3.5 vs. 4.5 Log Winch Thoughts/Experiences

[DanielW]

Hi folks,

I know there are already many (many) threads on here about tractor skidding winch selection and sizing so I hate to start another, but some aspects of my choice are troubling me and I'd greatly appreciate any opinions.

I'm looking at getting a winch for my father's farm which has a small woodlot, and where I run two of my smaller circular mills (more for fun than anything). His place is far too far from our larger woodlot to justify bringing equipment back and forth, and too small of an operation to justify a skidder. I've worked with several tractor winches, mostly a Wallenstein FX110, a 'Big Jim' 8800, and a neighbour's Krpan 4.5. Very impressed with all of them, and I'd say the build quality of all three is comparable.

I've narrowed my selection down to either an Igland/Norse or a Krpan, and and either a 3.5 or 4.5 ton model. I really like the swinging butt-plate of the Norse, but they're significantly more expensive for the equivalent size and don't come with as many bells/whistles. They're also surprisingly light for their size: The Krpan ones are at least 25% heavier, which in my mind translates into 25% more robustness. The Igland 3.5 is particularly light, and I wonder if any winch built this light can take any kind of a beating.

I realize, however, that lightness is a good thing when it lets you skid more logs to the landing with each run. This isn't insignificant for me, as much of the time I'll probably have it on an older tractor with lower three point lift capacity. I have quite a selection of tractors to choose from, but based off which ones are typically tied up doing other farm chores and which ones I like to beat up in the bush, I think I'd like to keep it on an old Fordson Major most of the time. Not a very powerful tractor, but built back in 50's England when everything was built with excessive pig-iron. That 40 HP Fordson is built heavier than most modern 60+ HP tractors. Unfortunately its hydraulics are low pressure compared to more modern units - lift capacity is around 2000# or so at best.

So I'm pondering what to choose, and would welcome any input. Between the two manufacturers, the Krpans are significantly cheaper but also significantly heavier (which might be both good and bad). They also don't have the swinging butt-plate, which seems like it might be handy around stumps & rocks.

Between the two sizes: the 3.5 seems like it will easily pull all I want (mostly white & red pine for lumber and some occasional locust and ash for firewood). But I want something that can take a beating, and every video/image of 3.5-sized winches online show them mounted to micky-mouse compact tractors and skidding smaller/shorter logs on dead-flat or smooth ground. The fact that there are no decent videos of a 3.5-sized winch in a proper bush pulling full-length stems or hefty hardwood seems a bit telling.

I'm sure I don't need the pulling power of the 4.5 for anything growing at that farm (and I wouldn't get it out of the 40 HP Fordson anyway). But I might want the extra robustness that comes with a bigger winch? There's also the wider butt-plate of the Norse vs. the narrower plate of the Krpan. Many of my tractors are old girls, and not renowned for the holding ability of their parking brakes. I'd thus be relying a lot on the blade to dig in and hold. I'm not sure which would be the preferable option: The wider blade of the Norse which would give more contact surface, or the narrower blade of the Krpan which might 'dig in' more.

All thoughts/opinions/wild speculation greatly appreciated.

[thecfarm]

I have a Norse, but from what you are saying the Krpan maybe better for you.
But the weight I would not be concerned about. I have a 450 Norse and like everything I own, I have worked it harder and use it more then most people would. Had it since '93 and twitched out a lot of big pine. I mean pine more then 3 feet across was no big deal. There was many 4 foot ones too. Never damaged the winch at all.
Now it lives a life of ease with just fire wood. But I still haul out some pine 30 inches across.
The butt plate that pivots is nice. I can hear it banging when we use to haul too much with it. The arms would not pick the winch up high because of the weight.
I still haul out too much at time with it, just doing firewood.
The Norse also has boxes for the chains too.
Whatever you get make up some 4 foot chains. I use them more then the 8 foot chains. Much easier to pull only a couple feet through the keyhole then 4 feet of chain.
I also ran 6 chokers. Sometimes all 6 are used and sometimes only one. They don't get in the way if not needed.

[Dan_Shade]

@thecfarm, what hooks do you have on your chains?

[GAB]

DW:
The distance or span of the 3point hitch arms will decide what winch you can use on a tractor.  To the best of my knowledge the lower capability winches are manufactured for cat 1 3 ph system tractors.  After that cut off point they will fit on the cat 2 3 ph system tractors.
The following is an I think:
I think that the Fransgard winches up to the 3500 are for cat1 and 4000 or larger are for cat 2 3ph tractors.  I wanted a 4000 and the dealer told me that it would not fit on my JD950.
GAB

[thecfarm]

This is what I use.

choker hook

[thecfarm]

These are the slides I use.

slides


Any place that sells winches should have both of these.
I've seen them at 3 different tractor  dealers..

[TreefarmerNN]

DW:
The distance or span of the 3point hitch arms will decide what winch you can use on a tractor.  To the best of my knowledge the lower capability winches are manufactured for cat 1 3 ph system tractors.  After that cut off point they will fit on the cat 2 3 ph system tractors.
The following is an I think:
I think that the Fransgard winches up to the 3500 are for cat1 and 4000 or larger are for cat 2 3ph tractors.  I wanted a 4000 and the dealer told me that it would not fit on my JD950.
GAB

My Tajfun has both Cat I and Cat II hitch points. It's an 8,000 lb pull which puts it in the middle.  I'm running it on a JD 790 but can drop it behind a Kubota M6800 which is significantly more tractor.  It digs in well and that's good because there's no way the 790 would hold on brakes alone.

[thecfarm]

I have a 30hp and a 40hp tractor.
My winch is made for a 40-60hp tractor.
I have the same hook up on my 30hp tractor and I had a 18hp tractor and it's too wide to fit on either tractor, but the hook ups are the same design.

[DanielW]

Thanks for the replies thus far. All my tractors (or at least, all the ones I'd have on the winch) have Cat II hitches, and it's no trouble for me to narrow up the sway chains and bush the arms to use them with Cat I implements, so hitch size of the winch not a concern.

[47sawdust]

I have owned a 3.5 Tajfun,a 3.5Krpan and now own a 4.5 Krpan.
The 3.5 would be my choice.The fact that it is lighter will mean you will have more lifting power available for getting your logs off the ground.

[DanielW]

I have owned a 3.5 Tajfun,a 3.5Krpan and now own a 4.5 Krpan.
The 3.5 would be my choice.The fact that it is lighter will mean you will have more lifting power available for getting your logs off the ground.

Thanks! That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Evidently you don't think the 3.5's are built too light/flimsical? 

[teakwood]

I have worked with Igland and they are a quality product (at least 20years ago, no idea if that's still the case). Although i have limited experience working with tractor and winch but i'm with 47sawdust, tractor and winch and logs means your front will be up in the air and steering will be a problem. it's just not the ideal setup for logging. On the other hand, on my old 540 deere skidder you can really hang some weight on the back because at 7.5to they are really heavy made and twice the weight of a tractor. and the winch cable (load) is almost between the back tires, that means you have almost 0 pivot. on a tractor, the further back the winch hangs out the more pivot you get to lift your front

[47sawdust]

No drop off in quality going to the smaller winch.
Flimsical is a great word.My wife probably won't let me use it in Scrabble though.

[DanielW]

I have worked with Igland and they are a quality product (at least 20years ago, no idea if that's still the case). Although i have limited experience working with tractor and winch but i'm with 47sawdust, tractor and winch and logs means your front will be up in the air and steering will be a problem. it's just not the ideal setup for logging. On the other hand, on my old 540 deere skidder you can really hang some weight on the back because at 7.5to they are really heavy made and twice the weight of a tractor. and the winch cable (load) is almost between the back tires, that means you have almost 0 pivot. on a tractor, the further back the winch hangs out the more pivot you get to lift your front

I certainly agree to some extent. At our larger Northern farm and bush, for instance, I'd never want to go back to using a tractor to log. But Dad's farm and woodlot where I want this winch for is a much more smaller, micky-mouse operation. Only a bout 80 acres is standing timber or bush, and about 15 of that is pretty much useless scrub. I'm also not new to the foibles and troubles of logging with tractors. For many years we ran a reasonably-sized hardwood operation (reasonably sized for the 1930's through 60's anyway) and more recently sold a lot of pulp and maple to the nearby flooring and veneer plant, using only tractors to skid and load. The best time we made was something like 48 minutes from two guys pulling in the bush with trees standing, to pulling out with the triaxle loaded to the hilt and headed for the mill. And that was primarily with an old 2WD Ford 5000 with no winch - only using the three point drawbar to skid. I know that's not fast nor easy by today's standards and it was a lot of work. But even though I know the foibles of tractor logging and how much handier a skidder is, I'm willing to go backwards a few steps in technology at Dad's, where it's just a pokey little family operation done at our own pace and not worth having another engine to maintain nor piece of equipment to shed.

[NE Woodburner]

I have the 4.5 Igland (same as 4.5 Norse) on a 45 Hp tractor. Like thecfarm, I have probably abused it a bit and it has performed very well. My only regret is not buying it sooner than I did.

The only issue I had was on one of the first hitches I pulled with it when it was brand new. I had several logs in a hitch and one was on the hook at the end of the cable where it is swedged. That hook can't swivel like the slides do. Somehow as the logs pulled the cable got twisted and kinked and when the hitch snagged on a rock or stump the cable broke at the point it was kinked. I never use the end hook since that happened and always hitch to a slider. Fortunately I only lost a couple of feet of cable since it broke near the hook.