Generator Aggravation

[Dave Shepard]

I suspect the natural gas were standby where gas was available piped in. Diesel is easier to use for primary power in a portable situation. 

[RetiredTech]

  It's been my experience that diesel engines will outlast the gas engines. LP and NG are both just gas engines with a different metering system. The diesel generators I've seen run at a much lower rpm(Except some small air cooled models) than the gas generators do. The diesel uses less fuel, but at least down here LP gas is cheaper. When I needed a new standby generator for the house I paid the extra money for the diesel. It should outlast me.

[scsmith42]

I suspect the natural gas were standby where gas was available piped in. Diesel is easier to use for primary power in a portable situation.

^^^ This would be my assumption as well. NG and LP generators are almost always stationary backup units, whereas diesel can be stationary or mobile.

Mobile units frequently provide power for job sites where they run 10-12 hours a day. So a mobile unit might reach 20k hours in the same number of years that a standby unit reaches 1K hours.

The standby unit being sold is not worn out, but replaced due to the higher likelihood of unscheduled downtime due to an aged component. Versus the high hour unit is worn out.

Any facility where they've invested to cost to have a backup generator is probably one where uptime is critical. The low hours unit is being replaced in order to mitigate risk.

[tule peak timber]

Generator aggravation alleviation. 

[Magicman]

Surely is purdy.  

[YellowHammer]

Is there any difference in the windings? Backup vs primary generator?  Better insulation, higher temperature rating before breakdown, stuff like that?

So when I got this 1993 unit, the big thing was that there was nothing that couldn't be worked on by me.  All field replaceable, but that strategy falls apart when I don't have a backup and and the original parts aren't made anymore.  So older, more primitive units have advantageous as long as they don't get too old. However, as things age, they break down anyway, even simple thing like switches, corroded connectors that rot off in my hands, gauges that just die for no reason, sensors that leak to ground and shut things off and is becoming very common now in this generator, and definitely affects the uptime, and since I am the lead sawyer, kiln operator, motor pool, and even mechanic, when something goes down, "we" at Hobby Hardwood stop producing lumber. Even something so simple as a relay switch can take significant time to diagnose and replace, the last one wasn't even available locally, I had to Amazon it, lost two days, and it was the wrong one even though I correctly cross referenced the part number, and finally had to call a Generac guy who said, "Yeah, it's a 1993 Ford 4 bolt starter relay, but kind of special, the engine starter they superseded it with will burn out quick." Which it did, so I ordered a couple, and then promptly broke wire connectors off, which I tried to replace, and then realized the wires were rotten, so had to replace them, and and so on and so on as logs kept piling up.  Kind of like my current fuel control, I can "replace" it, but after 30 years, it's not manufactured anymore, so I have to buy a different brand and style totally, and know that the bolt holes won't match my existing vaporizer, and I'll have to hand build an adapter plate to even get the stuff installed.  Sure, this is Mickey Mouse stuff, ain't no big deal, but it is when I've been down for over a week trying to source obsolete parts, and will have to monkey wrench the new ones in.  Assuming I can get the whole thing running again, anyway, as the parts alone just cost me $2K for a $6K generator.  My water pump is leaking, and for some reason my local auto parts store doesn't carry the 30 year old part, but they can order it, and have it in a couple days at twice the price.

That's the reason these "low hour" but old generators were taken out of service, for certain applications, uptime is important.

On the other hand, new systems have all their stuff computerized and locked out, and that's also a bad thing for an operation like mine, where the only answer I would have is for the repair guy to tell me I can't work on it and it'll take him a week to get to me. 

Of course, then add in all the emissions stuff for diesel, Tier 3 and 4 and that's another ball of poop I don't want to deal with.  That's why companies like Deere are getting sued in the "Right to Work On Equipment" lawsuit.

Even the way the fuel is delivered is an issue and prevents me from doing a quick engine swap.   Back in the good old days, the big block generators were commonly set up as liquid withdrawal LP systems, with the gasifier in the engine (good luck finding one of them) but in the last 20 years, pretty much everyone has switched to vapor withdrawal LP systems, and it uses a series of regulators on the tank supply line. So in order for me to switch from a 30 year old to even a 20 year old system is going to cost me down time just for time the gas company needs to reconfigure my 500 gallon tank for vapor withdrawal and install the piping and regulators (another $400) for it.  Plus permits and inspections.  Nothing difficult, but certainly time consuming and money.  Or if I try diesel I can avoid that, except Perkins, Cummins and Deere are off limits as far as local service.

So what I really need, and haven't been able to find, is a new modern simple engine, 350 V8 or more, non turbocharged, with no electronics to speak of, just "old school" fuel and ignitions systems with a couple basic safeties, like low oil and over temp.  Then I need a new but not electronically complex generator body with a good voltage regulator.  Fresh wires, clean connectors, no corrosion, no rotten insulation. 

What a joke.  My parts finally come in tomorrow hopefully, by 5pm UPS.  Of course I paid extra and ordered them 2nd day air last Thursday morning, and they should be here after 5 days....

Generator aggravation. 

[tule peak timber]

That pristine cat set is 23 years old! kept indoors and only has servicing hours on it. This Detroit Kohler set has very low hours, indoor unit from an airport and is also pristine for only 9 grand. Neither unit has "smarty pants " electronics for control, good parts availability, and are basically old school to work on. I appreciate your sentiment that we want equipment that is reliable, user friendly, and gets the job done. The stuff is out there but you might need to compromise on price, size, and shipping to avoid future "aggravation".  The guy with the cat knows what he has and wants a lot of money for it. The Detroit is 1/3 the price because nobody wants to listen to a landing craft engine day in day out. Where to compromise? I'm still trying to figure that out myself.

[Dave Shepard]

Might be time to build that bunker for the Detroit. Then you'll have a bunker when you retire. 

[caveman]

I'm just thinking, maybe erroneously, that you could possibly find a PTO generator (I think it was Southside who mentioned that) and power it with an agricultural power source like they use to run well pumps for irrigation.  You could select whichever brand of diesel pushes your buttons and likely find an older one with relatively low hours to avoid all of the issues with tier IV (I'm thankful that none of our diesel-powered equipment takes exhaust fluid or regenerates).  A 4BT Cummins would likely do the job and they are plentiful as are the Kubota's and Yanmar's for smaller diesels. 

[Dave Shepard]

I don't think pto is going to deliver the ease and consistency to replace an actual genset. It would require a significant tractor that is not going to be running at a synchronous rpm also. Meaning it's going to want to run at corn chopping rpms all day, not just purring away making 3 phase.

[YellowHammer]

So today, finally, all my parts showed up, even the ones that were wrong, and I about blew a gasket.

I had a dual core mag pickup delivered with two male weatherproof snap connectors.  Very cool. The wiring harness I paid for also showed up, and oddly enough, it also had two male waterproof connectors on each end.  When I ordered the pickup and harness, I asked several times, "Does the high dollar, shielded wiring harness fit the dual core speed pickup?" and all I got back was sure, it will.  Nope.  So there is $65 bucks of weatherproof, signal shielded, wiring harness that will be chopped up and replaced with spade connectors.

So then I tried to mount the new governor by splitting the throttle body intake manifold.  No problem only a few machine screws that needed to be replaced with longer of the same thread pattern.  I only have every bolt and screw known to man in my shop.  I actually had some, #12-24 x 3/4" but needed longer. I needed 1" or 1.25" long.  Well, guess what Autozone, Oreilley's, Advance Auto, Lowes or Home Depot don't carry?  #12-24 by any length.  They have lots of #10, and lots of 1/4" but no #12, at all.  So I came home empty handed, another  couple hours lost looking for obsolete fasteners, apparently only used on a 1993 Chevy 454 with a Generac Vaporizer.

So for the afternoon, I got nothing done and tomorrow, I will spend a couple more hours driving to American Fastener or Fastenal, where I hope they have some.  

As I said before, just pure Micky Mouse stuff, but it sure does kill a lot of time and generates a lot of cussing.     

  

[Southside]

Hopefully your Fastenall is better than the one I have access to.  I have to wonder just what they do have in that store sometimes. 

[SawyerTed]

Fastenal is just like the chain auto parts stores.   

They can get it if they don't have it and there a lot they don't have.   

Ours closed because it was just a shipping and receiving store.   Why have something shipped there when it can be shipped to your business or home? 

We are experiencing the retirement of the last of the baby boomers.  The people with 30 plus years experience are retiring and their expertise goes out the door with them.  (Many of us are them). 

So the guy on the phone looks at a drawing and says, "Yep it fits."   But he doesn't have enough experience to know, you gotta have/make the adapter.  The clerk at the auto parts store only knows what the computer tells him.  

We have a hydraulic hose company that stocks all sorts of hard to find stuff along with hydraulic components.  

I stopped in there to see if the had a threading die to clean up the threads on a trailer spindle.   When I asked, the curmudgeon behind the counter uttered an expletive.  Thinking I had done something wrong I asked him why he was cussing.  

He explained the last one he had was sold recently, they've ordered more but they haven't come in.  He was genuinely aggravated that he couldn't help me.  Unlike other places where clerks shrug and say sorry.  

The guy at the hydraulic hose shop called and verified where I could find what I needed locally.  His shop is a dump and the co-owners are crusty old guys but they know how to help a customer. 

[scsmith42]

I'm fortunate to have a great industrial supply house about 20 minutes from the farm.  They don't stock everything but have probably 75% of what I typically need.  Also have some great commercial auto parts stores 15 - 30 min away.

Rob - that Cat generator sure looks sweet!  That's about the perfect age too - young enough so that you can still get parts but old enough to be pre all the emissions problems and minimal computer controls.  I'd have a hard time passing it up for the Detroit - mainly for fuel and noise reasons.

Robert - I swear that we could be twins by another mother!  So many of your frustrations equal my own.  

One thing that I've seen is that when it comes to the little stuff, the fact that Kohler / Cat / Onan spent more on higher quality parts than Generac really tells as the units start to age.  A great example of this is Baker sawmills.  Whatever fuel line that they used on Tom had to have been some of the best available.  It's been in the sun for 18 years and only now is starting to have a break or two.  I've had fuel line that I bought at Autozone 3 years ago already starting to deteriorate, yet whatever Baker bought back in 2006 is still holding up.

[YellowHammer]

Scott, if we were, can you imagine all the trouble we could get into?  It would be epic.   

Today, I had to pull out the big guns and put on the secret "club shirt."  It has "Maintenance" on both sides.  This is me driving in the truck, going from shop to shop.  It really does help when interfacing with real working people, and my daughter gave it to me a while ago, she said it would make me look like an official Hobby Hardwood maintenance guy and the customers would leave me alone while I was fixing things!  It works.

After calling up McMaster Carr, Grainger, Huntsville Fastener, and every other fastener shop in a town of 2.5 million people, it was a no joy.  So then I started stepping into machine shops, and finally found one machine shop that had the 12-24's!  The secret shirt worked, and he even gave them to me for free after I offered to pay him; he said it looked like I had been having a hard day!

I got the controller wired in, and by the end of the day, had hooked up enough stuff to get the controller brain working and talking to the servo.  Good progress.  This is a picture of Big Blue crammed with all the parts needed for the upgrade.   

 

[barbender]

Wait...which picture was Big Blue?🤔

[Magicman]

Big Blue is the one that has all of it's sssstuff together. 

[YellowHammer]

Wait...which picture was Big Blue?🤔

[Dave Shepard]

I've been experiencing what I call the Amazon Conundrum lately. Do I go in search of something that I'm pretty sure isn't available locally, or do I get it over with and just pull out my phone and order a 120 piece assortment of bits and pieces that is sure to have at least one of what I need for about the same amount of money as I'm going to spend on gasoline and soft serve ice cream that it's going to cost to search local stores and still not get the one piece I need?  
Second Amazon Conundrum: do I buy something locally if I know I won't use it in two business days? I do try to plan most of my purchases, but it's tough to justify spending what is likely 2-3 hours for some small part.

[Magicman]

I will go to my ACE Hardware which is owned by a friend Keith, rather than go to Home Depot or the others such as HF and TSC.  I am not necessarily knocking them, but I have watched Keith since he graduated HS, and went into business for himself.

Yes, I regularly shop online when looking for items that may not be locally available or are not immediately needed.

[Larry]

I refuse to be held hostage by parts shortages, exorbitant prices, and shipping delays. To that effect, my old South Bend lathe and Bridgeport milling machine have come to the rescue of so many other machines its beyond count. And Robert, think about all the gadgets you can make for precision reloading! A couple of 12-24 screws might take a hour for me to make....I'm slow.

[scsmith42]

Is there any difference in the windings? Backup vs primary generator?  Better insulation, higher temperature rating before breakdown, stuff like that?

It's been 20 years but as I recall for Prime power source units the engines, alternators and wiring are all derated (output is calculated based on 70% rated power).    

Backup units are only designed to run intermittent duty for a couple of hundred hours per year, versus primary are designed for 7/24/365.

Generator math - is 1.8 HP per KW, with prime units calculations based on 70% of rated HP. 

My 225KW unit -- if used in a primary situation - has a prime rating of 155KW instead of the 225KW that the engine and alternator will put out at max power.

400hp / 1.8=222KW.  This is the gross power output that the generator is capable of, and the design sizing of the alternator, engine and all wiring.

When multiplied *.7 = 155 KW - which is the same generators Primary rating.

So the unit is built with an engine, alternator, and all wiring sized for 225KW, but when used as a primary power source is derated to 155KW.

Basically the same thing as using an F250 to tow the max load that an F150 is rated for.  Extra safety margin.

[longtime lurker]

I have a really simple theory when it comes to buying generators: it's an alternator swung by a motor.  If it's got a MeccAlte, McColl, Samford or Pettbow alternator (or dunlite if it's only a baby) then the power generation end will do the job. That just leaves what breed of engine you want and honestly there too you'll get what you pay for.... or more correctly you can buy a whole lot of trouble if you want to spend enough money.  Under 200 or so kVa  go Cat/ Detroit/ Rolls Royce/ Dorman/ Hino/ Mitsubishi/ Scania and you can't go wrong. Don't look at a Cummins under 400 kVa, don't buy anything with modern emissions junk, be happy with simple old Murphy watchdogs... anything else is just a problem waiting to happen and when it happens it'll cost you for parts and more importantly it'll cost you with either downtime or generator hire.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=354033

Having said that I have a no-name Chinese Cummins ripoff swinging a Chinese alternator of unknown parentage with some awful fancy control system for the greenmill and I can't fault it. 90kVa continuous (prime) rating, burns about 6 litres an hour (1.5 gallons more or less) and it's done 800 hours in 6 months without missing a beat except for having a bit of bother getting the right fuel filters the first time. When it dies I'll replace it with a real one but my gut is telling me the thing might be a good one. 

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=354034

The other side of the coin is the drymill genset which is a Hino/MeccAlte unit (also 90kVa). She's getting some years on her though it doesn't pull the hours the greenmill unit does. The watchdog spat the dummy in January and auto-electrician found me some you-beaut fancy pants new control unit that took a couple weeks to get here. Then the fun started.... it is designed for digital sensors so we had to change the sensors to suit. Then it had to be hooked up to the alternator as well or it wouldn't work, then there was issues with it doing whatever, and whatever else, and backup service from the guy in Germany with a heavy accent at ungodly hours of the night to try and make it work. $3 k later and I run the thing on manual override cuz yanno.... I havent had a chance to pull all the new thing off and put a simple Murphy setup on it. But aside from that - and a lot of that is probably out of his depth tradesman rather than poor controller - it's been a brilliant unit. Fuel burn again sits around 1.5 gallons an hour, and she's done a lot of hours.

Buy the Detroit unit... it'll do 30,000 hours (or until you die whichever comes first), parts are cheap and readily available for the foreseeable future, if it's got the right injectors it'll sip fuel not suck it like an automotive unit.... and you won't hear the noise once you turn on the planer and dust extractor anyway.

[YellowHammer]

Well, the stars aligned yesterday and and the new controller worked fine and after building mounting adapters, installing some new gas lines, removing old wiring and installing new ones, I basically bypassed the Generac controller as much as possible and fired the engine up first time!  Then I had to set the recovery idle speed, and used a timing light to set the 1800 RPM target speed.  I was waiting on 4 fasteners from UPS for the vaporizer, and as soon as the truck showed up, I was putting them in.    

Before long I had wood coming out of the planer.  

I will have to do some cleanup and piddling, putting all the covers back on and then get the gain and stability correct.  As usual, I found some stuff in the factory wiring that I just shook my head at in the original system, and "rewired" what looked stupid.

I did hear on thing of concern, as I was playing with the throttle, around 1000 RPM I heard what sounded like to me as a bearing squeal in the generator section, which quieted down in a few seconds.  I am wondering if these are permanently sealed and lubricated bearings?  There are no obvious grease or lubrication points, and I didn't see anything in the manual.  However, that kind of gave me the "Oh, what now?" kind of reaction.

All the shiny bits are stuff I installed.

I still need to find a new or old one, and this has been a real learning experience for what to look for, and I'm glad for all the detailed advice I've gotten here.

I wonder how long this thing will work before it breaks again?    

[Magicman]

Here is hoping for the best, but that possible bearing squeal is disconcerting.

At least you regained your vice-grips.