Log lot management problems

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't envy you sawing for small orders.  I try not to saw too many.  You can adjust your price for your orders.  The smaller the order, the more expensive it is.  You have just as much time in your administrative work on a small order as you do a large order.  What you charge should reflect that.  If they don't pick up an order within a certain amount of time, sell it to recoup your costs.  Let them know ahead of time.

One way of increasing production is to saw larger blocking.  RR ties will knock out a bunch of material in short order.  But, you should have some way of handling the heavier stock.  Pallet blocking also will reduce log inventories pretty quick.  Make the orders from the sidecuts.

A little dab of grade here and there can be chased, if you have an outlet.  Letting it mount up doesn't help your bottom line, and by the time you sell it a lot may not meet "customer specs".  We have a few lumber brokers that will buy as little as 1 Mbf of 2 Com & Btr of any species.  They don't pay as much, but it keeps the lumber yard cleaned up.

For the loggers that are dumping, just lower the log prices. They won't bring as many.  We don't buy too many logs, but when we do we try to buy by weight.  Since your not getting in too many grade logs, why scale?  Those that don't make it go as firewood.  If the logger drops too much on you that is junk, then pay pulp prices.  If you need certain lengths, you can adjust your price to reflect higher prices for longer lengths. 

The nice thing about a knuckleboom is you stack your loggers higher.  The bad thing is that it takes a lot longer to get through the pile. 

Bottom line in inventory control is you running your operation, not the loggers and not the customers.  You cater to those that help your business and weed out those that don't.

[bull]

Pay less for the incoming logs and charge more for outbound product and a hell of a lot more for custom sawing.... You will get rid of a lot of headaches andbring in more money for less work....  I have had similar problems... At present I am unable to run the mill do to my leg injury,so Im cleaning up my log yard...I've found logs that have been around for as long as 5 years... There's going to be a large pile of firewood...
To bad some of these were nice sized and good grade,maple,birch,red oak... No more custom sawing and no more logs from the tree service guys.( Im not the local log dump anymore)...  If the logs aren't from my property then they have to come from a licensed logger.... I've had an inventory of up to 150,000 ft. of pine and 50,000 ft of hardwood in the past..  My plan now is no more than 10,000 ft of anything in the yard and a sort pile that will be cut into firewood once a month.... No logs along the driveway or stacked on the front lawn. If they can't fit in the mill yard then i won't get to them for a year and that makes for some pretty expensive firewood...   And the heck w/ hired help....

[Bibbyman]

Yea, Ron,  I had this thought after the first of the year when logs stated coming in again that we'd saw out a trailer truck load of RR ties.  I even called and talked to our local Koppers buyer.  I'd been a way to get rid of a couple of hundred 8', 9' and 10' logs.  We may do that yet but it's been a couple of months and we've not got started.  Mary's not any too keen on the idea for some reason.

We do have one place that we sell blocking but they only order about 1000 pieces a year.  Then another that only orders some special stuff from time to time. 

We do have two prices we charge for custom sawing - one for under 1,000 bf and another for over.  But Mary still charges the lower price to some of our old regular customers. Then she's got her "ol' fart's club".  Old retired farmers that have nothing better to do with their time than stand around and visit.

Firewood has not been a good seller in our area.  Too many people cut their own or have converted to gas or electric heat.   You can't sale it unless you can deliver it.  That takes way too much time.

[slowzuki]

Bibby, if the claw on your grapple is too slow but more than strong enough, you may want to get the hydraulic cylinder swapped out for a smaller one.  If it is a 2" now, a 1.5" will be 1.77 times faster, a 1.25" would be 2.56 times faster, of course there is a coresponding drop in grab power.

You can put a light thumb on pallet forks too.  It is in the centre and lets you grab an extra few logs per trip.  It runs quite fast as it is a small cylinder.

[VA-Sawyer]

Bibbyman,
I only have two words for you......STORAGE FEES !
VA-Sawyer

[Buzz-sawyer]

I was thinkin on the 2 year logs.......I would be sorely tempted to ask them to please come get thier logs....just to see thier expression :D :D :D

[Bibbyman]

I was thinkin on the 2 year logs.......I would be sorely tempted to ask them to please come get thier logs....just to see thier expression :D :D :D

Buzz- I was thinking along the line of asking one of the loggers with a picker to load them up and take them back up the road and dump them into their nice lawn and drive. ;D

The cylinder is at least 4" if not 5".  It'd make a great demolition tool.  I think it'd work good for taking down a brick building or old sidewalk.  I've used it to pick up big bolders the size of engine blocks and also to pull steel fence posts.  Works great to take out old fence.

Got 42" forks on the Terex.  It'll pick up 4-5 smaller 8-10' logs and and a couple of average size 12-14' logs.  BIG LOGS - one at a time!

Here is a link to a web page on our web site about or Terex loader. 

Terex loader

[Gary_C]

It is obvious that you have an excellent loader that will do everything you need done. While a knuckleboom would be better for some things, your Terex is a great machine for what you need.


As you already know, you need to get control of your log yard. Just start thinking of those logs out there as THIEVES that have been placed there to steal your money and time. But you have to figure a way to stop the logs from being dumped in your yard, but still keep Mary happy.  8) 8)

[ARKANSAWYER]

Bibby,
  I would help you if I could but since I have never had them problems I know of no solutions.  Some times I have to many logs and no orders so I just cant up the logs and sticker them till orders come.  Then I take the cants and resaw them.  That happens very seldom.
  KB's are very handy to load and unload trucks with and help to sort through piles fast to find logs for orders.  But to make payments there has to be an increase of income which means more sawing to make more money.  Good fulltime help (yea like you are going to find that) will speed up production alot.
  As for the old logs I would tell them folks to either have them sawed, come get them or start paying a storage fee.

[iain]

Bibby baby i got your problem sorted, what you need is a great big



SELECT"O"MATIC LOG CAROSEL 8) 8) 8)


ok it may need to be a bit bigger than big
you can have that problem solving idea on the house, but any more and there will have to be fees, levied appropriate to the level of thinking involved ;) :D


    iain

[smwwoody]

Bibby here is how Eddie solved his log lot problems.
http://imageevent.com/fireals/sawmillpictures

Now it is empty Most of the time  ;D

Woody

[FiremanEd]

Good fulltime help (yea like you are going to find that) will speed up production alot.

Arky,

   Yes you can find GREAT full time help. Look at the link in the post above this one,, Picture #1 shows the best thing to happen to our opperation in a good long while. My log inventory dissappeared soon after Woody moved to Va. We're now taking ALL the tie logs from 2 full time logging crews and have a third logger lined up to start bringing us all his tie logs this week. (I sure hope he shows up, we've been out of logs for 2 1/2 days....)
    I agree with your comment but it is still possible. I had to go through 3 rejects before Woody and I started talking on The Forestry Forum...

[Kirk_Allen]

Why not put in a LOG POND!  Makes moving them pretty easy and they should last a lot longer!

[UNCLEBUCK]

Thanks for the reply Bibbyman .

[Bibbyman]

Bottom line in inventory control is you running your operation, not the loggers and not the customers.  You cater to those that help your business and weed out those that don't.

Several years ago we got to the point where we needed to buy logs.  Not a lot but a couple 2-3 mbf/month. 

We talked to a number of local loggers and got nowhere.  We soon learned that they all have their dedicated markets and it's very hard to get them to change.  Also,  they didn't want to fool with one or two loads a week and they for sure didn't like the idea of us asking for specific species and sizes of logs. It was all or none.   

Finally one local logger brought us a short load from where he was cleaning up.  We developed some business with him but it's not been perfect by any means.  Sometimes he shows up with a load because he's having a problem with his truck and it's already loaded and does not want to risk taking it to his normal market.  Other loggers have delivered to us on a spot market basis.

It's NUTS!!!  You see tractor-trailer loads of logs on the highways go here and there.  Talk to the loggers and they have their markets far away from where they are home based or logging.  And they are locked in and loyal to them.  With the cost of trucking,  I can't see how it's an advantage to haul the logs 100-200 miles past 20 other places they could market them.

I sure would be handy to be able to call you're local logger on a Friday and say, "We're going to saw out a trailer deck Monday so we're going to need 4-5 nice 16' white oak logs.  Then we've got an order for 200 2x6, 12' so were going to need...."  Then they just show up with the logs you need when you need them. IT NEVER WORKS THAT WAY.  So you're about forced to take what they've got and hope you can make what you need out of it.

[Buzz-sawyer]

When I started asking loggers to sell me logs back when I started sawing I thought it would be simple.............It wasnt. I dont know what it is, I think they have been burned by a mill at some point.....so when they find one that hands them a good check, they hold on for grim death!!!! Even if it means trucking them 300 miles or more.
Frankly it seems crazy to me....If I was SELLING logs on a large scale,  iwould want several close markets......

[Ron Wenrich]

Mills live and die on their ability to purchase reasonably priced wood.  I've been around a lot of startup operations.  The ones that failed did so because of log supply.  Those that succeeded normally had their own logging crew.

Chances are, you're seeing log supplies when no one else wants them.  Other mills are probably paring down their inventory, and yours balloons.  But, when you need them, so does everyone else. 

We don't get orders too often, maybe a few a month.  We can saw almost any length, since we have them in the yards.  But, hemlock seems to be a slow mover.  Only when guys are building outbuildings, and basically in the spring or fall.

Instead of having a bunch of logs of different lengths, we stock in 24' lengths.  That's the size that fits on the triaxle.  We can cut any length we need, and still have a good usable log left behind.  Someone will need it sooner or later.  We will also cut some longer than the customer may have ordered.  Losing some footage to the customer seems to be a better business move than losing it to the bugs. 

[Bibbyman]

It's extremely hard to come by 20' oak logs in our area (pine is non-existent) .  If they're big and straight enough, they're too expensive because they'll have a good stave, veneer, or high-grade butt log.

Just yesterday we started cutting down the few 20's we have into 14' because that's what we have an order for.  We've had most of these on hand for probably a year average and have had no calls for 20' stuff.  Just wait,  soon as we use them up,  we'll get someone wanting some 20' stuff.

Also,  90% of the lumber we sale is 6" wide.  We sale a few 2x4s now and then but we rarely sale 1x4s.  Every other width of board are slow movers too.

We like to saw our 6" stuff out of logs 10" to 14" diameter.   A log this size will make mostly 6" boards with very little waste.  But on larger logs,  we end up edging down what would have made 8" or 10" boards to 6" – 12" and wider are ripped down to make 2-6" wide. 

We've saved back non-6" boards until our storage building is full.  Every now and then we get someone that wants to panel a wall (barn or house) and will take the random width boards.  But once we've stocked up on these odd size boards,  we stop making them and edge them down to what we have orders for.

[Brucer]

Bottom line in inventory control is you running your operation, not the loggers and not the customers.

Ron's nailed it there. The problem is how to get control.

It's generally not a good idea to use pricing to regulate your business. If you use pricing to control your inventory then you have to adjust your prices not only according to your inventory level, but also according to the current market prices. This also complicates your bottom line calculations at the end of the year. Did you make more money because of better inventory control, or because your prices were higher, or because of increased demand? There's also the risk of alienating customers and suppliers. They may come to perceive you as "unreliable" because your pricing keeps changing around.

Charging storage fees is a legitimate business practice, but it might backfire as an inventory management tool. Some customers may come to think of you as a log storage facility. A customer will probably feel guilty about leaving their logs with you for a year and a half, and then fetching them to take to another sawyer when you can't suddenly saw the logs up on a week's notice. But if they're paying a storage fee, there won't be the same sense of guilt. "They got paid, what are they complaining about?"

Try breaking your operation down into several "production lines" (if you haven't already). Each one represents a different type of business: regular customers with a standing agreement for quick turnaround; 2-week custom cutting jobs; customers who say "whenever"; your lumber broker; etc. Analyze each situation -- does it lead to an inventory problem? Is there a way to regulate the inventory? Does it interfere with the other types of production?

Think about developing some "rules" or standards for each of these production lines. Consider segregating the logs physically -- create storage areas for the different types of work. Someone comes along wanting to leave a load of logs with you and they'll "get back to you in a few months" If the storage area for that type of work is full, tell them you're sorry but you don't have room. When you accept work like this, set a time limit -- "You get one year. Then if you haven't decided what to do with the wood, we'll send it back to you. And we'll need a non-refundable storage and handling deposit from you in advance."

Same thing for deliveries from loggers. Have an area for scheduled deliveries, and one for unscheduled deliveries. If a logger drops by with an unscheduled load, and that area is full, tell him "Sorry, got no room right now." If he points to a big open area and asks why he can't drop them there, you just have to say that someone is scheduled to drop a load off their tomorrow. Won't be long before folks start to get the message.

You've got a good handle on what kind of "stocked" lumber will sell. (I sure wish it was that simple around here.) So which brings in more money -- storing the 8" lumber for the customer who might come by in 2 or 3 years, or sawing it down to 6" lumber right away and moving it through the system. Perhaps you can promote the wider stuff, through advertising or "sales". Don't get hung up on the notion of a wider board being "more profitable" than a narrow board. You cannot calculate what the profit is for an individual board, so don't let this interfere with your inventory management decisions.

These are just ideas I'm tossing out. Perhaps some of them will trigger new ideas of your own. Watch out for unwanted "side effects" of any ideas you put in place.

As for things being "NUTS", it's just the same here. Rossland's on the side of the mountain, and there's 3 roads out of here: up, down, and down. It's very common to be driving home "up" the hill and see two fully loaded logging trucks going in opposite directions. The rules here in BC are pretty strict -- all logs have to be scaled by a licensed scaler at an approved site. Most of the loggers are on contract to sawmills, and most of the sawmills have their own scaling sites. The independent loggers pretty much have to sell to the local log broker (who's got his own scaler). That's 60 km away, so if I want to buy logs, I've gotta pay to have them shipped that distance, even if they came from just down the road  :(.

[LeeB]

I would love to be able to get about 60 of those cedar logs from you but your just too far away. How much does a load of logs like that go for if I can ask? LeeB

[ARKANSAWYER]

   Fireman Ed,
  Maybe you need to send Woody out to my place for a few weeks so I can evalute him up close.   It is possible that his training is not complete and could use some finetuning.  Once I was done with him, should he prove of any worth, I would forward him up to Bibbyman for evaluation as well.   Then possible he could get a FF stamp of approval as Sure Enough Good Hand.

[smwwoody]

Arky

I'm not leaving here!  I found a home.  I couldn't ask for a better person to work for.  This was the best move I ever made  8) Me and my family are happier now than we have been in a long time.  Eddie and his family are good people. They treat us like we are part of thier family.  ohh yea did I say I like it here 

Woody

[tnlogger]

woody did you say u like it there  ;D

[ARKANSAWYER]

   If'n you think it is good there then you will be like a hawg in mud here.  For this is God's Country.  Clean air, sparklin blue lakes and lots and lots of trees and grits come with breakfast with out even havin to ask.   The further south you gets the better the gettin is.

[Rod]

What about this idea.Cut the stuff thats not moving into cant's.Then you could stick and stack them to how ever high your forklift will reach.Then some were down the road when prices go up and you have time,you could resaw them .