Anyone experiment with alternative energy?

[theonlybull]

nice bird there tox,   after pickin that baby up,  alterntive energy probably sounds cheap.... 75L\hour makes them a lil' expensive to run,  but they sure are a nice workin machine.  lil' more room then my old man's rotor way exec though   :D  although,  his 500 hour maybe a lil' more affordable

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Here ya go, Dail

  Bergey

[toxedo_2000]

nice bird there tox,   after pickin that baby up,  alterntive energy probably sounds cheap.... 75L\hour makes them a lil' expensive to run,....../

Well, you're right. That why I need alternative energy a lot. All that I can save on this side is spread on the other side. :-\ But who am I to complaint ? I am the luckyiest man of the world; I saw, and I flye !  smiley_angel02_wings
Tox

[toxedo_2000]

I everybody
Long time ago I came here. Well, I just want to tell you that I have installed a new device for hot water at my cabin. It is a propane system that warm water on demand only. I had to replace my hot water propane tank anyway, so I bought that thing. Working very well. And the water is very hot. It is made by Bosh.
I'll take picture next time.
Toxedo

[getoverit]

It has been almost a year since anyone posted on this thread and I thought it was time to review it.

I am looking at the options for making my workshop a total alternative energy shop, and have been looking into PV panels and also a way to air condition my shop using geothermal and solar. I found THIS SITE for free soalr air conditioning and have been looking at it closely. As far as I can tell, I cant see where anybody has actually used this method of air conditioning, but that doesnt mean it doesnt work. I have been in communication with the authors of the site to get more detailed information.  I dont know of an inexpensive suplier of thin walled 4" PVC pipe or the fittings, but I am looking at government liquidations and other similar sites for it.

A sideline of this method is to use 1" polyethelene pipe, filled with water and circulated through a car radiator with a 12 volt fan attached. According to all of the data I can garner, the ground temperature ( 6 feet below ground level) in my location remains at ~70 degrees year round. Using this constant suply of 70 degree water should provide both heating and cooling. Of course the cooling is more important to me than the heating. Has anyone tried this method?

My next question is if anyone knows of a good source for low cost or used solar panels?

[limbrat]

I had thought of a simular air flow system a few years ago, made some drawings and played with it for about a week. Then let it go over concerns about condensation insde the tubing under ground.
The closed loop water system is very simular to what a geothermal heat pump uses. You might get some more ideals from florida heat pump. If you have a deep pond, water is very efficent and cost effective because you dont need to bore wells are excavate for a couple of hundred ft of pipe. Just trench to the pond weight a couple of rolls of tubing cut the bands and sink them in the deepest part of the pond.
Im almost as bad as Ignastus j Reily on writing down ideals. Most I let go, some i keep and one paid a little. I have been thinking about a low volume gradient solar pond with a closed loop heat exchanger for a while now.
The ground dont rise much here and there aint a steady breeze so i havent looked at wind or hydro. But i did heat a 1200 ft green house one winter with 200 ft. of tubing a 12volt water pump 2 radiators 4 12volt fans and a 10x 40 compost bed. I wont never do it again turning that big a bed by hand sucks.

[Don P]

We had one client use the geothermal heatpump with lines buried around the place 6' deep feeding the heat pump constant temperature water year round. In AL the inlaws used the canal out back for the same purpose. Both systems worked well.

We had a big bust here this past week. Seems one of the local guys had a lab and was cooking up... biodiesel. He was selling his extra to friends. Some DMV employee with time on his hands initiated a 6 week undercover surveilance operation complete with video cameras and the whole deal.  They went out last week and busted the shocked and unknowing guy, investigation is continuing with possibly more charges against his co-conspirators to follow. The "cleanup" of the "hazerdous waste" ran over $5,000. They want their road tax  :

[getoverit]

The system I am looking at doesnt use a heat pump at all, but rather runs the water through a radiator and then a fan is blown through the radiator to exchange the heat. It may need to run around the clock to work, but since it will be solar powered anyway, it doesnt make any difference ;)

A dehumidifier may need to be run in order to dehumidify the air in the house, but that is still cheaper than running a 4 ton A/C

[limbrat]

Yes, i understand what you have in mind, I did something simular to heat a green house once.
I am not saying that you should use a heat pump. I am saying that geothermal heat pumps use a simular system to dump and collect heat. By researching them you may be able to find what materials to best use and how much of it you will need.

[Modat22]

Going by requirements of geothermal installations we've done for schools 100 feet of well with pipe in it is required for each ton of cooling/heating. If you don't have enough well then the ground will equalize in temperature and it won't cool or heat well.

The newer systems we've done are water source geothermal, where two wells are dug. one is a supply for ground temp water and the other is the return. These seem to be the most energy efficient.

[getoverit]

what did you use for the heat exchanger? and how far apart do you suggest the wells be in order to provide 4 tons of cooling?

I had really envisioned utting down a closed loop system because of the high mineral content of the ground water here. With a closed loo system, I have been looking at burying about 1000 ft of 1" polyethelene tubing, in a coil manner, over about  a 200 foot long ditch dug at least 6 feet down and then covered with the dirt. It should be able to treat the water in the loop much like you would treat swimming pool water to keep down mineralization in the heat exchanger. I could see the benefit of actually burying this deep enough so that the tubing would be sitting in ground water. That may be a little diffficult to do here because I live on a sand hill and the ground water is quite deep.

What I havent been able to find information on is what size heat exchanger I would need, and if one heat exchanger would be enough to suply 4 tons of cooling?

[submarinesailor]

Ken,

The world's largest energy conference, World Energy Engineering Conference, is currently is secession at the DC Convention center and I have tickets to the expo floor.  I know from shows in the past, the Geoexchange people always have a large booth.  Will try too pick up some info for you.  In the mean time check out their site. http://www.geoexchange.org/

Also of note is that in the new energy bill you can receive a $300 tax credit for installing a geothermal system:  "Sec. 1333: Credit for certain non-business energy property
One of the highlights of the new bill addresses homeowners, who are granted up to $300 in tax credits for the cost of new Geoexchange systems. To be eligible, the standards that must be met are 14.1 EER & 3.3 COP for closed loop, 16.2 EER and 3.6 COP for open loop and 15 EER and 3.5 COP for DX. However, the system must include a desuperheater or integrated water heating to meet the credit's criteria."

I checked on states that have some type of rebate and Florida is one of them.  Gulf Power Company (GPC) offers a $250 per unit incentive for geothermal heat pumps installed in multi-family homes.  Note, it states "mult-family" homes.

Will PM you tomorrow night if I get anything good for you.

Bruce

[getoverit]

Thanks Bruce!

I am particularly interested in systems that dont use a heat pump at all, but are straight geothermal with only a heat exchanger (radiator)

[highpockets]

Getoverit,

I haven't read all of the comments in this thread, but in 1980 I looked at running lines to my pond some 100 yards from the house.  I was more interested in getting a better heat exchange for an air conditioner.  The thought was also since the pond had a temp of 61 degrees (from a flowing spring) I could possibly do a straight exchange like a radiator.  I grew up in the refrigeration business but it has been a long time.  I think that poly pipe is not going to give you very good conductance for heat exchange if you bury it. Also if you use radiators it is probably going to take so much fan h.p. (i.e lots of square ft in radiators) that you may not accomplish much. 

I may get some arguments here, but as best as I can remember one needs a 10 to 15 degree difference in discharge to return temperatures.  Check you 4 ton unit and see what you have now. I'll almost bet you see somehwere in this area.   

For some 30 years I have been kicking around a way to cool my house cheaper.  The old Alkla Gas units from Arkla Gas in Shreveport were a big hit around here when natural gas was cheaper.  They required more maintenence but many used them. My friend has his own small gas well and has had one for 20 years.  Parhaps you might want to look at something running on old motor oil, cooking oil, etc.  Who knows what one can do?


 

[wiam]

The guy that I bought my Central Boiler outdoor boiler claims to have all the necessary parts to cool his walk in cooler using boiler temp water.  If this can work why not whole house air conditioning?

Will

[Modat22]

on many jobs we've done the wells are anywhere from 15' to 20' on center usually 100 to 300 feet deep.

We usually get a soil test and a test well done first to verify well spacing. Thats on the closed loop systems which are filled with a propolene glycol water mix. We have to use a heat pump to chill the water further so the cooling coil can remove some of the humidity.

[submarinesailor]

Ken,

I'm forcing the time to set down and put down some of the geothermal info I found at the energy show.

First the show was a bust!  There was only one true geothermal outfit there and that was the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium. While talking with them I came away with the opinion that they think it's a bad idea to try and use a straight system without a heat pump – look at their name.  Soooo, after I got back to the house, god I hate DC traffic.  I called several mechanical and energy engineers I worked for and with over the last 13 years and they all said the same thing.  It will be real hard to get the energy concentration you need, for both cooling and heating.  Remember how the OLD heat pumps always felt like they were blowing cool/cold air during the heating cycle.  That's because you couldn't get the energy concentration you need without SOMETHING like a heat pump.  One of the big cooling points we talked about was that you would need to cool the air down to about 45° to get the dehumidification needed.  Without this you could feel clammy all the time.  As to running a DH system, with the new refrigerant compressors, I don't think you could run a DH system as cheaply as a geothermal system.  Desiccant systems usually require electric heaters and a small blower to dry the off side and refrigerant systems are usually air to air systems.  Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of doing it without a heat pump – less money to pay the @$%^&*s at the power company.  But I don't think you can easily get a good system. Oh, before I forget, one item that jumped into my head while writing this; the new energy policy act requires a "desuperheater" on the system to qualify for any tax credits.  You can only have them on refrigeration compressor systems.  I don't think it's a heat pump thing.  I think it's an energy thing.  They have really help raise the efficiency of compressor systems.

The next item we beat up, around and about, I actually have some experience on this, is the loops. 
1.   The best bar none are the drilled wells – can you said "expensive to put in."  You must drill the right depth hole and the right number with the correct spacing.  Back when I worked for an AC&R controls company, we were the general on a geothermal system for the crash and rescue building on the Quantico flight line.  We installed a 7 ton system that required 11 - 350 ft holes.  One cost not counted on, was the fact that the flight line was on fill and the holes keep collapsing as they pulled the bit.  So, we had to Bentonite (sp) the holes to keep them open until the loops could be installed.  Please remember this was 13 years ago and systems have gotten MUCH better and you may not as many holes for the same sized system.  Example; the lower elbows are much heavier built – don't use regular PVC fitting on the bottom connections.  They will blow out.
2.   If, no when I put a system in.  I will probably do like you and install a horizontal system with many loops.  For what I can gather the biggest thing on them is to make sure you use fine dirt and pack it well.  As the loops heat and cool, particularly during cooling, the loops will condense moisture around them and over time this could loosen the contact between the tubing and the dirt.  No contact, no energy transfer.

With a little bit of googling, I found a link to a company that sale to individuals – self installation kits. Check out Architectural Residential Technologies, Inc. (ART) http://www.arit.com.  Their design and spec catalog can be downloaded at http://www.arit.com/PDF/Design%20and%20Specifications%20Catalog%20for%20Terraloop.pdf. In their guide, they have illustrations for the 4 types of horizontal loops: pond loops, slinky loops, horizontal single or multi pipe loops and horizontal radiator loops.

Well that's all I can think of right now.  If I think of more, I get it to you.  Also, if you have any questions or comments, PLEASE let me know.  I may be in natural gas now, but I still have friends in the energy business – god would I love to get back to real energy projects.  Getting fat and old behind this disk.

Bruce

[Gustavo]

you can visit this pages

in brasil the most of  the  cereal driers use   firewood

there are a good press   to make "brikets " from saw dust

you can visit 

www.biomasa.com.br
and  www.hengenharia.com.br

this briquet is produced compacting   in an alternative press
the briquet is a long cilinder   
the saw dust must be dry   less than 8 percent
and it dont want any kind of glue

i saw this   with    rice husk too

the production is nearly  800 kilos by hour

[getoverit]

Thanks for the GREAT info Bruce !

[OneWithWood]

Here are some pics of the bio-diesel processor I constructed to make bio-diesel from wast donut oil.



left to right:
the waste oil drum(partially blocked by radial arm saw), carboy stack for adding methoxide, the appleseed processor, tank for letting mix settle separating the bio-d from glycerol, tank for washing suspended soap and residual methanol from bio-d, tank to drive off remaining water from bio-d.  The overhead PVC trunk line exhausts all the fumes to the outside.  Eventually I will incorporate a column to recover methanol.

view from the leftt


view from the right


My raw materials cost are roughly .80 a gallon for finished fuel.

[beenthere]

OWW
That looks might impressive. Neat line-up of processes, and curious as to how many gallons you can process in a given time, say 24 hrs.

[Fla._Deadheader]

   8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[OneWithWood]

I can process 120 liters (approx 31.5 gal) per batch.  The initial processing takes about 2.5 hours.  Once fully mixed it is pumped to the settling tank where it sits for 24+hrs.  The bio-d is then pumped to the wash tank and the glycerol drained to be held for further processing (recovery of methanol and a potassium fertilyzer).  The batch undergoes a series of washes that combined take about two days.  After each wash the soapy water is drained off and put on the compost pile.  The last step is heating in the drying drum for at least 24 hrs.  I run two batches at a time - one being mixed and settled while the other one washes.  I can produce about 55 gal per week with this set up.  All the washes are activated utilizing timers so I only need to be present during mixing, pumping and draining.  All in all I devote about 6 hours per week to the process.
The first two batches took like forever :D

[Norm]

That looks very impressive Robert but I have one question what with all the projects you tackle....when do you sleep. ;)

[Furby]

Basicly you are paying yourself around $16.50 an hour to make the stuff rather then by it at the pump, right?