Cherrybark or Southern red oak ID

[blackhawk]

Have a co-worker looking to give away a red oak to me to saw.  I think that I have narrowed it down to either a southern red oak or cherrybark oak. The leaves really seem to match a cherrybark but the bark seems a little off.  What is everyone else's opinion?  Location is Southwest Virginia about 15 miles from Virginia Tech.  Trunk was very straight with the first limb not until about 25 feet.  

[Don P]

Scarlet? It has orange inner bark, often bell bottomed and holds dead branches.. loose knots.

[Magicman]

Yes, the leaves match Scarlet Oak better than any other variety from my book.  I could not make it be Black, Southern, nor Cherrybark.

[Otis1]

I'm from the frozen north so I can only agree with the previous replies after looking up scarlet oak. But I wanted to mention that Virginia Tech has a pretty good tree ID app called Vtree. It will find your location and give you the common tree species with pics of the leaves, bark, fruit, buds, twigs, etc.

[Magicman]

Yes they do and I have it bookmarked, but I find it kinda hard to navigate:  Scarlet Oak

[Otis1]

Magicman, not sure if you are using Vtree on a phone, tablet, or laptop but I find the app on my phone is fairly easy to navigate. The website is a bit clunky.

[Don P]

It is not our prime red oak, northern red. That's the wide fat full leaf. Most of the time scarlet yields more utility board type stuff than furniture grade but there are good ones. If you want more of either we have a good bit of red on a site we cut.

[Magicman]

Laptop Otis1, but I will admit that I have probably never spent enough time digging into it. 

[blackhawk]

I've been using the VT dendrology app and website to look at this.  I agree that the leaf does resemble the scarlet oak a little more than a cherrybark.  

The form of the tree still makes me think it may be a cherrybark.  VT says that the scarlet oak has an "generally poor form, irregular crown, and many dead branches. A butt-swell is often noticeable."  VT says that the cherrybark is a "large tree, with good, straight form, often well over 100 feet tall and over 3 feet in diameter."  The form of this tree matches the cherrybark a little more as it was very straight, with little butt swell, no dead branches, and about 40" diameter.  The first branch was at least 25 feet off the ground.  I added the picture of it before it was cut. It is the tree in the center of the pic that is the tallest.

[Don P]

I've sawn 10x12's 30' long out of Scarlet, there are good ones. You are north of me, more southern climatically, but I've never sawn a southern or cherrybark to my knowledge. They are really down and more east of us. To a customer it is in the red oak pile.

The bell bottom is a chestnut blight carrier tree, not all are infected. They tend not to shed by themselves but if the neighbors are it can help clean them. Just saying read those as generalizations not absolutes.

What are the plans for it?

Edit; This is a page on cherrybark and southern red oak with a range map. Cherrybark is down east of that line through the southern red's range.
https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/misc/ag_654/volume_2/quercus/falcata.htm

[Magicman]

The Red Oaks can be tricky with their leaves.  Leaves in the tree tops, middle, and the shade leaves on the bottom can all be very different:

This is the top side of 7 leaves that all came from the same tree.


And here is the underside of those seven leaves.

[WLzM1A]

I'm from the frozen north so I can only agree with the previous replies after looking up scarlet oak. But I wanted to mention that Virginia Tech has a pretty good tree ID app called Vtree. It will find your location and give you the common tree species with pics of the leaves, bark, fruit, buds, twigs, etc.

Agreed.  It's a great app.  Think its called VTree

[Old Greenhorn]

That post should be pinned up somewhere. Thanks for putting that photo together Lynn. The leaves vary by height and age and can be VERY different. In scarlet and northern reds this can be a real conundrum, I have have had some 'pointed discussions' over this.  We have both here and you have to be really careful to get it right. With my furniture, I just say 'Red Oak" and leave it at that .

[Magicman]

I got the VTree app and am downloading it now. 

I had arbor something app that I deleted because it did not work anyway.  My go-to has always been my book because I never had much success with the app.

[blackhawk]

Magicman - That is a great picture of the leaves.  I just read about how the shade leaves can be different yesterday.  I never knew that before.  Your picture is a great example.

Don - I don't have a specific use for the tree.  It is free, so I will just saw on speculation to sell the lumber later on.  I do want some pieces for myself to build some interior doors.  I am going to saw it up regardless of the type of red oak.  I am just curious of the type in order to learn more.  

Virginia Tech also has a dendrology website that gives more pictures than the app.  VT Dendrology

[Magicman]

I have had the website bookmarked on my laptop for several years and now have the VTree app on my iPhone.  I have not looked at the app yet.

[Don P]

That's what I was wondering. For selling, long clear lengths sell. For shop use, it depends on my cutting length. Beehive parts mostly fit pretty much exactly between white pine knot clusters.

The next place I look for some clues is either the Wood Handbook, chapter 4 , "mechanical properties of commercially important US woods". The Wood Database online posts those  strength numbers as well. Scarlet falls between Southern Red Oak and Cherrybark Oak in most of the ways they test for "strength". In the grading tables it falls under the Mixed oak table, which makes sense, structurally it is about the middle of the group.

I think you just got a cherry one 

[blackhawk]

VT has an email address for help with tree ID.  They came back and also said scarlet oak.

I milled the logs up this weekend and it was some great lumber.  I would say 85-90% of it was FAS grade.  I milled several pieces for myself to use in making interior doors for my house.  I had just under 700 bf total out of 3 logs.

[Don P]

Sounds like a winner 
I forgot to mention, before I put the wood handbook away, Chapter 3 has average shrinkage values for many species. Radial, Tangential, Volumetric
Northern red- 4.0, 8.6, 13.7
Scarlet- 4.4, 10.8, 14.7
Southern Red- 4.7, 11.3, 16.1