Will my Nyle freeze

Sawyerfortyish · September 17, 2005, 08:45:03 PM

Just setting up my nyle L200 and read that the controller should not be inside the kiln chamber. Thats a no brainer but just under that it also says that the controller should be kept from freezing. Does that mean keep from freezing while in use or keep from freezing all togeather. My kiln is being set up in a pole barn with no heat. Do I have to disconect the controller when not in use and bring it inside in the winter?

Don_Lewis · September 17, 2005, 10:57:34 PM

I t should be kept above freezing. Build a small enclosure and put a light bulb in it. Turn it on in cold weather

caryr · September 18, 2005, 02:05:43 AM

Don,

What in the controller doesn't like to be frozen? It's just some electronics right. I understand that you are probably not buying extended range parts so they may not work correctly if you try to operate them much below freezing, but most everything should be able to be stored well below freezing.

Cary

beenthere · September 18, 2005, 08:37:56 AM

More likely its the condensation that can occur when above and below freezing happens. But just a guess on my part.

caryr · September 18, 2005, 11:12:30 AM

You may be right, but since condensation is controlled by dew point it can also happen well above freezing. Our worst day for condensation last winter was over 50F. Of course we had almost 100% RH outside. If it is condensation that Don is worried about then why the reference to freezing? For the record I put a small heat source in almost anything electronic that sits outside to help prevent condensation, but I only worry about things that have water/fluids in them when it comes to freezing. For me, the right resistor works much better than a light bulb as a small heat sources.

Cary

Don_Lewis · September 18, 2005, 01:00:21 PM

I didn't answer fully before. It can be subjected to freezing when not in use. In use, we sometimes have problems when it gets below freezing. I don't think it is condensation as much as thermal expansion and contraction problems. Condensation would be a problem above and below freezing, if that were it. Also, it isn't universal. There are a lot of people who never have a problem and don't keep it warm. So take a chance, if you like. It may be fine. It won't be permantently damaged but you may lose your settings.

caryr · September 18, 2005, 02:29:42 PM

Don,

I would bet it has more to do with the temperature coefficients of the electronic parts in the controller than thermal expansion/contraction. Integrated circuits (semiconductors) can be designed to work at very cold temperatures, but many can start to have operational problems (non functionality or large shifts in their characteristics) below freezing since most of them are designed for the 0-70 C range. The passive components (resistors, capacitors, etc.) are usually not a problem unless their TC has been ignored.

From your description of the problem I would guess one of the ICs is struggling and below 0 C the part to part variation is causing some to work and others not to.

Cary

Den Socling · September 19, 2005, 07:29:20 AM

I bet caryr is right about TC's but I wonder what control system we are talking about. I've seen all kins of stuff on Nyle's. But why not just leave the control system on. We never turn controllers off and even solid state devices generate some heat.

caryr · September 19, 2005, 12:04:48 PM

Den,

Relying on the controller to keep things warm in a well insulated enclosure works well as long as you remember to remove/open the enclosure on warmer days. If I lived in a colder area and was trying to keep things warm I would use a moderately insulated enclosure and then use a thermostat designed to control electric baseboard heaters to turn the light bulb/resistor (aux. heater) on as needed. I have seen ones that go down to about 40F which would be perfect.

Here are a couple other things to keep in mind if your controller is going to be setup where it could get cold. An extended power outage will allow the controller to drop to the ambient temperature. Some parts can stay stuck in their bad state as they warm up, so they need to have their power cycled once they are warm.

Cary

Den Socling · September 19, 2005, 03:39:54 PM

Cary,

Looking at the other end of the spectrum, a closed cabinet on a warm day, you wouldn't believe the heat solid state can take. Folks, don't try this at home. I often see contollers mounted in the same room as steam control valves which means the same room as steam lines. In the summer, this stuff gets real hot. I've seen IC's so hot you don't want to touch them and they will survive for years. I shudder when I see this but the point is solid state devices won't overheat on a warm day with the enclosure closed. Unless maybe in the direct sun in the south west. Of course, drift can affect accuracy without shutting anything down. IMO

Den

caryr · September 19, 2005, 07:03:56 PM

Quote from: Den Socling on September 19, 2005, 03:39:54 PM
... you wouldn't believe the heat solid state can take. ...

You would be surprised what I would believe ;D. The fact of the matter is most parts are designed to operate in an environment up to at least 160F (70C). Are the parts going to get to this temperature in an enclosed box? It depends on how much power is being dissipated in the box, the insulation characteristics of the box and how hot it is outside. In many places it is probably not a concern, but people should think about this a bit before blindly proceeding.

The conclusion to all this, if we skip all the technical talk, is the best thing to do is treat the controller like you would like to be treated. Give it a coat and possibly some extra heat in the winter and some shade and good air flow in the summer.

Cary