 6m long, flip up side, then make some holes in the boards  and nail to the ground.
I have a forklift and it is only 2WD,  made to run on stable ground.
There will be lots of manipulation so I need forklift, and if my loading with winch will not work or it will be very slow, I will have to use forklift.
I need about 30 pieces of 6x6´´ at full length of the saw, after this done I will decide what would be the best to go forward.
I want sell the rest of the boards, selling it at 6m or 5m would make a difference on the price.

Of course I plan to have round logs under the pulled log so it goes  easier.

This are the plans but will see after testing :D :D :D :D

to be honest it is always exciting when you cget a new toy in the garage.
Just waiting toinstallthe engine and make few cutts.
it is raining here for weeks but ones ready I am sure i will go and test it even if I get completely wet :D :D :D :D :D

[Ben07]

 

 

 

[Don P]

I run at 3600 engine rpm, no blade wobble to speak of. The hour meter has been out for some time but the engine doesn't owe us anything at this point and it is not using oil to speak of. Try another blade and if the wobble is still there set up a dial indicator on the saw flange.

On the pic of logs 3 wide, notice his bunks end with a sloped cut right at the rails. For logs that fit between the rails I've run ~10' bunks out beyond the rails. load the bunks outboard of the mill and roll the logs in.

If you are stationary and this is a frequent cut length, I'd look at fabbing up longer rails.

[Ianab]

I'd be inclined to keep the revs up, over 3,000 at least? Reason is that the motor is then running on the governor more of the time. So you are running at a speed where it can make up to 30hp, but you are only using 20, then the engine is effectively running at only 2/3 throttle. Being an industrial engine it's max speed is already governed down to a lower speed to improve durability. Compare it to say a motorcycle engine of the same cc size, which might run up to 8,000 rpm, but you wouldn't expect it to last very long if you ran it that speed all day. But cruise down the road in top gear, 1/2 throttle @ 3,000 revs and it will go for years. 

Running at a lower rpm also means the cooling fan runs slower, so loading an engine to max at lower revs can make it run hotter.

[longtime lurker]

Saws have to run at the right rim speed to cut.
Saws at rim speed are power hogs... You don't turn a saw faster to cut faster you give it more power so it can bite harder. Once you have more power than you need you can add extra teeth ad infinitum until you've hit the practical limit of the technology which is about 5HP for every inch of saw in the wood and as many teeth and gullets as required to remove the sawdust.

You can't go there with a Lucas because the frame isn't designed to absorb anywhere near that amount of power, it's a lightweight portable sawmill not a fixed production bench. But the principal still applies, your cutting slower because you have less power so less teeth so it doesn't need to weigh 4 tons to stay stable.

Trying to get more engine life on a fundamentally disposable lawnmower motor by downrating it is false economy. You need more power not less, all you're doing is making the engine run more hours to do the same amount of work.

[moodnacreek]

A circle saw blade needs enough rim speed [rpm] to run flat in the cut. Whatever this speed is the motor needs to run a maximun torque whatever that speed is. Said another way when the motor is running at max. torque speed the saw is turning at it's hammered speed+ a little. To saw faster you feed faster to the point of blade wobble or plugging the saw gullets. When the saw starts to wobble it will score the wood and use more power and heat and warp. To speed the saw beyond it's correct speed will make finer sawdust that also can heat the saw. Circle saws need to be fed as fast as possible to increase sawdust chip size. A saw fed fast will stay sharp longer.

[Ben07]

 Thanks, thanks.
This is one  of the reasons why I go on the forums , I try to read as much possible ,open a thread and expose my intensions or stupidity if you want me to be honest.
People with kowlegde, will read maybe laugh and tell you how the things are working in the reality and what it is the right thing to do.
Of course other people  can read and learn

Thank you guys again, this is really pure knowledge, maybe very basic for experienced guys but for a newbi like me definetely it save me some work, time and money, not even mention the frustrations >:( >:( >:(

Guys let me know when you visit Europe, France, I will pay a bere or give you my car to visit around or  both  .

Thanks,
Ben

[Ben07]

Hello guys,

I would like to ask few questions, all lucas mill owners.
If you did read the post I am converting an electrical 8-15 mill to a petrol with a 30 HP Vanguard engine.
I want to place an order to local dealer (600km away, the only one dealer in France) for the missing parts.
Basically I have the engine and everything else what comes around it it is missing
clutch
petrol tank
brake cable or emergency cable
hours meter
If you know about more items needed please let me know.
Some of the parts like clutch I did not found at all here in Europe, engine shaft it is 1-7/16".
For the rest of small parts I prefer to order them from lucas mill to be original even if I can find a replacement.

Thanks,

Ben

[chep]

Seems like buying a generator for your electric mill would be more economical? The gas motors are all very nicely sized and suited well to the mill, but seems like you may be setting yourself up for a struggle? But ambitious and admirable at the same time.
I highly recommend only loading logs under the rails. I raise them up every time to load. The times I've tried to set logs on over the rails were very bad....
But I have also never milled anything over 16ft. I don't know how I would even do it. Getting logs in thru the ends sounds like a tough and time consuming project. I'm sure it's possible of course. I have also found that juice isn't worth the squeeze on logs under 10 inches small end. The setup time ain't worth it. If all you have are small logs, a band mill is the way to go.
I use the lucas aluminum clamps on bigger logs, but on smaller logs always find my yield suffers with those clamps. To much meat left on the bone. I use felling wedges turned backwards (fat side to the log) and then put a screw in them to the bunks to hold them. That way my blade is only hitting plastic when I try to squeeze out that final board...
Make sure the mill is parallel and square and level. Otherwise u are asking for trouble. There is an old thread by sigidi you should search for
Cheers

[Ben07]

Seems like buying a generator for your electric mill would be more economical?

Hi,
an 15KW generator cost me +2000Euros, this was my first intention as well, because I could use it for other aplications in field.
But I  have the engine with 800Eu, maybe 150 eu to clean the carb and some general maintenance, all the rest of the parts I have, the fuel tank I have bought with 15 Eu, marine tank with filter, just need  to plug the hose from engine.   
The problem is that I cant take generator and the saw with me at the same time and I dont have any storage place.
Most probably the saw I will use only one year, cut for me what I need and then resell it.

I do not have problem , welding, drilling, have also a milling machine300x500mm parts, but manual, so simple parts.
SO I am quite used to do this kind of stuff.
Nevertheless I can tell you from my own experience that several times it happen that I wrongly estimated the things and found myself  in making it more expensive then buying new machinery.
But I love to do this kind of work, especialy when it save me some money.
I got the lucas mill with 4000Eu, so there is plenty of money to be spend :D :D, and still be OK.
I asume 1000Eu or little less and I should be fine.
But will see how the things will go.   

Regarding the log loading , yes, it is quite a big subject and very important one because it consume time, everything what it is less then 6m ( max length of the rail) I will load with a forklift, and yes, under the rails, no need to  have chains and extra work to chain the log, unchain, etc, etc.
For 6m I think I will winch the logs in from the end of the saw.
Will see how that work.
I have also extentions 2m extra, but the previos owner told me that extra 2 legs are needed to install to have it more stable.

We go step by step, learn from each mistake.

The most hard workwill be to cut the forest, clean the logs, try to winch as less possible to not have stones in the logs.
I have only a small 4x4 tractor so it will be chalenging. The forklift it is not all terrain.

Thanks,

Ben
   

B