Simonds standall teeth quality control issue - anyone else notice?

[Ron Wenrich]

You can swage and hand file a chrome tooth after you knock off the chrome from the face.  I didn't swage teeth very often and didn't have many problems.  If I wrecked a tooth, it was easier to insert a good used tooth than to spend the time to bring it around to being usable.  When I was down, 4 guys were standing around.

[SheSaws]

One problem with carbide bits is are only made in stand-all style. Many old time sawyers disliked stand-all bits but to use carbide you are stuck with them. Stand-alls are hard on shoulders and take more power.  There may still be another choice and that is tungsweld bits that I think can be special ordered. The supplier who has them I can not mention here.

I don't think I'm gonna be able to talk my bosses into buying special order teeth just to try them. They've been using these stand-all chrome bits for 20* years here and they're pretty resistant to change. Not to mention we aren't looking for a nice clean finish on our pieces, they can be as rough as hell as long as they're square

[Jeff]

If'n  yer sawing and your surface is rough, in my humble opinion it means your saw ain't right, which means you ain't sawing right. Or at least as right as you could be.

[scsmith42]

One problem with carbide bits is are only made in stand-all style. Many old time sawyers disliked stand-all bits but to use carbide you are stuck with them. Stand-alls are hard on shoulders and take more power.  There may still be another choice and that is tungsweld bits that I think can be special ordered. The supplier who has them I can not mention here.

I don't think I'm gonna be able to talk my bosses into buying special order teeth just to try them. They've been using these stand-all chrome bits for 20* years here and they're pretty resistant to change. Not to mention we aren't looking for a nice clean finish on our pieces, they can be as rough as hell as long as they're square

Sometimes a vendor / manufacturer will send some free samples in order to try to land a larger sale.  You might try talking with your existing supplier to see if they would be willing to send you a set.

[moodnacreek]

I find that those who run 2 1/2 saws use only stand-all. Sawing frozen logs almost requires stand-all or frost shanks. These shanks are no longer available in the 2 1/2 [but I have them] With B or F style many use regular bits with the 'frost' or super shank. Problem is once you put in these frost, or winter or super shanks you can't really use stand-all or carbide. The chrome bits come in regular, long and stand-all. I think these where developed for wood like spruce. Chrome works as a lubricant and reduces heat on the rim of the saw that could be a problem for a mill sawing really fast in wood that saws hairy.

[SheSaws]

If'n  yer sawing and your surface is rough, in my humble opinion it means your saw ain't right, which means you ain't sawing right. Or at least as right as you could be.

Hmmm. Good thing I didn't ask for your opinion on my saw setup.

[SheSaws]

I find that those who run 2 1/2 saws use only stand-all. Sawing frozen logs almost requires stand-all or frost shanks. These shanks are no longer available in the 2 1/2 [but I have them] With B or F style many use regular bits with the 'frost' or super shank. Problem is once you put in these frost, or winter or super shanks you can't really use stand-all or carbide. The chrome bits come in regular, long and stand-all. I think these where developed for wood like spruce. Chrome works as a lubricant and reduces heat on the rim of the saw that could be a problem for a mill sawing really fast in wood that saws hairy.

I am cutting frozen logs almost exclusively all winter so that's def an issue but I am 100% certain my most recent problems were related to these *DanG teeth. I found an old box of the exact same teeth that were sharp out of the box and they cut perfect. Put some of the dull but sharpened ones on and they cut like garbage. The saw immediately started pulling away from the cant even tho they were square and sharp

[Jeff]

My comment is solid. If you have a rough cut your saw isn't sawing as good as it should be. Do you have a spider gauge to check to see if your bits and shanks are truly set square, and if they are, do the teeth need side dressed? Is your cut rough because you are slapping on the gig back? 

When you gotta deal with crap new teeth, you have to learn how to make em cut because that's what you have. If they are set correctly, sharp and straight, and your saw is sawing smooth and running true you will have more power and more production. I used a Jockey, but the file is how you get a truly sharp saw. Square things up when you have to with the jockey, but anytime you have to stop the saw for something, it doesn't take but a couple minutes to make a couple sharpening, or adjusting swipes on each tooth.

Ron didn't swage much. I did. We had a contest on here years ago on how thin you could saw. Of course the bandsaw guys could make paper, but I was right there with them on my entry. 56" f pattern saw, 9/32 simonds bits with super shanks. HATED HATED HATED standalls.

[Ron Wenrich]

I know that there were times that new teeth ran ragged.  When inspected, the teeth weren't consistent out of the box.  I could find wild teeth and get them into shape.  A spider gauge is what you need, especially for side dressing.  But, for a fast check, I would put my file across 3 tooth tips and you could find the long one pretty quick.  I also mainly hand filed.

I'm thinking that the manufacturing process involves making 5 teeth at a time.  I can't find anything on the internet to explain or show the process. 

I'd be interested in the type of operation you're in.  I'm assuming you're running an automatic mill, but would be interested in your saw type, shank type, saw speed, product sawn, etc.  The mgmt for the mills that I sawed at pretty much left me alone, and would make recommended changes as long as they were getting the production and quality they needed. 

[SheSaws]

I know that there were times that new teeth ran ragged.  When inspected, the teeth weren't consistent out of the box.  I could find wild teeth and get them into shape.  A spider gauge is what you need, especially for side dressing.  But, for a fast check, I would put my file across 3 tooth tips and you could find the long one pretty quick.  I also mainly hand filed.

I'm thinking that the manufacturing process involves making 5 teeth at a time.  I can't find anything on the internet to explain or show the process. 

I'd be interested in the type of operation you're in.  I'm assuming you're running an automatic mill, but would be interested in your saw type, shank type, saw speed, product sawn, etc.  The mgmt for the mills that I sawed at pretty much left me alone, and would make recommended changes as long as they were getting the production and quality they needed. 

I have a photo of my main saw on my profile. I am running an HMC automatic with 2 edger blades. Main saw is 660 rpm with f8 style shank and the stand all teeth I mentioned.  I'm not sure how long the track is, maybe 65ft? (Before this I worked on a manual circular mill with a chase sled). I have a 13ft carriage with 3 pneumatically controlled bunks that are connected to a manual clock and a touch screen computer. Depending on what I'm cutting I use the manual clock or the computer.

Our main product is railroad ties (8ft long), bridge Timbers, and switch ties (12ft-18ft long) and we make 1x boards, 4"x6"s and other misc custom orders. I operate the main mill at my place and there is a secondary mill that doesn't have a top saw that cuts smaller logs.

We don't really track our board footage here since that's not our main product but I run about 140 logs through my mill every day. That makes about 120-130 ties (only one tie per log as per our grading standards).

I'm also certified to grade the ties for the railroad.

I kind of got thrown into this job with very little training for this specific mill. I am currently the second most experienced sawyer here with only 1 year at this facility and only operating a manual mill before this.that said I run my mill SMOOTH and keep everything running to military standards because we have a military contract for large Timbers that requires tight tolerances. I am only of the only sawyers in my state that was able to regularly produce that consistency and quantity, I am proud to say 

[barbender]

Wow SheSaws, you find a forum on the internet that I would venture has more expert experience on Circle headrigs than anywhere else you can find, and you are going to pipe off to the owner of the Forum (who has also sawed millions of feet of lumber on a commercial mill) that you didn't ask for his opinion? In the first place, if you want to learn, you should be taking notes on his opinion- I would be. 

 The second point is, you have bad manners. If you came into my house, sat down for coffee, and started talking to me like I was a dummy, I would tell you to leave. It's no different here. 

 The Forestry Forum is a healthy place for discussion because Jeff has always demanded people treat each other respectfully. There are people that come here and hang out that have nothing to do with anything forestry related- they just enjoy the atmosphere. Contribute to that.

[SheSaws]

Wow SheSaws, you find a forum on the internet that I would venture has more expert experience on Circle headrigs than anywhere else you can find, and you are going to pipe off to the owner of the Forum (who has also sawed millions of feet of lumber on a commercial mill) that you didn't ask for his opinion? In the first place, if you want to learn, you should be taking notes on his opinion- I would be.

 The second point is, you have bad manners. If you came into my house, sat down for coffee, and started talking to me like I was a dummy, I would tell you to leave. It's no different here.

 The Forestry Forum is a healthy place for discussion because Jeff has always demanded people treat each other respectfully. There are people that come here and hang out that have nothing to do with anything forestry related- they just enjoy the atmosphere. Contribute to that.

Cool story. As a woman in this field I have learned to never bother with the unsolicited advice from a random man on the internet. Even if he does own the forum.

I am here to learn and connect but I didn't ask for advice on setting up my mill. I gave zero details that could result in useful advice anyways

[barbender]

You being a woman has zero to do with it, your attitude does. Shape up, or ship out.

[Ron Wenrich]

The last mill I ran was a Canadian Morbark, 4 headblock hydraulic/electric with a vertical edger.  We were running about 710 RPM.  I ran a B pattern saw, which has larger gullets and fewer teeth than the F pattern.  I also started on a manual mill.  I've run several manual mills for different people.



I sawed mainly grade in oak, tulip poplar, ash and a bit of white pine, walnut and hickory.  I cut a bunch of bridge timber, but that market pretty well dried up.  Blocking was ties, switch ties (10-23'), and 3 1/2 x 6".  I was doing about 2-2 1/2 MMbf annually. 

I'm not sure of locale, but in my area, the winter has been fairly mild.  You talked about frozen logs, and I'm wondering if they're frozen all the way through.  I know I would have problems if the logs were part way frozen.  Logs that laid on the ground even after things warmed up would be part way frozen. 

I'm leaning on being junk teeth. 

[SheSaws]

You being a woman has zero to do with it, your attitude does. Shape up, or ship out.

I'm not the one crying bc someone didn't kiss my feet for my unsolicited advice. Stay mad I guess.

[SheSaws]

The last mill I ran was a Canadian Morbark, 4 headblock hydraulic/electric with a vertical edger.  We were running about 710 RPM.  I ran a B pattern saw, which has larger gullets and fewer teeth than the F pattern.  I also started on a manual mill.  I've run several manual mills for different people.



I sawed mainly grade in oak, tulip poplar, ash and a bit of white pine, walnut and hickory.  I cut a bunch of bridge timber, but that market pretty well dried up.  Blocking was ties, switch ties (10-23'), and 3 1/2 x 6".  I was doing about 2-2 1/2 MMbf annually. 

I'm not sure of locale, but in my area, the winter has been fairly mild.  You talked about frozen logs, and I'm wondering if they're frozen all the way through.  I know I would have problems if the logs were part way frozen.  Logs that laid on the ground even after things warmed up would be part way frozen. 

I'm leaning on being junk teeth. 

Some of my logs this last week were def frozen pretty deep. The winter was mild up until this week but I've been seeing ice crystals inside the logs that were partially rotted so I assume the better logs have some ice inside too. Lots of ice on the tips too so I know the teeth are getting hammered but they're not standing up to the ice the way have in weeks past when we had sub-30° temps. It only makes sense the problem is the teeth because the teeth look like [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] right out of the box. Occum's razor says it's the obvious answer. Also the blade I am running has historically been one of my favorite blades. I was able to run it with an entire tooth, shank, and shoulder ripped off without any impact on my quality. It's a good solid blade so I really do believe the problem here is this new box of teeth. They suck!

I also looked at the dates and it seems all the boxes that are bad are 2021 and 2022 on them. I was surprised to see the dates span an entire year though

[Jeff]

You being a woman has zero to do with it, your attitude does. Shape up, or ship out.

I'm not the one crying bc someone didn't kiss my feet for my unsolicited advice. Stay mad I guess.

I would of been down right grateful to have had a resource like this when I was thrown into the fulltime headsawyer job as an 18 year old kid. I had ludstrums book in a desk drawer.  Those experiences led to the creation of this forum. Id seek out information anywhere I could get it. I remember knowing what I knew a year in.

 I still had not learned You dont know what you dont know and you better learn from everything.

I could care less what or who you are past you came to the place built FOR people like you.  You have broke several rules  on conduct and yet you are still here. Know this if or when you get banned from this resource forever, it was because you had an attitude and a foul mouth via your keyboard.

[Dave Shepard]

She clearly has a chip on her shoulder, and not of the sawdust variety. I always find it very cool to have women participating here in what is certainly a male dominated field. This is a discussion forum. People naturally want to discuss the topic at hand. It's not mansplaining. It's not talking down to anyone. Just a handful of folks who a DanG lifetime of experience in the sawbox that want to help solve a problem. Is that why you are here? To solve a problem, or to create one?

Dave, whose mother is a dairy farmer of about 55 years, which means she's also a truck driver, diesel mechanic, plumber, electrician, veterinarian, heavy equipment operator, carpenter, not to mention raised a family at the same time. You clearly want to bring gender into this discussion, but I can assure you that is pretty silly here. Would you prefer to be set straight by a female administrator? We have those here, too.

[Old Greenhorn]

SHesaws, you sound like a person that likes blunt talk, because that's what you use. So I will take that tack with you and hope you appreciate it.
First, nobody is asking you to kiss anybody's anything. We are EXPECTING you to keep a civil tongue in your head when you are writing here on the forum. If you expect everything you read here to relate specifically to your exact question and need, you might be in the wrong place. None of us were put here to serve you. The correct answer when you read something that doesn't suit your current needs is "Thank you, I hadn't considered that" and move on, or if you prefer, no answer at all. Either way, good manners go a LONG way toward learning more about what you are interested in. In NO event will any of us take guff directed at our fellow members. Jeff has worked very hard for decades to build a friendly family atmosphere where everyone is welcomed in and invited to partake, provided they abide by the very simple rules. We LIKE being here, but attitudes like yours turn folks off and they stay away. I have a family here of friends I have made around the country and the world. Many on this continent I have had the honor of shaking hands with and found them to be fine and knowledgeable folks. I enjoy their company here and especially when we have those rare get togethers, they are priceless to me as both resources and friends. Therefore, when you get nasty with them it don't sit well with me. I am sure you understand that.

You strike me as what we used to call a five twenty kind of person. That is, 5 years on the job and 20 years experience. Just being blunt. I used to be like that too when I was new (5 years) in my chosen trade. I found out real quick when I wound up in a company with a lot of highly gifted journeymen that I really didn't know squat, I was just smarter than most at my previous jobs. They took my surly attitude and said " OK, you're  smart guy, you don't need me, I'm sure you can figure it out" They never gave me another piece of advice or a helping hand after that and let me 'swing in the breeze'. It didn't take long for me to fail badly and expensively. I learned the hard way and those folks then taught me most of what I know today, after my attitude came around.

So as one of my heroes here on the forum says "You do you". But, be polite and remember, we are here because we want to be, not because anybody makes money giving away free advice that they have earned over the course of their careers. You blew off some very knowledgeable folks already, so I guess you are still in the 'don't know what you don't know' phase.

And just by the way, here's some more advice you can ignore: If you are having such an issue with those teeth why aren't you on the horn with your supplier or the manufacturer? Don't tell me it's your companies fault, YOU are the sawyer, you need to get those guys making good bits. Pick up the phone. Whining about it here won't get you good cutting tools and THAT is your problem.

With that, I am out.

[Southside]

You are blaming the debarker operator for not doing a thorough job, you are blaming your bosses for not being willing to change, you are blaming the tooth manufacturer for producing a sub par product, you are blaming the weather for being weather, you blame society and gender issues, and you snap back at people who try to help - very, very, experienced people.  Am I missing anything?  This isn't Facebook, many of us actually know each other, we call, text, visit in person across State and Country lines etc.

You really want to re-think your approach here. 

[YellowHammer]

You have a very interesting problem solving approach - ask for advice assuming you already know the answer, then insult those who chime in, especially the ones with 10X your experience base, or more.  Dubious strategy at best, and I think I can see why your bosses are not overly receptive to your ideas. 
 
Oops, sorry, more unsolicited advice from a Y chromosome. 

[SheSaws]

She clearly has a chip on her shoulder, and not of the sawdust variety. I always find it very cool to have women participating here in what is certainly a male dominated field. This is a discussion forum. People naturally want to discuss the topic at hand. It's not mansplaining. It's not talking down to anyone. Just a handful of folks who a DanG lifetime of experience in the sawbox that want to help solve a problem. Is that why you are here? To solve a problem, or to create one?

Dave, whose mother is a dairy farmer of about 55 years, which means she's also a truck driver, diesel mechanic, plumber, electrician, veterinarian, heavy equipment operator, carpenter, not to mention raised a family at the same time. You clearly want to bring gender into this discussion, but I can assure you that is pretty silly here. Would you prefer to be set straight by a female administrator? We have those here, too.

I love when a group full men tell me what is and isn't mansplaining. Please explain how diagnosing a problem without enough details that I never asked to be diagnosed is anything but mansplaining.

[SheSaws]

You have a very interesting problem solving approach - ask for advice assuming you already know the answer, then insult those who chime in, especially the ones with 10X your experience base, or more.  Dubious strategy at best, and I think I can see why your bosses are not overly receptive to your ideas. 
 
Oops, sorry, more unsolicited advice from a Y chromosome. 

I'm sorry I fail to see how "your saw needs to be tuned up" is helpful on a discussion about the dull teeth from the manufacturer. I am 100% sure making my gender known in my username is 100% the problem here. Unsurprising. And now it's a dogpile. This forum isn't a friendly place for women in this field. Thx.

[moodnacreek]

Taking side boards off a big cant to get ties on a good tight carriage and grading them is a good start.                                      I was thinking there was a new circle mill member here but it doesn't look good.

[Southside]

I am 100% sure making my gender known in my username is 100% the problem here.

You don't have a clue, not a clue as to how you have conducted yourself and the quality of people that are on here.  As an admin who knows what goes on here behind the scenes your attitude and mouth have been given a wide berth, more than a few have been kicked to  the curb for less, far less.

Since you love to wrap yourself in the cloak of the victim this will fit you well - sweetheart, it's not you - it's your personality.