19.5HP Craftsman Mower woes.

[Old Greenhorn]

I am far from a lawn care nut, but I do like it to look decent and it's that time of year again whether I like it or not.
 The last couple of years I have had a lot of trouble starting it. The engine runs just fine, but doesn't get fuel. If I squirt gas in the carb it starts right p, then dies. Last year I discovered if I started it with a squirt then kept it running with a dribble eventually it would suck gas, fill the filter and run on it's own and I could mow. That's how I got it through last year. Mowers are not a priority for me.
 BUT, after 2 years of nonsense, I thought it was time I fixed it. Besides, the gas dribble trick wasn't working anyway. My suspicion was that the fuel pump has an issue and when I opened that up today I think it is seeping through the diaphragm. I am having a hard time locating a rebuild kit for this without taking a guess and a leap of faith. But that was my decision and I headed toward the house when I had another thought. I pulled the fuel line off at the carb/pump and put a big 60cc hypo on it and tried to suck fuel up from the tank. No soap. For some reason I cannot pull fuel up to the filter. If I didn't have to take the whole body off the machine to put a new line in it, I would do that but that's a huge job. The filter is brand new from last season and clean and clean. I can blow air through it.

 I think I am going to get the pump rebuild kit anyway, but think I may have 2 problems.

 What do you guys think?

[SawyerTed]

Sounds like something has clogged the outlet at the tank.  I had a generator that had a screen at the tank outlet that got clogged.  Took a while to trace that.

The mower I have now behaved as you describe.  It had plastic shavings from the manufacture of the tank clogging the outlet.  It was a warranty repair so I'm not sure what the mechanic did but it's been trouble free since. 

Both times they would run a little while then stop.  Or feeding  fuel from a separate tank they would run nonstop. 

Take the cap off the tank and blow some air back through the fuel line to the tank.  Low pressure.  If fuel flows afterwards you know there's something in there. 

[SawyerTed]

Check for a collapsed inner liner of the fuel line between the tank and filter.   Sometimes they separate and the inner liner will close.  

[rusticretreater]

Depending on your fuel tank you can try multiple things to clean it out besides removing it.

Get a small aquarium fish net.  Blow air back through the fuel line to stir things up and fish things out.  Try that a few times.

Then siphon the gas out through a cloth into a container.  I would use one of the drill powered ones so you can pump it out fast while stuff is still floating in the fuel.

The last step is wiping the inside of the tank and inspection.  Harbor freight sells this pack of cotton swabs.  Some are big and long which you can use to get in there. You want to do more sweeping than actually picking up. Then put some grease on one to get the junk and lift it out.

You can try to look inside with a mirror and light if you have them to see what it looks like in there.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well thanks for the input thus far guys. Any access to the actual fuel line is very difficult. I would have to disassemble not only the body, but also half the frame to swap out the line and get access to the tank connection. That would make it such a project I would question how much time it would not take and it's value overall. I can't even put my eyes the tank outlet, let alone get to it.

 I can easily, by mouth, blow back through the entire line and filter to the tank and hear the bubbles. I have not yet ordered a pump kit. I should be able to pull gas up the line with a syringe and cannot. In the next session, I will try the same thing on the line that goes from the filter to the tank, but without the filter. With some difficulty I can replace the line from the filter to the carb, but not the other half back to the tank. I don't think it's the filter, but I can't rule it out yet. I put a new fuel filter in every year lately because of this issue.

 Putting in a new fuel line would already be done if I could get at the dang thing. I thought it was the pump diaphragm leaking air, but now that I can't suck fuel up the line I am re-thinking that. Yeah, I know your advice above is spot on, but getting at that line is just a miserable job. I should know more tomorrow.

[Old Greenhorn]

Dang it, I can't stand it when I don't know the answer and I keep thinking about it. You guys broke it down a bit for me and made me focus a bit.  I went back out to the shop and sucked up fuel direct from the tank to where the filter goes with no effort. So I believe than part of the line is in good shape. Then I put the filter on the line and added a little stub to it so  could connect the syringe and again, I had no trouble filling the filter with gas.  So it comes down to the line between the filter and the carb/pump. I don't have enough hands to check that line, but when I went looking for a stub to connect to the filter I found a new piece of Gates 5/16 fuel line which will be enough to replace that line section. I still think the fuel pump diaphragm is leaking air or fuel based on the gas stains I saw on the wrong side of the diaphragm, but I think that line is also a problem. It's an easy change out in the morning.

 Sometimes I just need a friend or two to help me think it through. I'll let ya know how it goes tomorrow. I may just order that kit anyway and get it on the way but I won't see it until next week. Some rain tonight, a little tomorrow, then a bunch more rain for the next few days, so I guess I am in no real rush, but I hate a broken machine.

[SawyerTed]

Nothing like a little problem to keep your mind active.  

Troubleshooting 101, which I know you know, do all the simple zero dollar stuff first and work up to the problem.  Sounds like you are on the right track. 

Once the fuel supply side is confirmed, the pump is next.  

[Big_eddy]

I'm assuming the fuel pump is an engine mounted pulse operated one and not an electric one. They have a diaphragm between two sections, with check valves. The engine pulse moves the diaphragm back and forth and the  check valves keep the fuel moving in the same direction.  I just replaced one on my Onan. One of the check valves wasn't holding, so the line would drain over time and then wouldn't prime again. I had to do the same gas trickle into the carb trick a few times until it primed, after which it was fine unless it sat for a couple of weeks. Then repeat.  (The fuel lines were old and may have had a crack or two, just to help matters)
Do you have a vacuum pump? I found if I connected a long clear tube to the fuel pump outlet and applied vacuum with my mityvac until I saw fuel in the clear tube I could manually prime the pump. Then it would start right away. A new $12 pump and fuel lines solved the problem.
If you can't pull fuel up from the tank through the pump, then one of your check valves could be seized/plugged.

I took my pump apart thinking I'd clean and rebuild it, but for $12 I just replaced it.

[Old Greenhorn]

Eddy, I don't know if you read all the posts earlier, but yes, I have followed that logic, and yes, I have a very similar pump but it is mounted direct to the carb base. I cannot get access to the outlet port to suck fuel up through the pump, that is all integral. But my suspicions are the same as noted about. The syringe I mentioned a few times serves as the vacuum pump. I think I have it down to the fuel line between the pump and the filter. That will get tested some more this morning, then replaced. I do have a new pump kit on order, but that will take a few days.
 I am hopeful (since it didn't rain last night that I can get this running and at least mow my back lawn today before the 4-5 days of rai we have coming.
 I will check again into those check valves in the pump block. I could not detect movement in them so they may be frozen. I still believe the diaphragm is a little porous, so I want to rebuild the pump anyway.
 Let's see what happens when I test and change out that line. I have t pull some cowlings to get at it.

[Old Greenhorn]

OK, mystery Solved. That fuel line between the filter and the pump was shot. I can't believe it even worked at all in the past. A New piece of line and even with the pump as it always was and it started right up. I mowed the front and back lawns and beat the rai coming in this evening which would have put the grass height up at a uncomfortable height to mow.

 Guess I'll put that rebuild kit of the shelf or do it when I get really bored and have nothing else to fix. 

 Thanks for all the help fellas!

[Freedy201]

That rebuild kit can definitely wait until you're in the mood for a project.

[SawyerTed]

It's nice to catch a break every once in awhile!  

New mower?!?  You don't need no stinking' new mower!  

[Old Greenhorn]

You know Ted, that's pretty funny you put it that way. You triggered a memory I hadn't thought of in many years.
 When we bought this place, our first place living outside suburbia for both of us I KNEW there was no way I could mow the lawn with a push mower. It would be a 2 day job and for a working Dad, it was out of the question. So our first major purchase was a lawn tractor and I was worried about where to find the funds with all the other costs we had with a new house with bigger needs. But I was smarter than I thought and rather than go to a box store (which we didn't have in our area for another 10 years anyway), I decided to go big in a weird way. We had a trailer in a campground back then in farm country. SO I went to a tractor dealer. They had all sorts of used farm machinery, JD, New Holland, you name it. Their 10 acre lot as filled with big machines up to and including combine. Now a lawn tractor with a 50" deck was both a toy and an annoyance for them to have in their yard. They sold it to me for a song to get rid of it and gave me half off on a small trailer for it (new). I bought a 18HP Simplicity that I beat the heck out of between mowing, dragging a disc harrow, fence harrow, bottoming plow, and what ever else I could tie on the 3/8 back plate I made for it. I even flipped it over backwards once trying to roll a (too big) log. $400. all in and I still have that tractor, but it needs a new PTO pulley and I can't get the old one off or find a replacement. Great little machine, it's a horse. I know have this Craftsman mower thing that I got from my Pop and it cuts grass and pulls the little dump trailer. It's a mower. 
 
 But frankly I have little interest in mowing the lawn after 40 years, it's just another chore. So NO, I do not need a new mower, not do I want one. It would be an expense that I don't see any return or value on it, besides neat grass. I already have the Craftsman, the Simplicity, and a John Deere 112 which was restored from the frame up and looks great but needs a new engine or a coil, which they want hundreds for these days). I don't need another one.

 40 years ago my lawn tractor was really important. These days my perspective is different.

 Funny thing: about 45 minutes after I finished mowing today my son shows up with his crew. He does the place across the road and the one in the woods behind me. He said he was gonna mow my lawn, but I beat him to it. So it's not like I would be living with foot high wees if I couldn't mow.  I do my lawn (front and back) in about an hour and a half. He does it in 20 minutes. 

[rusticretreater]

Another FF success story!