Help before it’s too late!

[CumberlandChris76]

Hey yall, greetings from Middle Tennessee. I have been reading the forums for about a week trying to gather some information and I just need some direction. A little about me and my situation. I've done alot of different jobs in my life from heavy equipment to factory work to logging. The last several years I've been in investment real estate and have pretty much retired from a day job. My wife and I own 250 acres of hardwood timber with the bulk being white oak. The rest is a mix of hickory, red oak, poplar and gum. I have a tractor with all the attachments, just about every tool a man could want and a bunch of free time. Would it make sense to get into milling? I already know that I would enjoy it. My hang up is I just can't get a direction on a business model. I don't want to just start taking down trees and milling them into something that is not going to be worth much. I'm only 48 and have all the time I need to devote to building a hobby that can make a few bucks. I'm thinking about buying a hydraulic mill along the lines of a lt40 or a timber king 1620 but haven't completely decided on that just yet. Maybe a Cooks. Anyway, if you were in this same situation what would be your plan? Any advice and direction would be appreciated greatly. Thanks and it's good to meet y'all.

[teakwood]

I'm only 48 and have all the time I need to devote to building a hobby

Sorry, can't help with a intelligent answer, our northern members who know the markets there will do that.

but dang do i hope i can say that phrase someday in the next 15-20 years, would be nice to have a hobby.

can i count work as a hobby?!  

[doc henderson]

How do you know you will like it?  Can you find a mill near you to help at for a day?  I looked for 15 years before I bought mine.  Sounds like you have the time, land, equipment, money, and presumed support from any partners, spouse or otherwise.  I have a timberking 2000 and would go for a 2020 if I were doing it now.  The 2500 only gains you about 3 inches cutthroat and more power.  the 2020 was redesigned and has a e more cutthroat inches than mine.  I am impressed with Woodmizer as well.  there are pros and cons, and you end up loving what you have.  The midsized mill will do most anything for less money than the giant mills, maybe just not as fast.  The 70 wide would be great but more money.  TK is great to work with, and I always start with Matt.  The WM folks I have met, are great also.  Marty.  good luck and nice position to be in.

[doc henderson]

To add, they are all sponsors, and if you call, please let them know you are a member of the forum and sought advice.  It is good for the sponsors to hear that their support is appreciated.

[scsmith42]

If I were you, I'd consider using some of that material to build your own timberframe home on property that you intend to keep long term.  By all means acquire a strong, hydraulic sawmill.  In addition to Timberking, Cooks, Baker and Woodmizer all have some excellent offerings.  Woodmizer in particular has a system where you can add extensions onto the mill for milling long beams, versus most of the others that are limited to whatever bed length that you purchase.

Swing blade mills are easy to extend, but very manual in terms of operation.  Trust me.... if you're going to mill a lot you want a hydraulic mill.

Re timberframes, Thomas Massie is currently a congressman representing Kentucky who built his own off-grid timberframe home about 20 years ago.  This was before he joined congress; he was a successful engineer who sold his company before building his home.

His user name here is Thomas-in-Kentucky and he has some great posts about living off-grid and building his home.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=20534.0

Just something to think about...  Welcome to the FF and best of success to you.

Scott

[Sixacresand]

Just be careful not to turn a large fortune into a small fortune.  I would start off with a  multi purpose FEL tractor and a hydraulic sawmill. 

[GAB]

Woodmizer in particular has a system where you can add extensions onto the mill for milling long beams, versus most of the others that are limited to whatever bed length that you purchase.

CC76:
As an FYI if you purchase a WM mill and plan on adding extension beds to saw long timbers make sure and tell the WM personnel up front, because mills with cat tracks can only use part of a 6 foot extension bed, so I'm told.  Extension beds are available in 6', 12', and 24' lengths.  WM sold a mill with four  24' extension beds to the US Navy.  They were building a replica of a ship and needed to be able to saw masts.
With accessory equipment you could saw shingles and clapboards with a WM.  I have no experience with the other brands and I don't know if they can.
It all depends on what you desire to do with your mill.
GAB  

[fluidpowerpro]

Get your feet wet before jumping in.
Lots to learn.

[doc henderson]

TK has extensions but the longer you get, the less you will want to try to travel with it.  WM has a cantilever head and therefore you have an open side for nubs and stuff with a 4-post head it is very solid, but the gantry limits the log cut width to 36 inches on mine.  WM has an electric strip that requires some knowledge for some functions. and TK is hydraulic for most functions.  We have members in your neck of the woods that may chime in.  You can set up a stationary mill and lumber yard, like @YellowHammer and @customsawyer or a mobile mill that cuts em and leaves um like @Magicman and @WV Sawmiller.  TK is in KC MO and WM has folks around as well.  most will give you names of owners that agree to show you their stuff.

[SawyerTed]

Mostly white oak you say?

I believe I would avoid a sawmill business in this economy.   It's hard going for sawmills right now.  The portable sawmill business is gaining some momentum.  

There are still COVID millers trying to earn beer money with mills they purchased when lumber prices shot up.  So there's a glut of rough cut lumber for sale.  I'm seeing hardwoods on FB marketplace going for $1 a board foot, pine at $0.80 a bdft.  I can't cut logs, saw and market against that.  

If I were trying to get into a lumber related business right now, I think I'd buy a kiln, a straight line saw, and a four sided molder.  I would find some of these guys who jumped in the sawmill business and need to move their rough cut lumber AND buy from them.  Then dry and process lumber into t&g and custom moldings.  That might mean getting a truck and a Moffit forklift instead of a mill to go collect packs of lumber.  

If you have good sized white oaks, if they are stave quality, cutting and selling stave logs is a good strategy.  I sold 40 logs and paid for over half my sawmill. 

[TreefarmerNN]

Years ago, I was in a similar situation except that I also had a more than full time job and not enough time for a business.  But one thing I learned was while I enjoyed sawing, the only way to make any money with my own timber was to build a market before I cut a board.  That sounds backward, I know.  How can you have a market when you don't have a product?

My advice is to spend some time really looking at what you have in your timber and what you can sell locally or within reasonable distance.  Who are your potential users?  Is there a barrel maker close by.  There may be as Lynchburg isn't far nor are all the Kentucky distillers.  Do you have specialty woods like eastern red cedar or walnut and is there a cabinet maker who wants/needs woods?  Unless you want to drop a LOT of money into a high volume mill, you will be selling into niche markets not shipping tractor trailer loads of lumber to Home Depot so look for those markets that can use smaller quantities of lumber and figure out exactly what they want.  Do they want rough cut?  Does it need to be kiln dried?  KD and planed? 

Once you know your market, then buy equipment to make the product you can sell.  Hopefully you can realize a way to build the process in steps, i.e. a small market for rough cut lumber, then add drying capacity so you are selling some rough cut, some dried.  Then maybe add planing to the sales mix until you hit the sweet spot of what you can reasonably produce and make some money without killing yourself.   

[caveman]

I'm probably the last person on the FF you want to take business advice from, but if I decided that we were going to purchase another mill, especially with a diesel engine, I'd try to find a low-hour, pre-tier 4 diesel.

It seems that the quality of some manufactured items has suffered since March of 2020.  

Remember, the milling of the lumber is only one step in the process.  It can be a slippery slope of drying, surfacing, storing and selling wood as well as dealing with waste and biproducts.

[240b]

Producing lumber and hoping to sell it on speculation, is rough. For a number of reasons.  Sawyer Teds on the right track, turning rough lumber into a better product.  Except 95% of these backyard guys produce a low quality piece of lumber, which will never make anything except a barn board.    For me, its producing a finished item which is not a commodity. Ive seen quotes for custom sawing here locally by outfits doing good quality work. the bdft prices are below cost, at least for me.  Id focus on growing high quality trees on the property, and buying more land.      

[SawyerTed]

A man would have to be good buyer.  Can't buy junk and would develop a group of quality sawyers and cull the poor quality ones.  There are good sawyers  around, it's a matter of finding them.  

Good producers might benefit from some training to help them reach the skill level needed.  

[Larry]

If you have good sized white oaks, if they are stave quality, cutting and selling stave logs is a good strategy.  I sold 40 logs and paid for over half my sawmill.

I have some stave quality white oak on my small woodlot. If I sawed them for lumber I would be loosing money.

[Magicman]

My intention was to saw and sell when I bought my sawmill.  Not only did I know nothing about sawing, I also knew nothing about marketing lumber.  I did very well my first year and repaid myself for the cost of the sawmill, but then my business profile quickly changed to portable custom sawing.  

No shed, no kiln, no inventory, no support equipment, no help, no buying nor selling anything and that was over 20 years ago.  I saws um and leaves um. 

[John S]

Where I am located in Northwest New Jersey, white oak is hard to come by and very much in demand.  Check out local businesses and see if the potential is there.  

[beenthere]

Just watched the latest video from Andruw's Lumber, and the father/son operation seems to be busy sawing logs. 

[SawyerTed]

Brett, Andruw's dad, has been a commercial saw filer, mill operator and is The Saw Doctor in Fleetwoid, NC. That little mill is on the hill next to Brett's shop.  I believe Brett was raised in Wilkes County and is well known as a miller.  

I've visited the mill more than once.  It's a great little mill.  I believe Andruw was in middle school (if not before)  when convinced Brett to put that mill together.  

I had Brett hammer a circle saw blade for a firewood processor a guy who worked for the wood products company heated to try to change the teeth. He heated the rim enough to warp the blade.   Brett repaired the blade, installed new teeth and  hammered it for the proper speed. 

[customsawyer]

Why don't you take a few trees down, pull them out, and hire a portable mill to come mill them. Then try to market the lumber. You will gain the experience of watching the mill and stacking the lumber. You will probably learn a lot more in the marketing process. Keep accurate records on all of your cost. I stress all of your cost. Including your time. Then think about what it would cost you to do the same thing with your own mill. Include things like insurance for yourself, mill, business, product, workers comp if needed, collecting and paying taxes, fuel, time, and anything else I've left off the list. Sell the lumber and see how much profit you have left. Remember, it's not how much you make. It's how much you keep.
Another way to approach this, would be to buy some lumber from one of the other mills in the area and see if you can add value to it and then market it. Many ways to dip your toes into the market without jumping in the deep end.

[Old Greenhorn]

This thread would be more useful, interesting, and informative if the OP participated in the conversation a little. Just sayin'.

[GAB]

This thread would be more useful, interesting, and informative if the OP participated in the conversation a little. Just sayin'.

OG:
You are correct, however his brain just might be on overload trying to digest what comments and suggestions that have been sent his way so far.
GAB

[doc henderson]

He was on yesterday am about 9, he has only one post.  maybe he is reading and not posting.  If he reads this he may try to comment and let us know he is following.  he registered 5-9.

[Digger Don]

Even if he's not responding, I'm sure others are benefiting from the discussion. I've learned a lot from other threads where the OP seems to have disappeared. Carry on. Don