Getting started

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Hi, to all the members and guests!

As I'm still in the research stages of milling, finding this forum was just what the doctor ordered, so I'm very glad to be here.

To begin with, I grew up on a small farm where most folks were pretty self-sufficient.  And although that runs contrary to today's trends, I still have the desire to do the things we all did when I was younger -- specifically -- I want to build my own home with my own hands!  In fact, that's been my idea of the American dream for as long as I can remember.

Along those lines, I also want to employ the resources --  namely timber -- from my own land to accomplish this.  In short, I want to give milling my own lumber a try to begin with, and then see where that takes me afterword.

As I'm still not positive about which method I'll employ -- log construction or timber framing -- I'm in a bit of a quandry when it comes to mills.  I'm sure it's an old story, and an old question, but here goes:

Which type of portable mill would you START OUT WITH?   That is, if you wanted to start out by milling either timbers or logs, as well as dimensional framing lumber, from trees that don't exceed say 30" OD, which would you choose?  (max crew = two men)

I realize there's a myriad of factors that could enter into this, but I'd really enjoy reading the general thoughts of some folks who've probably said, "If I had to start over, I'd..." 

Regardless, any thoughts or recommendations are most appreciated

B in NOLA

[AtLast]

Welcome to the Forum!!!!
Your right on track as far as realizing the myrid of factors....you have an idea for your pursuit and follow that..in my opinion...as long as you know what YOU want to mill and what for at this point is all good....like most in here...once folks find out you have a mill you will find that you will become a popular " friend"....none the less...as far as your own applications go..in my opinion...you have the right idea...to use your resources...for a particular reason.......my only warning is...once you start milling...you'll be hooked....and by applying the material you produce...well shoot.....ALL the better...

[Ernie]

First WELCOME to the forum B in Nola.

You will get all kinds of opinions, all well considered and all with distinct merits.

I started with an Alaskan mill using a double ended bar and two chainsaw powerheads.
Reason, it was cheap.  Way too hard to use for an old man like me.

I now run a twin saw. ie circle saw with a vertical blade and a horizontal blade.  I can quartersaw the whole log if I want, the wood comes off finished, accurate and square, it's easy to use and can be a single man operation.  The logs are left on the ground and only need to be rolled into the mill, there is minimum waste.  I can get a slabbing attachment if I want to.  Mill cost in US $ about 13000. here in New Zealand.  Maximum cut 6" by 12" by 17 feet.

The maximum log diameter is just over 6 feet.  When milling smaller diameter logs I lay multiple logs under the mill and cut them all at once up to a total width of 6 feet.

I can tow the rig around behind my four wheel motorbike and set it up anywhere but prefferably on a level patch of ground.

There are many options  this is just one.

Good luck.

BEWARE  Making sawdust is addictive, the Surgeon General should put a warning on each mill.

[AtLast]

BEWARE  Making sawdust is addictive, the Surgeon General should put a warning on each mill

         AMEN TO THAT ERNIE.....you hit that nail on the head.....OPPS...I shouldnt use that term in here... :D

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks for the welcome, AtLast. ;D

I'm glad to read that we're kindred when it comes to my ideas about my own resources.  I also like what I read about getting "hooked."  Considering the mess many people have to deal with, that's an addiction I could live with :D  

In fact, as I go through my research, I find myself being pulled slowly away from desk and out to my 4x4.  Hmmm...must be those old memories of the farm beckoning.  Anyway, leaving the race to the rats doesn't sound bad at all.

Thank you,
B
PS - Really like the "treecycle" moniker.

[DanG]

Welcome, B.  Where is NOLA?  You talkin' bout N'awlins? ???

Hey brdmkr!  You ain't tha new guy anymore! 8) 8) :D :D :D

I'm with Ernie on the favorite mill type, for my own purposes, at least.  I think the learning curve is a bit easier to negotiate, and the mills are less labor-intensive for a sawyer working alone.  One of our sponsors make's a really good one in several sizes and models.  That would be D&L Doublecut, seen on the left of your screen.  Used mills from various manufacturers are readily available, too.

I like the swing-blade type, too.  I didn't go that route for several reasons. 1. I'm too old to be pushing anything.  2.  I found a used Mobile Dimension on the cheap.  3.  I prefer to work alone, and don't find them practical for that, especially considering reason # 1.

I'm not a huge fan of bandmills, but lots of folks are, and are successful with them.  Not knocking them, (that would be foolish) they're just not my cup o' tea.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Well thanks to you as well, Ernie and DanG  ;D

Right on the money...NOLA = New Orleans, LA.  However, I actually live across the river in a town called Gretna.  Don't you have one of those nearby, DanG?

Yes, I've seen some video of the D&L double-cut saw and it's one of those on my list for further research.  In fact, I need to call those guys up there and ask if anyone owns one near me.  Ernie, is that the type of saw you're using over in NZ?

DanG, I'm assuming you're a native Floridian?  We may be some of the last of those in existence :D

As I wrote earlier, a sawdust addiction is one a man could actually live with.

B in NOLA

[Ernie]

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=176

In my gallery, there are pics of my mill, this is the link

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=10731.0

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=12749.0

A couple of links to threads about the mill.

[DanG]

Not native, I'm afraid, but I live about 4 miles from Gretna.  Was born in Thomasville, Ga, about 20 miles north of Fla.  Moved to Tallahassee when I was 16.

I think the next good chance to see a whole bunch of mills in action would be the Sunbelt Ag Expo in Moultrie, Ga in mid-October.  It's a huge 3-day show, and well worth the trip if you can swing it.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks again, Ernie and DanG.

Ernie, those pictures of your mill -- especially the one with the scrag redwood log :D -- made me very envious.  I wonder if Rimu has a distributor in the US?  Hmmm...

DanG, thanks for the tip on the Moultrie show.  It would be a pretty good ride from here, but it may well be worth it.  Do a lot of the mill manufacturers give demonstrations at the show?

B in NOLA 

[Ernie]

Here is their website but as they aren't FF sponsors it is probably better to deal with someone who is.

http://www.rimuengineering.co.nz/main.html


The one I've got is the contractor deluxe 12 X 6

IMHO, the others aren't worth it, too ackward  to use for the smaller ones or the addon's are too expensive for the bigger ones.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Great link again, Ernie.

Hey, there was one photo on there that looked pretty familiar!   Which model do you own?  And, by the way, the sponsor's products always get a good look first  ;D

B in NOLA 

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Sorry, Ernie.  The flipping back and forth from the links to the forum got me crossed up.  Thanks for providing your model information (already).

B in NOLA

[customsawyer]

First of all welcome to the forum. It's getting pretty deep in here with all the "DanG" talk about circle mills. :D As you will learn there are all diferent types of mills for all different types of folks just keep your eyes and ears open in her and you will figure out what will work best for you.
I run a WoodMizer, wait let me think about that it runs me, anyway I love to make the sawdust and the lumber. My mill has served me very well and has done all that I have asked of it sometimes more. Wish I could say that about all things in my life  but at least I can say it about my mill.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks for the welcome, customsawyer.

Just so you know, the only mill I've ever actually seen [portable anyway] was a Wood-Mizer LT 40 Hydrualic -- and I thought it was terrific!  Nevertheless, I'm one of the most conservative folks you'll ever want to meet and, consequently, I do loads of research before I buy anything of value (you should ask my wife about the diamond I bought for her wedding ring sometime) :D

So...for me, it's all a matter of looking, listening and a lot of reading.  Therefore, I'm sure I'll be seeing as many of the mills on "my list" as possible before I buy anything.

Thanks for your thoughts,
B

[J_T]

DanG look out we got compotishon on being tight thought we had the market cornered :D :D Welcome  B

[DanG]

Compotishon?  HA!  Ya mean that lil' ol' Customsawyer fella?  Is that the best  the bandmill guys can come up with?  Pshaww!  He ain't no more than about 6'3, and a little ol skinny thing, sorta like that guy that used ta be in th' movies.  What was his name? Oh yeah, Tarzan, that was him.  Shucks, I can take 10 like him before breakfast. ;D

[Ianab]

Hi there B and welcome to the forum

I run an old Peterson swingblade and I recomend you have a look at them... Also the Lucas and D&L's model as well.

Reasoning here is that you get a very capable mill for a good price. If you are cutting beams and construction lumber then the kerf saving of a bandmill becomes less important.

If you are cutting 30" logs a small manual bandmill isn't going to be much fun, a LT40 with hydralics would handle them fine, but thats going to set you back a lot more than a swingblade.

Big plus with the swingblade is not having to move the log when sawing, it just sits on the ground if it's a big log, or some basic wooden bunks if it's a little 30"er. This saves a huge amount of weight and cost, the mill rails only support the sawhead.

You didn't mention what support equipment you have and if you need to be portable or not. If you have a loader or decent tractor it makes any mill more efficient, but with a swinger you can at least haul the mill out to where the log is and saw it up where it lays.

Ernies twinsaw has all the advantages of a swingblade as well, just dont know where you will get one in the US  ;)

Cheers

Ian

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

G'day, Ian...and Cheers right back at ya!

Yes, the swingers and the double cuts are moving up my list quickly.  They seem to be highly flexible -- especially for someone who DOESN"T currently own any log handling equipment of any kind...although I suppose I could make some ruts with my 4x4 if I had to :D

Seriously, though, the swingers do seem like a good starting point for someone with land that wants to utilize his timber resources.  The thing is...I'm also looking to slow my life down a bit, so I'm playing with the idea of starting a small scale business of some sort down the road. 

As I grew up on small farm -- in an area where everyone pitched in to build things -- I've had saw dust in my veins since childhood.  In short, I want to leave the rat race to the rats and get back to my roots.  Having said all that, I learned enough from the corporate world to be very cautious with business investments (even if they're presently potential investments). 

Anyway, the investment factor leaves a few GENERAL questions about ANY of the mills, not just the Peterson.  For example, does the finished product necessitate the purchase of additional equipment -- planers, edgers, expensive setters/sharpeners and the like.  The Wood-Mizer LT40 Hydraulic I saw rendered a product that was pretty close to finished.  The lumber I saw cut (Cypress 1x4s) was consistent in both finish and dimension.  Heck, the guy even ran a lumber gauge down the length of the boards to show me how "tight" they were, and he was right -- hard to argue with that.

However, it's also quite clear that there are downsides to the "big" mills.  The time and capital you must invest in blades, for instance, makes a huge investment even larger (on a daily basis).  It also occurred to me that there's another problem inherent to the bandies -- portability.  Yes, you can pull them to a tract of land anywhere, BUT can you always count on the serene pastures you see depicted in the demonstration videos.  No...I've got enough grey matter left to know that the grade of the site and the available space are serious considerations.  In short, some of the monsters I've seen in the videos would make dynamite small-scale stationary mills, but truly "portable"...I'm not convinced yet.

So those are my thoughts transferred to the keyboard.  There's nothing personal at all to any of my nonsense; I'm just trying my best to make a sound investment,  By the way, Ian, what is the finished quality of the dimensional lumber you've cut with your Petie?  Are the dimensions fairly consistent on your boards?  What do you do with the slab you end up with at the bottom of your logs?  Some of the video I've watched seems to end just before that part...and some of those things definitely look like they've still got lumber locked in there? 

Thanks very much for your post...and any thoughts or comments are much appreciated.

Bill in NOLA
       

[Haytrader]

One of our members (Duke ) has a D&L he wants to sell.
He sawed a bunch of walnut on his farm and doesn't need it anymore.
If you want his # I have it.

[DanG]

Bill, you can recover that last board in the bottom slab.  Sometimes it is worth the effort, sometimes not.  It just depends on how much effort you're willing to put into that one board.  The easiest and best way is to set it aside and start on the next log.  At some time during the processing of that one, leave a small "standing slab" on it to help hold your stock in place.  Put your left-over slab on, face down, and skim the round part off of it.  You will still need to edge the recovered board, too.

Think real seriously about coming over for the Moultrie show, and allow time to be there for at least 2 days. You will get to see a LOT of sawing on all different types of portable mills.  You get to meet and talk with the owners of many of the companies, too.  Ask them ANYTHING, and you'll get a straight, knowlegable answer.  Last year, I provided the logs for the Peterson crew, and came away with over 2,000 bf of lumber.  All the others were generating similar stacks, so it is a very active time.  Don't miss it if you're serious about making an informed decision. ;)

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks, Haytrader in Kansas.

Yes, I would like to get Duke's number.  The D&L product is definitely one of the mills I'm considering.

B in NOLA

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Very good thoughts, as always, DanG ;D

As it sounds like a pretty big shindig, the Moultrie show is very attractive.  By the way, how do you like the service you've received from Peterson?  As they're out of NZ, that is naturally a big concern.

Bill in NOLA

[DanG]

Couldn't really address that, since I don't have a Peterson mill. :'(  I have an old clunker of a Mobile Dimension Saw, that is still pumping out pretty boards after 20 years.  The last 3 years of that was under my inexperienced hand.

In spite of what I said earlier, ya really oughta check out that D&L that Duke has.  IF it is the size you want, and the money is right, you could hardly go wrong.  The D&L is a fine machine, and would be my choice if I were buying a new one.

[Haytrader]

Duke Marrs  XXXXXXXX

Fowler, Kansas.

Not sure of the exact saw he has.
It has a 25 HP and he made it mobile after he got it. \



ADMIN NOTE: Contact haytrader for number. We can get in big trouble for posting someone elses contact information on the internet. If you want to post your own, thatsup to you, but its against forum rules to post someone elses. (Posting a Company's Information "Might" be different)

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Sorry 'bout that, Dan.  For some reason, I thought you owned a swinger ???  Yes, I definitely need to know which model Duke has and go from there.

While I'm here, I might as well inquire about your Mobile Dimension.  What are the up- and down-sides of that type?  From what I've seen -- in video form -- it looks like a monster of a circle saw  It also looks like it would eat the General Sherman Sequoia if it had to.  With a name like that, I'd love to see it too :D

B in the BE  

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks again, Haytrader.

I'll give Duke a call when I get a chance.  Right now, I'm working on my Cummins RAM and typing in between trips to the garage

Bill

[twostroke_blood]

Welcome to the Forum B.   If I had to do it again? :-\??? First of all I can only speak for my mill, and I'd say 30" logs have no business on a 36" band mill  ;D. The biggest problem I have is turning the danged things. I think 24" dia. is about the max for me, and even that is a stretch when your cutting tweenty footers like i am currently doing. I just finished cutting 200 2x6x20's, and they are a bear to handle. A couple of thoughts. 23 horse power is under powered for the big stuff. I wouldnt purchase a Mill again without a hydrolic log lifter. ditto on turner, and most of all, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
Here's an example of a log that had no business being on my mill.
If I had a circle Mill like these fella's are talking about, I would have tackled this beautiful Maple

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Great post, twostroke!  It's hard to tell, but is that a Cook's mill in the photo?  Are you stating that 30" OD is simply too big for a 36" mill -- realistically speaking -- or are you saying that they're too big for the engine on your particular mill?

I was also wondering whether or not you are enjoying your work?  On the other hand, with a motto like "I love the smell of Twostroke in the morning," you must be liking life :D  By the way, that's a syruppy looking Maple you photographed there.  It must have broken you to pass that thing up!

Bill
 

[DanG]

Hey Bill!  When ya get through workin on that Dodge, road test it on over here and gimme a hand wit dis Ford diesel that's settin in my yard, eh? ;D :D

Yeah, the Sherman could be done on an MD. ;D  I'd want to burn the wood, though. :D :D :D  Actually, the MD would be on the tree, instead of the tree being on the mill.  The MD can be configured in several ways, to accomodate any size log.  Mine is trailer mounted, so it is limited by the size of the trailer.  The way it sits, I could, theoretically, handle a log up to 48"x24'.  No way I'd want to tackle one that big, though.  I could take it off the trailer and make a few adjustments, and take on whatever you could bring to it.

IMO, the biggest advantage is ease of operation, especially for a beginning sawyer.  The simplicity lets you concentrate on the log, rather than operating the saw.

The biggest limitation is in the size boards you can cut.  Here again, there are mods that vary that factor.  Mine is limited to a bit over 4" on the horizontal cut, so the biggest board I can make is a 4x12.  I'm thinking of buying a large edger blade from another forum member, that would allow me to cut 8"+ on the horizontal, but I'd have to give up the upper edger.  I'm thinking it would be worth it to increase my flexibility.  For instance, if I'm sawing a customer's log, and he wants 2x6 or 2x8s, and I get down to where I have less than 6 or 8 inches of depth left in the log, I'm stuck making 2x4s instead of what he wants.  That ain't good for business.

Hey, Randy!  I think I just talked myself into buying that blade!!  :D :D :D

Another advantage is the ease of "one-man" operation.  I just park the Hootiemobile(forklift) behind the operator's position, then I can stand there like a gentleman : and let the mill do the work.  The board return will slide the boards straight onto the forks with just a little guidance from me.

Some say the kerf is a big issue.  I don't see it that way because it is so easy to recover that last bit of wood in the slabs.  If there isn't enough there to make a 1x4, I can make stickers or tomato stakes faster than you can believe.

If it sounds like I'm a fan of this type of mill, I am.  But I'm not a fan just because I have one, I have one because I like'em!

[twostroke_blood]

Im saying that 30" logs are too big for 36" band mills. I'm sure some will dissagree with me and thats fine. Its not so much that the motor wont handle it. For example im sure an LT-70 Woodmizer with a 62 H.P diesel motor wouldnt have any problem buzzing through the log in my picture. What im saying is that logs of that size are simply to hard to manipulate and handle. If I knew I were going to handle alot of big stuff, I would give the circle mills a look. That being said however, I love band Mills, Im happy with mine for the most part. Its a Hud-son Farm Boss 36H . My dream mill is The W.M LT-70. ;D . One other thing I would do differently is go and seek out owners of various different types of mills and watch them operate. That shouldnt be to hard with this bunch of great guys and ladies. I know I'd love to help someone else with their decision.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

You are helping, twostroke!  Practically every word I've read here is one I'm learning   By the way, you're right!  There's nothing like seeing the mills passing through those logs... 

Shoot, Dan, if I were a little closer, I'd give that (cough) Ferd a try   Seriously, I've been up and down the pike with my Cummins.  In fact, you'd of probably loved watchin' my suburbian injection pump change last year.  The neighbors were crowdin' around like I was Emeril Lagasse himself :D  So, Dan, if YOU had to start over, you'd go with the MDS?

I don't know about you fellers, but I think the free exchange of thoughts that forums like this foster is one of the best things goin' these days... ;)

B in the BE       

[brdmkr]

B

I have not cut the first board with my mill, but it sounds like you and I have similar interests and starting equipment.  Early on, I decided that a swing blade would be my best bet.  I don't have any heavy equipment and mobility was a real issue.  I can take this mill to the log and set up over it.  I also have access to some really large trees.  Some would be a bit much for most of the band mills.  As someone on the forum told me earlier, if you are talking mobility and big logs, a swing mill should be high on the list.  I looked at the Peterson and Lucas mills and ultimately bought the Lucas.  Not that I think the Lucas is superior, but there were a number of factors that made me feel this was the best value for me.  Finally, this forum is great and that you can find out whatever you need to know about milling just by asking.  Good luck in your search for a mill.

[DanG]

B, I been dri...er....thinking about this very question, cause I knew it was comin'. :D :D

Here's the most honestest answer I can give ya;  If I was going to buy a new mill, and money was no object, :  I would have Lindsay Flett build the biggest, baddest Doublecut he could come up with.  I'd like to see a 52" main blade and at least a 30" edger blade, with a 5.9 Cummins perched on top of it.  It would have an 8' wide, four-poster head and 40' of track.  It would be mounted on a drop-deck lowboy, and have an offbearing conveyer that would pull out the back of the trailer like a drawer.  Oh, yeah, while I'm dreaming, an airconditioned operator's cab would be nice, too. ;D :D  One other thing, it would have a hydraulic clamping system, and log loaders mounted on BOTH sides.

Realistically, though,  the largest of D&L's production mills would do nicely.

If I was back to where I was 3 years ago, I'd do exactly what I did then.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

DanG, that's quite a mill you designed   I especially love the CTD power plant you employed   Do you think D&L would be up for building the "Sherman Killer" model?  :D :D

Bill in the Vieux Carrie 

[customsawyer]

First things first DanG don't you go letting your aligator mouth overload your hummingbird backside. :D :D
Not trying to sing the praise of band mills but I cut alot of large 30" + logs up to 20' long and most of them are red oak so please don't think that band mills are not very good at handling these types of logs. I will produce around 4000-5000 bf of 4/4 sawn lumber per day on average. With that being said you should also know that I have extra support equipment like tractor with loader, backhoe with forks, edger, and 1-2 hired men helping to offbear the lumber so it is like has been said before the type of mill has to compliment your personal operation. I am currently looking to up grade to the LT 70 or possible the Timberking 2400 haven't desided as of yet but when I do it will be with another band mill. The people I am sawing for like those 18" wide boards I cut for them.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Good post, Custom Sawyer.

What type of mill are you using now?  I noticed that you like the WMs & the TKs.  What do you think about the Bakers?  That Blue Streak looks like it would be a strong contender for your needs as well.

Bill in NOLA

[Shamus]

All right,
     geez Dan, you should be getting a commission from D&L. You'd think they were the greatest thing since sliced boards. Well, I'm here to tell ya you are on the mark! I have had a custom setup D&L mill for a year now, and have to say that it has been a real beauty. The combination of simple design and thoughtful labour savers is hard to beat. And they will build pretty much whatever you need. Lindsay has been real helpful with any troubleshooting also.
     I haven't run a bandmill, so I won't attempt to compare the two styles of mills. I just think I made the right choice. Plus they are made in my neck of the woods, which is a bonus (Oh Canada!).
     The only drawback I have had is my max cut size on the headsaw is 10" (edger 7" max), and have had a few requests for larger cuts. But that is no knock on D&L, I got exactyl what I asked for.




Saw ya later...

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks, Shamus.  From the nice photo, it appears that you're running a diesel power plant, but, unfortunately, I can't make out a whole lot more.

Would you be kind enough to provide some details about your mill?  If I could learn more about the D&Ls, that would be fantastic!  They are definitely up there on the list...

BTW, what type and size of logs do you typically cut up with your D&L?  Have you done any timber framing type cuts?

Bill in NOLA   

[Shamus]

Sure B, no problem.

     Although I lusted after the biggest and baddest, I compromised a little and had one of the smaller mills upgraded and tweaked. I ended up with a Syncro Saw with a 30 hp Kubota diesel. It was designed to mill 16 footers and takes up to a 36" diameter wood sliver. 10"x7" cut capacity (railway tie option), with 1/4" kerf. Trailer package, hydraulic log rollers and lift posts. I went with the manual dogs, which work well. Board return, electric lift. It is currently back in their shop, I am having it lengthened (20'6" capacity), and a few other changes.
     I have put about 400 hours on the mill, and have mill over 80,000 bd ft., virtually all in 4/4 and 8/4 stock. Logs have been from 6" to 5 feet diameter (quartered, then gently set on mill with Hitachi 200 excavator). Average log size has probably been 20" or so. Mostly milled hemlock (framing, studs, floor joists), spruce (rafters), cedar (decking, siding), balsam fir (framing, studs), and Doug-fir (for something nice down the road). The finish on the boards is really good, and the lumber is very consistent. You get the occasional board that is thick on one end and thin on the other when cutting wood with lots of tension (ie hemlock), but I'm pretty sure that is par for the course. I haven't milled a whole lot of large stock, maybe did about 40 6"x6" and 100 4"x4". We needed some risers for stairs, so I squared some cants which we then broke down with an Alaskan mill.
     Problems I had with the mill mostly occurred in the first 100 hours of operation, and I'm man enough to admit that the majority were due to operator error, and a fairly steep learning curve. Considering my limited milling and mechanical experience, I would have to say thye mill has been a real trooper. And the mill is constructed mostly of off the shelf parts, so repairs are straightforward. Also, Lindsay has always gotten back to me toot sweet when I needed some troubleshooting.

Biggest complaint? What do I do with all this freaking sawdust?? ;)
I have been thinking lately too about adding a car jack and dog extensions to allow me to lift the small end of logs (especially cedar, lots of taper), so I can saw parallel to the pith.

Anything else? More pics perhaps?
OK!









     

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

No, Sir!  I don't think I could ask for a whole lot more than that (but I might think of something later) :D  Shamus, that's a really great post!  Thank you so much for the great effort.

BTW, Mr L. Flett just PM'd me. so he's already shown himself to be real go-getter, which I like.

Hitachi 200?  Alaskan Mill?  Do tell, what are those thingamajiggys?

Thanks again,
Bill in the Vieux Carrie 

[Ianab]

G'day, Ian...and Cheers right back at ya!

Yes, the swingers and the double cuts are moving up my list quickly.  They seem to be highly flexible -- especially for someone who DOESN"T currently own any log handling equipment of any kind...although I suppose I could make some ruts with my 4x4 if I had to :D

Seriously, though, the swingers do seem like a good starting point for someone with land that wants to utilize his timber resources.  The thing is...I'm also looking to slow my life down a bit, so I'm playing with the idea of starting a small scale business of some sort down the road. 

As I grew up on small farm -- in an area where everyone pitched in to build things -- I've had saw dust in my veins since childhood.  In short, I want to leave the rat race to the rats and get back to my roots.  Having said all that, I learned enough from the corporate world to be very cautious with business investments (even if they're presently potential investments). 

Anyway, the investment factor leaves a few GENERAL questions about ANY of the mills, not just the Peterson.  For example, does the finished product necessitate the purchase of additional equipment -- planers, edgers, expensive setters/sharpeners and the like.  The Wood-Mizer LT40 Hydraulic I saw rendered a product that was pretty close to finished.  The lumber I saw cut (Cypress 1x4s) was consistent in both finish and dimension.  Heck, the guy even ran a lumber gauge down the length of the boards to show me how "tight" they were, and he was right -- hard to argue with that.

However, it's also quite clear that there are downsides to the "big" mills.  The time and capital you must invest in blades, for instance, makes a huge investment even larger (on a daily basis).  It also occurred to me that there's another problem inherent to the bandies -- portability.  Yes, you can pull them to a tract of land anywhere, BUT can you always count on the serene pastures you see depicted in the demonstration videos.  No...I've got enough grey matter left to know that the grade of the site and the available space are serious considerations.  In short, some of the monsters I've seen in the videos would make dynamite small-scale stationary mills, but truly "portable"...I'm not convinced yet.

So those are my thoughts transferred to the keyboard.  There's nothing personal at all to any of my nonsense; I'm just trying my best to make a sound investment,  By the way, Ian, what is the finished quality of the dimensional lumber you've cut with your Petie?  Are the dimensions fairly consistent on your boards?  What do you do with the slab you end up with at the bottom of your logs?  Some of the video I've watched seems to end just before that part...and some of those things definitely look like they've still got lumber locked in there? 

Thanks very much for your post...and any thoughts or comments are much appreciated.

Bill in NOLA
       

Bill

The lumber produced by the swingblade / twins saws is generally accurate (if not it's usually operator error  : ) and is edged as you saw it of course. You can remove boards from the mill and straight onto the drying stack if you are set up right. A band saw should produce a smoother finish off the mill, but still needs to be planed anyway. Bandsaw is more likely to produce waves in boards, especially around knots or if the band is getting blunt. Like DanG said, if there is good timber in that bottom slab it can be pushed aside and resawn later. By loading it back onto the next part sawn log and sawing from the other side you can easily produce a full width live edge slab as well. If the log is nice and straight you can generally saw down to only 1" left in the bottom slab, sometimes it's not really worth the work to recover that last board. Also a log will often have a bad face thats full of knots or other defect, just load the log so thats face down so you only waste the rubbish wood anyway.

Blade maintainance is another plus for the swingblades. The sharpener is included in the mill cost, it's a little diamond wheel grinder that you use to touch up the teeth in place on the mill. Takes 5 mins. When the carbide teeth are worn down ( or broken by trying to saw embeded steel ) you get the saw retipped by a local saw doctor.

If you are going to get into selling timber, even as a part time thing you probably need to consider a drying kiln of some sort and maybe a planer in the future. Each step in processing the timber hopefully adds value to it. You can sell a tree for say $100, cut it into logs and haul it to the mill it's worth $200, saw it into $400 of green lumber, that becomes $600  of kiln dried wood, that you make into $800 of planed boards.

I agree about the portability, like Ernie I've hauled the mill into some rough spots with a quad bike as well. Friends farm where I often saw has 4 'flat' paddocks out of 30 so we are often sawing on the side of hills or on dirt tracks. 1/2 the logs I've sawn it would have been impractical to get a heavy trailer mounted mill to the site. And if you did it would probably still be there  :D

All the different mills have their place, and there are several ways of sawing a log. But for a first mill, large logs, limited support equipment I think a swinger is a good option for you. They are high enough production that you can run one commercially if you want, where a similar cost bandmill is a personal use sort of thing.

Hope that helps..

Ian

[Ernie]

Ian is perfectly correct as usual ;)

The only thing I would add is the finish from a circle saw is at least as good as a band mill as long as the blade is kept sharp(not a problem with the diamond grinder) and you don't try to push it too hard.

You also have the ability to quartersaw virtually the whole log.

The advantage of leaving the log on the ground obviates the necessity for lifting equipment with its associated extra costs and transport requirements.

I have found that accuracy is spot on for dimension and squareness.  Mt mill manufacturer claims dimensional accuracy of + or - 1mm but, with care, it's a lot better than that

Let us know your decision.

Anything else you want to know?

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

It's good to hear from you again, Ian and Ernie.

I'd be interested in knowing what you two use for log handling equipment.  It seems that that issue has raised its head here a few times now, so it's good ground to cover.

Have a great one,
Bill in NOLA

[Ianab]

Hi Bill

I use whatever I can get my hands on to move logs  :D

With a bit of luck I can just drop the tree and mill it where it lays.. but usually it's someplace awkward so,



or



Bulldozers, tractors and quad bikes have all been pushed into service at times, and as a last resort there is allways the trusty cant hook .

Cheers

Ian

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Really nice photos, Ian!

Is that a winch you're using on the front of that 4x4?  I imagine it is because that duty would be mighty tough on the drivetrain.  My 4x4  weighs almost 9000 lbs, with a Cummins Turbo Diesel, and I would't try that one.  :D

Good on ya,
Bill

[Dan_Shade]

a nice winch is always a big plus when handling logs :-)  I have a hydraulic milemarker, I like it very much, it just keeps on gettin' it.

welcome to the forum, you found a good one with lots of people willing to help!

[Tom Sawyer]

I can't say anything about any other mill, but as far as the WM's portability, I cut with an LT 40HD for 2.5 years (hope to have my own one day ;D), and I can't remember ever not being able to set up the mill at a customer's location.  WM's cantilevered head and rigid bed makes it easy to set up level on all kinds of terrain. 

I expected to hear more from the band guys on this one ;D ;D  Where are you all?  Where's Arky ??? ??? ???

[LSUNo1]

Bill in Vieux Carre, I'm Mitch in Metairie. A couple years ago I owned a manual mill from Cook Saw. Have since sold it, but I have a good friend in Crown Point with a Logmaster bandsaw mill that I am able to use anytime. If your interested I'll let you know next time we're sawing and you can come check it out first hand.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Glad to know ya, Mitch!

That's a very kind offer -- I'd be glad to see the mill operate.  Please let me know the next time you plan on cutting up some logs.

Thanks again,
Bill

[Ianab]

Really nice photos, Ian!

Is that a winch you're using on the front of that 4x4?  I imagine it is because that duty would be mighty tough on the drivetrain.  My 4x4  weighs almost 9000 lbs, with a Cummins Turbo Diesel, and I would't try that one.  :D

Good on ya,
Bill

It's not as bad as it looks, in the 4x4 picture we are dragging logs downhill to saw them on the track where the Toyota is parked. ( Thats what we call a flat spot  ) The old Toyota had a factory winch driven from the transfer box so it was fairly heavy duty, and just a matter of taking things slow and carefull.
The CAT digger is hauling some logs up out of a scrub filled hollow, it handled them with ease, but it's $100 an hour  :(

Ian

[DanG]

Holy Cow, it took a lot of typing, but I finally got a bandmiller to weigh in on this. :  Jake, I don't really want to take ya on before breakfast.  I like ta wait till 'bout lunchtime ta do my light work. ;D :D :D :D :D

Bill, what I'm really trying to do for you, is to get you to look OBJECTIVELY at all of the different types, and as many brands as you can.  You asked what I would do, and that's what I told you.  I stick by that, but you owe it to yourself to make sure you're satisfied with the decision you make.  You can't do that until you've looked at a bunch of mills.  If you haven't made a decision by mid-October, come to Moultrie and see them all.  If you have, come to Moultrie and just hang out with us. ;D ;) ;D

[NZJake]

Gidday 'B', good luck with your quest, I'm sure you'll find what you need.

Heres some of my thoughts and a few pics of some logs I milled up in the weekend.

First off what ever mill you end up with you need some kind of equipment to move um around and stock pile them, sawmill hydraulics don't answer this they just simply get the log up onto the deck.

Bandsaw's slabs need to be rehandled (even with your fully hydraulic type), this is where an edger would be handy, all money at the end of the day. Things to think about are blade costs and the wave factor.

Portabillity, heres some pics of a log that I would class as not being ideally situated. This is an automated swingblade sawmill built out of aluminium, the abillity to clip togather always has it's advantages. This situation meant that we could not walk into the milling area, we just used the board drag back to pull the timber back to us. Ended up felling three huge logs this weekend too, should get around 40 ton out of them I'll get some pics in when I start to mill them up. Gets the old heart pumping when their standing next to powerlines and a road  : though.

There are also definate advantages to a swingblade over a twinsaw. Half the hp. Wide boards in both planes. Double width boards from doublecutting. Portabillity. Microkerf blade options down to 3.5mm. Slabbing accessories. Less push force on the manual versions due to the one blade. etc. Petersons will have a new website released very soon with some real cool information and diagrams, hints and tips, bf-cubic calculators etc so keep an eye out. Should be in the next week or so.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Good on ya, Jake!  Glad to know ya, too.

Those are all great points (and nice photos to boot).  It's a bit hard to tell, but is that a Peterson ASM you're using there?  It looks like you're eatin' up some mighty sizeable logs!   If my guess was right, I'd love to hear more about the ASM.

Tada for now,
Bill   

[customsawyer]

Dang I sure don't want to have to drive to Floriduh in this heat but if you keep it up I might meet you half way. :D :D
To answer your question I saw with a WMLT40HDD42 which transalates into a LT40 super hydralic with a 42 hp Kabota.

WHERE ARE THE OTHER BAND MILL FOLKS PLEASE SEND HELP! :D

All kidding aside pick the mill that best fits your needs.

[Larry]

Customsawyer I thought you was doing pretty good job all by yourself. 

I don't have any pine and saw very little dimension lumber where I live.  Not portable and never want to be.  Got support equipment but think your gonna have some kind of support equipment with any kind of mill...unless your 100% custom sawing.

So...I think wide hardwoods are good and that takes out the swingers most quick...although wouldn't mind a bit having one of those slabbers around.

Did a little pokin around at Sawmill Exchange...looks like there might be a few good deals on MD and MM's.  Iffen I was to do it again I might have to reconsider my thoughts about "wide hardwoods are good".

[twostroke_blood]

It occured to me last night while making 2x4's out of some smaller logs that a circle type mill might not be well suited to smaller logs, like 12" dia. However it also occured to me that maybe I should own one of those swingers in addition to my band mill for the really big stuff  :D :D. It also occured to me that my wife  ;D might think it is time for some new furniture instead  :(  oh well i'll miss her when she's gone  :D :D .....only kidding

[Captain]

What is wrong with a circular in small logs?  Why just big?

Captain

[Ianab]

It occured to me last night while making 2x4's out of some smaller logs that a circle type mill might not be well suited to smaller logs, like 12" dia.

Swingblade will cut 2x4s from a 12" log as easy as any other mill. But thats just it, any mill will do that job. The swingblade just doesn't have the clear advantages that is does with logs like Jake's one above.

And heck Jake, we call that a FLAT SPOT around here :D . I've had a bit of practice blocking up the mill on firewood rounds to suit the terrain before 

Ian

[DanG]

CUSTOMSAWYER!  You callin' me out, Boy?  I'll meet ya halfway.  Meet ya in Moultrie on Oct 19, at High Noon.  I'll arm wrestle yer scrawny self right there in front of God and everybody.  Loser buys lunch at the Mennonite Buffet.  Winner gets the privilege of off-bearing for Captain for the afternoon.

There!  Now that I got that little bizness outta tha way, let me make a point that you kerf-misers probably ain't thought about.  The smaller the log, the less important the kerf width is.  Reason is, when opening a face of any specific width, the kerf is taken out of the waste side.  When edging, the kerf is taken from the waste, and you come out with the same size board, no matter how wide the kerf is.  When ya look at it this way, the smaller the log, the less  the circle mill gives up to kerf loss. 

Now before I get accused of rekindling the band vs circle wars, let me say that I'd love to have a bandmill.  There are things it will do that my MD just can't dream of.  It's just that I cut a lot of relatively low value wood, ie, dimensional framing lumber, and very little high value grade lumber.  The circular dimension saw is best suited to what I do.

[Tobacco Plug]

OK, I will weigh in on this.  In my opinion, for the quality of the machine and the fine customer service, Woodmizer is the way to go.  I have had mine for 11 years and she's still sawing along.  Now, others might tell you that such and such a mill is better or that some other mill is cheaper, but for the total package I still say Woodmizer.  You can buy one knowing absolutely nothing about sawmilling and they will teach you, answer questions, and hold your hand as get you into production.  You need parts, they get them to you quickly.  You need advice or have a doohicky that is not running right, they have a toll free number and a staff to answer questions.  And that staff is broken down by speciality, so if you are having, for instance, and electrical problem, they will put you in touch with their electrical man.
I am really surprised that Bibbyman hasn't chimed in on this topic. 8)

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Howdy, all.

Well...that's four bandees and three circees since my last post -- that's a great balance!  I'm glad to see that the bandmill folks are offering their thoughts here.  Like I wrote previously, practically every word I read here is something new to me.  I'm really looking forward to reading more from both camps. 

One thing's for certain -- everyone seems to love what they're doing!  ;D

Bill in NOLA

[DanG]

We ain't really in different camps, Bill.  We're all in the ForestryForum camp.  We would just like to see you, and any other new sawyer, make an educated decision as to what type of mill is best suited to what you want to do.  We got folks that run big ol' industrial strength circles, right down to the tiniest little homemade bandmills, and everything in between.  We all love to talk about them and answer questions about them.  That helps us to keep learning, as well, because nobody know's it all.

See ya in Moultrie!  I'll be providing the logs for the Peterson team again, and if I can scare up enough trucks and trailers, I'll bring enough for D&L and Ecosaw, too.  If ya want ta talk with me there, bring your running shoes. ;D :D :D :D  Oh yeah! I'll be arm-wrestling over in the Woodmizer tent, too.  I'm old and weak, though, so I'll probbly hafta buy lunch. :-\

;D

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Howdy, Dan.

Perhaps my use of the word "camps" wasn't the best choice.  I only meant that I want to read more from those advocating both designs.  It's become pretty clear that one type has strengths when it comes to one type of cutting, and vice versa. 

If you need help getting a trailer to the show, perhaps I could do a li'l towin' fer ya.  But that's still a ways off, so...

Hey, Mike.  Did you get my PM?  I'd love to come out and see the inauguration of your Lucas.

Have a great night,
Bill

[twostroke_blood]

I plead ignorance regarding the circle on small logs. It just seems to me that the big circle will shoot those little logs out like a torpedo, or make them wobal alittle at least. My point was  that I see an obvious advantage to using a circle mill on the really big stuff. As for the 24' and down logs, I'm sticking with my Band mill. And yeah where's Bibbyman on this???

[DanG]

Your wording was fine, Bill.  I just borrowed the word for a sec to clarify what the general attitude is here on the ForestryForum.  I've been pokin' a little fun at the bandmill set to try and draw them into this thread, and I wouldn't want any guests that come wanderin' by to get the wrong idea.

Thanks for the offer on the hauling.  Lindsay is gonna talk with the folks that run the show, to see if we can stockpile the logs in advance.  If we can, that would take a lot of pressure off of me, and I could handle both outfits.

Poor Mike is floating around somewhere in the Carribean on a cruise ship, while his mill sits idle, not even knowing what it's there for. :'(  He'll be back this weekend, but I'm afraid I'm gonna miss the christening.  My niece is getting hitched on Sat. and we'll have a bunch of outta-town relatives here all weekend.  Great timing, eh?

Twostroke,  to me, 24" is a large log.  Most of what I get are quite a bit smaller than that.  Most are in the 14"-16" range, and I regularly saw stuff as small as six and a half inches on my MD.  With the MD clamps, the log ain't going nowhere.  I can see where it could be a problem without clamping, though.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  OK, I will chime in here. I have run a 52" Circle sawmill (Corley), a Mobile Dimension, like DanG's and others, Built and operate an oversized Band Mill (Portable) and I have watched the Swingers, with GREAT interest.

  Dogging the log has to be done, except with the bigger ones on notched bunks, with the Swingers.

  I have sawn 6" logs (posts), on the big Circle mill. No problem, IF ya do things right. I have sawn 40" logs on the big Circle mill, slow and hazardous.

  Same with the bandmill, takes a LOT of time with the loading and turning.

  The MD's take some running around dogging and moving logs and slabs. They ALL make good boards.

  You have to figure out where the best use of the lumber will be for you, AND, if ya wanna go sawing for the public.

  Our scenario involves big logs, up to 40" right now, out of the river. We are going looking for some 10 FOOT + diameter logs this week. We've heard rumors  : : :

  Now, We have the bandmill, but, it won't do it all. We WANT a Swinger, because it will saw sappy wood (SYP ) better, among others, AND, we can also use the slabber to cut them fine wide table slabs. The slabber will do up to 50" wide slabs.

  That will give us a well balanced operation. No moving of big logs with the Swinger, smaller stuff with the Bandmill, and specialty cuts with either mill.

  I am moving to Costa Rica, soon. There, I will be sawing Teak. It is abrasive, so, Carbide teeth will help a lot. That means a Swinger. Also, the Teak logs will be from 6" to , maybe, 20" in dia. Small logs will mean slow production. Swinger will still handle that. BIG logs, in remote jungle locations, Swinger, hands down. BIG table slabs from gorgeous tropical Hardwood logs, Swinger hands down.  The bandmill WILL saw the Teak, sooo, I MIGHT take the bandmill with me, OR build one down there.

  An MD would be a good choice for CR, but, the wide boards will not happen. There IS a market, I am told, for beams. Does that mean I also need an MD ???  They are not real portable, because of the length and the sharp rise and fall of the mountain roads (offroad), but, the MD's are great mills.

  My situation is definitely different that anyone here, so, this should show you how you must figure what you will be doing, and allow for changes in the future.

  I purposely left out the debate over kerf. Sometimes, that doesn't matter all that much ???

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Thanks very much, Twostroke, Dan & Deadheader! 

Twostroke: I definitely see where you're comin' from with your thoughts on the small logs.  I can see myself cutting up some smallish logs at times as well -- small pines mostly -- so your thoughts about doggin' em in are valid ones.

Dan: I'd like to know more about those Mobile Dimension clamps you mentioned.  From what I've been reading, it seems that they have a really good dogging system.  I'm sorry to read that Mike is out of town.  I'm preparing for a business trip and was hoping to stop by to see his new mill [maybe even see it perform its maiden cut].  I'm also glad to read that you saw [no pun intended] where I was coming from on my last post. ;D

Deadheader: First, I have to say that I'm happy to be correspondin' with another resident of F-L-A.  I'm a native of the state and my family home is on the Withlacoochee, near Brooksville.  In addition, I lived in Melbourne for years and, consequently, bought my shootin' supplies from a fella in Sebastian.  You wrote a lot in your last post, so I'll reply to some of your points below...

Right off, it seems that you've got a lot of cutting scenarios covered.  I'm envious, because that seems like the ideal situation to be in.  You have some good points about my uses of the mill and, yes, I definitely have the possibility of "sawing for dollars" in mind as I do my research.

I'm gathering that you'll be hunting for sinkers soon?  10 feet?  That's incredible!   That not only gets my desire to cut goin,' but it intrigues me as a diver as well.  Do you dive?

I also loved reading about the teak you'll be cutting in the future.  My brothers a big time boater out of Jupiter, so I know there's a market for that type of wood in his neck of the woods.  I also know it makes some fantastic custom outdoor furniture.

Your thoughts on the swingers are well taken as well.  Heck, if you get one of those...you'll have the spectrum just about covered! Good luck to you.

And, as always, thanks to all for the great posts.  I'm learning more and more all the time.  Please keep it coming...

Bill in NOLA

[Fla._Deadheader]

"B", check our website. Click on my user name and follow the link at the bottom of the page.  ;)

[DanG]

Bill, if you trip is taking you anywhere near Mike's place, you'll be close to me, also.  When will you be in this area?

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Wow, Deadheader!   

What a coincidence!  I only used the term "sinker" because they have a bunch of 'em here in the swamps of weezy.  But the rivers seem like a much preferred scenario for retrieving those big boys.

How do you do your exploration?  Do you have divers working for you?  As I mentioned before, I've got my share of diving under my belt. 

I'd also really like to know how you raise those suckers?  I've helped some folks retrieve expensive I-beams from lakes up north -- lost from structures during the winter freezes -- so that's very interesting to me. 

When I was living on the west coast of FLA, we used to current dive for miles along the Weeki Wachee and I vividly recall seeing plenty o' logs down there.  What a great idea...I LOVE IT!

Bill in NOLA   

[Fla._Deadheader]

My son and I are the divers, boat captains, salvors, loggers, sawyers, marketers, and BROKE.  ;D :D :D :D

  All the info you need is on that website.  ;) ;)  Wanna job ???  ;D ;D

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Dan,

There's a little bit of flexibility in my schedule, so I was hoping to incorporate some "pleasure" into my trip (ie, watching some saws cut).  However, I realize you've got something special going on this coming weekend, so I kinda ruled imposin' on you out :D

Anyway, the answer to your question is that I'm thinking about heading out this Friday.  But, as I wrote, that could all change a bit if something good came about...

Bill

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Sorry, Deadhead.  I didn't see the menu options on the upper left of the link. 

I've got more JOB than I can handle at the moment.  Why do you think I'm buying a mill? :D  Seriously, though, I'd love to see that recovery operation.  I think that's a fantastic idea.

By the way, last April. I helped clear a "drift dam" behind my family home on the Withlacoochee, so your reference to BLACK WATER is something I'm very familiar with. 

Bill...near the black waters of Weezy Anna

[DanG]

Pencil me back into your itinerary, Bill.  That wedding ain't till 6:30 pm on Sat.  I'm sure I can work in a little demo that morning or Fri. evening.

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

I'll PM you, Dan, as soon as I can clear my desk a bit more.  I've got my PC set up to warn me when I receive a reply, so I'm trying to respond to each of my gracious posters as soon as possible.  I'm also a pretty quick typist, so that helps too...

Bill in NOLA 

[red]

hi bill

well you started quite a thread here   .....

dan g  wow you built quite a big machine topped with a cummings! ! !

and customsawyer / tobacco plug   thanks for defending woodmizer


every machine has its  good and bad points

and i think we all agree  if we came across   good deal  we just might buy the other machine   or shall we say plan B 

the farm I help out at  has had a few sawmills

the LT40 hd with kubota diesel  was  a great machine

but the LT70  we just got  is awesome! ! !

the 70 eats everything we can throw at it

but the logs i like best is the 14"to 20"   less time consuming

anyhow  i just had to say something  for the orange machines

stay cool ...

[twostroke_blood]

Ok let me approach it from this angle. When sawing small logs on my bandmill, I dont have to bend over as far to pick up the boards yuk yuk yuk ;D  8)

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Hi, Red and Twostroke.

Yes, Red, this has been a great thread where lots of good information has been disseminated to the board.  I hope that others in a similar situation have been reading this thread as intently as I have.   

Once again, I think it's great that there are so many supporters for both basic designs...please keep it coming.

Bill

[DanG]

Bill, we been keepin' it comin' for several years now. :D :D  There are many, many pages of just this sort of stuff.  Just start paging back through the forum and you'll see what I mean.  I don't mean to abandon this thread, though.  We have lots of guests and potential members drifting through, and they usually only look at the current page.  We can keep this one going as long as anybody is interested enough to add to it. ;D

Thanks, JeffB! 8) 8) 8)  This just points up what a great thing you have done for us here on THE ForestryForum! 8) 8) 8)

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Hey, Dan.

Take a look at your email.  I hope you see one there from me.

B in the BE