Restoring old sawmill

[Ashton1012]

Hello everyone!

I'm currently helping a friend restore/return to working condition a very large old sawmill.
I wish I had more info, as soon as I get more I'll update the post.
I believe it's a 1945 mill, powered by a 1950s D8 engine.
It ran 5 years ago so the owner is confident it won't take much to get running again. After removing the magneto and drying it out, we have spark. Hopefully tomorrow we will see if it wants to fire up.

He said the last time he ran it, he was having some issues with the blade likely due to it being dull, possibly out of line.

My question-

Does anyone know of a knowledgeable blade smith in Washington State? As soon as we get it running, the blade needs some maintenance. I'm hoping to have someone lined up so we can get to work as soon as we're ready.

Thanks for any info. I'll update this post as we make progress, and I'll take some pictures so you all can follow along and see what we're working with.

[longtime lurker]

I googled saw doctors in Washington state and got half a dozen hits straight away so don't think you'll have too much trouble finding someone.

Pull the saw and get it sorted now so you aren't waiting for it once the engine is running. Maybe it just needs a sharpen or maybe it needs to be hammered as well... but sharpening and putting it on the anvil is a necessary first step in diagnosis of any problems.

[thecfarm]

Welcome to the forum.
You been around a sawmill at all?
Sounds like a great project.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'd consider putting new teeth in the blade before you do anything.  Your saw doc could do that for you.  Getting it hammered would eliminate the saw as being a problem.

[Ashton1012]

Thanks for the replies. I did try googling, but most of what I found was bandsaw sharpening services. Two places seemed promising and I sent emails, but haven't heard back yet.

No progress on the mill yet. The weather was awful this weekend so we didn't spend any time outside.

I did find out it's a "Crooks and Johnson" mill. Can't find much online about the company, it was a local company out of Washington.

I haven't spent any time around a mill. Countless hours on YouTube haha. I will be soon though- I had a bunch of Doug firs dropped and they should be getting milled up next week. That will be my first real exposure to the trade. Just getting some 6x6 and 6x8 beams, plus some 2x6s milled. It should turn out really nice, these were beautiful Doug firs.

[Ron Wenrich]

There's a learning curve to sawmilling.  It goes in levels.  You'll advance to a level and plateau for a while until you move up to the next level.  Its not a straight line.

Are you installing this mill somewhere else, or are you just using it where its been sitting?

Here is the circle mill bible: 
https://www.fpl.fs.usda.gov/documnts/misc/cirsaw.pdf

Lots of great information on how circle mills run.  It won't teach you how to saw, but it will help you troubleshoot many problems.

[Ashton1012]

Thanks for the resource!

I'll be using it right where it sits. While it is technically a portable sawmill, it would take a new set of tires and quite a bit of work to make it road worthy again. The definition of portable in the 40's is wildly different than the portable mills of today! The track itself is about 36' long. My friend told me the longest beams he's milled with it are 40'. It has an automatic log loader and sawdust conveyor that stick out quite a bit. Not sure if those have to be removed to transport, or possibly fold up. Then I'd have to rent some equipment to load this monster engine up haha, and the spare next to it. So for now, it will sit where it's at. My hope is later down the road if the saw turns out to be worthy of use, I'll try to buy it off the friend. He's getting older and sooner rather than later he will need it gone.

[DanielW]

It may be worth getting the blade looked at and certainly won't hurt. But in my experience (which is not insignificant when it comes to old & antique circular mills), 90% of the time a misbehaving/wandering saw is due to some other problem. I still get called around to a some circular mills to help folks diagnose their problems. Collar machining, incorrect lead, bowed/flexing track, loose shanks, improperly sharpened bits, and running at the incorrect RPM are the most common causes of blade misbehavior that I see. Everyone I deal with always wants to blame the saw and how its hammered, but most of the time that's not the issue. If that mill was running fine 5 years ago, I'd take a good look at all other aspects before I sent the saw off to be hammered. Here are some recommendations I posted a while ago for another member with similar issues. Much/most of this you likely already know, but it's a good starting point for diagnosis and rebuild:

- Have you put a tach on it to verify your RPM? Even if you theoretically know your pulley sizes and engine RPM, you'd be surprised at what a little belt slip or an old/inaccurate tach can do. If you're not running it at the intended RPM, it'll dive, dish, pull, and do all sorts of other funky behavior. Most folks I've helped get old mills up and running tend to start off running them waaaay too slow. I don't know what your saw was hammered for, but I'd guess somewhere in the 500-650 RPM region. Although this isn't 'proper' by any means, one way of trying to figure out approximately what speed the saw was hammered for is to look in-line at the top of the plate as you wind it up (making sure the guides aren't influencing it as you do so). It'll wander and wobble until it gets close to its intended RPM.

- Check the lead, then check it again (and again). A lot of folks tend to run too much lead, which will cause the saw to dive or pull the log/cant away from the carriage. On older mills with saws that have lost their tension and carriage tracks that aren't straight, you often end up having to run more lead for it to cut at all. If the tracks were worn/sagging/weak or some other aspects were off in its old life, there's a good chance the old owner was running a lot of lead. But you want to start off at a pretty low lead. Something like 1/64 per foot of blade diameter is a good starting point (i.e. 1/16" for a 48" saw). But every saw behaves a little differently, so you may have to play around with it a little. Make sure the guides aren't influencing the plate when you check/set it, and measure to the same tooth front and back (i.e. check distance from the tooth to first headblock at the infeed side, then roll the carriage forward and rotate the saw you you're checking distance from the same headblock to the same tooth on the outfeed side). Theoretically, you should really check the lead when it's running at the hammered RPM, but you can usually get it close enough for a first approximation by checking it when not running.

- What's the condition of the collars? Poorly machined collars will cause the saw to go crazy. Often you can make old/worn collars perform better by running a thin ring of oiled newsprint or one/two thou. brass shim-stock around the outer contact surface of the collars. This helps fill in any inconsistency on the collars' contact surfaces and mimics what the outer lip is supposed to do on a properly-machined collar (contacting the saw plate on the outer 1/2" to 5/8", and hollow in the centre). Running the paper/shim-stock rings is also not 'proper' practice and I wouldn't do it on a production mill running 70 hours a week, but it works ok and a lot of old circular mills (including two of mine) are working just fine with the shim rings on the collars.

- How are your teeth filed & swaged? If they're slightly angled one way or another the blade can really dive toward the high side. If it were me, I'd start by putting all new teeth in it and ensuring the shanks are all a tight fit in clean sockets. Having the shanks tight in the sockets is critical for blade tension; even one loose shank in a saw can cause the tension to go awry and the saw will wander like crazy.

- Make sure the guides are as close as possible to the saw without influencing it. Ideally you should do the final guide adjustment while it's running, but you have to be uber-careful with your fingers when doing that. If it's hammered properly and the collars are true, you can usually get them close enough without it running.

- Are you sure your bearings are good with absolutely no slop/play? A little bit of play can cause the saw to do funky things. If that mill's from 1945, it's probably right around when manufacturers were changing from babbitt to roller bearings. If it's running in babbitt, make sure you're keeping the oil to it. It only takes a minute or two of running a mandrel in dry babbitt boxes to start overheating and wearing/melting out the babbitt.

- How's your mill positioned/stored? Is it in the sun, or near a heat source? When a saw plate is hammered properly, a little bit of heat on one side can make a big difference on how it behaves. Especially if it's got a fair bit of tension near the centre of the plate. If one side of it's been facing the sun all day, it can impart a surprising amount of dish to the saw and it'll run like garbage. Until you've seen it a few times it's hard to believe, but it does certainly make a difference. Same thing with a bearing that's on its way out: If the bearing is running hot, the eye and bearing-side of the saw will get heat and dish the saw.

- If still misbehaving, once you've made a cut or two, feel the saw. See if it's hot towards the rim, hot towards the eye, hot all over, or cool all over. That'll tell you if something's awry with the tension.

Hopefully some of that helps. I'd start by checking your lead, winding up your engine RPM quite high (if you're not already), sharpening your bits square (or replacing with new bits) and going from there. It's worth finding a saw doctor near you in case you ever do need it hammered, but for an old mill that probably only sees a few hours of use a week, you should only need it hammered if something goes horribly awry, enough to throw out the tension. All other aspects to do with the saw (sharpening, swaging, replacing bits/shanks, etc.) are aspects you're going to want to do yourself.

[hardtailjohn]

Where are you in WA?
John

[reride82]

Thanks for the replies. I did try googling, but most of what I found was bandsaw sharpening services. Two places seemed promising and I sent emails, but haven't heard back yet.

No progress on the mill yet. The weather was awful this weekend so we didn't spend any time outside.

I did find out it's a "Crooks and Johnson" mill. Can't find much online about the company, it was a local company out of Washington.

I haven't spent any time around a mill. Countless hours on YouTube haha. I will be soon though- I had a bunch of Doug firs dropped and they should be getting milled up next week. That will be my first real exposure to the trade. Just getting some 6x6 and 6x8 beams, plus some 2x6s milled. It should turn out really nice, these were beautiful Doug firs.

When searching for a circular saw service, google for a saw doctor or specifically circular saw sharpening. Also, the one I use in Missoula, MT prefers phone calls over emails as that is what they've done for decades. They may not see the emails for some time. You've received great advice to get the saw tuned up so it's ready when the motor is running.