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Author Topic: Engine Trouble  (Read 8223 times)

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Offline Radar67

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2005, 11:14:01 AM »
Radar,
I don't mean to be a pest but that doesn't sound right. I am not a specialist but have been working on and building engines for 45 years and I am concerned. Now having said that, I have had a 20 H.P. Honda on a mill that has eaten on me lately.

If you are getting gas into the overhead covers and it is being sucked in from the carb, I'd think filter restriction of some sort.  What about crankcase ventilation?
 

This is my theory, someone correct me if I'm wrong, please!!!   ;D

My tank sits above as well, it is fitted with a fuel cut off switch. During normal operation, the fuel should be gravity fed into the carb bowl, allowing the seat to deliver fuel to the carb. Air intake from the filter (which is created by vacum from the piston) delivers gas to the intake valve, which is sucked into the cylinder on the downstroke of the piston (while the intake valve is open). On the up stroke, the fuel air mix is compressed and the plug fires, creating the combustion. The piston travels down, then on upstroke, the exhaust valve opens allowing the excess out. (on a four stroke, the piston makes 4 revolutions to get one firing cycle)

What I think is going on with my engine is when the intake valve opens, it is not opening far enough because the clearance is off (over .010, the specs call for .005). The gas that does not make it into the cylinder is traveling back up the valve guide to the rocker arm area. The breather tube connecting the valve cover to the air filter is sucking that excess back into the air filter (visually verified) and the carb. There is enough fuel getting into the cylinder to combust on firing, but it is not enough to generate the power needed to operate at prescribed RPM. The breather tube is picking up enough of the fuel to keep it from draining into the crankcase. That's what I think is going on. I'll have to wait for my rocker arm bolt to come in before I can test my theory. If the clearance is the problem, once the bolt is replaced and the clearances adjusted to specs, the engine should run normal, if not, I will have to rethink things.

The only crankcase ventilation I find is the breather tube from the valve cover back to the air filter plate.

I'm basing my theory on what I know about how V-8 Chevy and Ford engines work. Small engines are new to me and I have done only a small amount of research on them.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Offline GF

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2005, 11:30:11 AM »
FYI
   I purchased and engine from this site in the past and was very pleased, sometime their special section has some pretty good prices.  http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/

Offline D._Frederick

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2005, 11:36:27 AM »
Radar,

I don't think that your valve clearance being 0.005 inches out of spec is causing your problem. You may have a leaking head gasket, I would check the engines compression and see what it is.

I hate to tell you your engine theory is off, a 4 cycle engine makes 2 revolutions not 4.

You said that your engine has a lot of vibration, could you have an ignition problem that is causing the engine to miss? If it isn't this, you may have something broken in the crankcase.

Offline Radar67

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2005, 12:55:29 PM »
Radar,

I hate to tell you your engine theory is off, a 4 cycle engine makes 2 revolutions not 4.

could you have an ignition problem that is causing the engine to miss? If it isn't this, you may have something broken in the crankcase.

Thanks for correcting me, I was adding the two upstrokes and downstrokes to come up with the four.

Could I have an ignition problem? yes, the fuel flowing back into the air filter is re-entering the carb and causing the plug to foul. ( dry black, sooty residue) As for the valve clearance, I know .005 over is not a lot, but the specs call for .005, that makes the the valve not open enough (almost none at all) to intake all the fuel/air the engine is needing. If you have a valve stick closed in a one cylinder engine, the engine won't crank.

I would think I would hear some type of knocking or other odd sound if something in the crankcase was broken. At least that is the case when something internal breaks on a big engine.  ;D If the valve clearance doesn't solve the problem, I will check the engine compression, although it is cranking on first pull.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Offline Paul_H

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2005, 01:33:52 PM »
the fuel flowing back into the air filter is re-entering the carb and causing the plug to foul. ( dry black, sooty residue)
Stew


The 20 hp Honda on my resaw started over fuelling due to a haywire needle and seat in the carb.I have the tank suspended over the engine and run gravity and it filled the crankcase with gas because I didn't shut the fuel off at night .I drained and changed the oil but the engine still wouldn't run right because the needle and seat was allowing too much gas into the engine and it ran rich,which sooted up the plugs.

I'm sorry if I missed it in your posts but what have you done to rule out the needle and seat causing your problems?
eg  tregar  meste  p  Tulla, for  ho  var  krulla  i  ulla.

Offline leweee

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2005, 01:51:31 PM »

The 20 hp Honda on my resaw started over fuelling due to a haywire needle and seat in the carb.I have the tank suspended over the engine and run gravity and it filled the crankcase with gas because I didn't shut the fuel off at night .I drained and changed the oil but the engine still wouldn't run right because the needle and seat was allowing too much gas into the engine and it ran rich,which sooted up the plugs.


Same thing happened to my Honda 20 hp motor. Seems the bean counters at
Keien carbs decided that a brass seat was not needed....they use the carb casting as the seat smiley_dunce smiley_dunce smiley_dizzy....to make a long story short I lapped the seat area and it worked again
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

Offline Radar67

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2005, 02:03:19 PM »

I'm sorry if I missed it in your posts but what have you done to rule out the needle and seat causing your problems?

I took the float bowl off and removed the float and needle. Then, I sprayed carb clearner through any hole I could find. I also made sure the float did not have gas in it. The float bowl was clean as a whistle when I removed it, no sign of trash or gumming. I have left the fuel valve on a couple of times, but did not notice a rise in my oil level. My engine's oil level is fill to overflowing. No spillage when I take the cover off to check oil before running.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2005, 02:07:21 PM »

 How did you check the float level ???

   That is one of the most precise things about an engine.  Also, the .005-.010 clearance on the valve is not that great a deal. That is the clearance between the tappet and valve stem, so when the engine heats up, the valve doesn't swell enough to eliminate all clearance and burn the valve head-seat. I wouldn't worry too much about that clearance. Still sounds like a carb problem to me.
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Offline Radar67

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2005, 02:17:55 PM »
How did you check the float level ???

The float is plastic. I looked at the amount of fuel in the float bowl and checked to make sure the float wasn't stuck by pushing on it and making sure it lifted up and down smoothly. There wasn't any type of adjustment that I saw. Some of the older floats where made of metal and had a metal bar you could bend. I could only estimate the float's level by the amount of gas in the bowl (about 2/3 full) The float should "float" level in the bowl, is that correct? What is the correct way to check the float level?

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2005, 02:26:30 PM »

 These newer engines are getting beyond my knowledge. If the float is hung on a pin so it swings up and down, and is attached to the top of the carb, you hold the top of the carb upside down and eyeball the level of the float against the level of the carb top. It should be just a hair higher than level with the carb top. That way, it gets to slowly adjust itself as the engine wears out along with the needle.  There almost HAS to be a way to adjust it  ??? ???

  If it's not made like I have described, ignore my input, as most here already do.  ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D  Good Luck  ;) ;D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
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-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Offline Radar67

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2005, 02:41:44 PM »
If the float is hung on a pin so it swings up and down, and is attached to the top of the carb, you hold the top of the carb upside down and eyeball the level of the float against the level of the carb top. It should be just a hair higher than level with the carb top. That way, it gets to slowly adjust itself as the engine wears out along with the needle.  There almost HAS to be a way to adjust it  ???

Okay, I have not removed the carb, that is something I can do while waiting on my bolt. The float does hang by a plastic bracket that comes from the carb body and a steel pin goes through the bracket and the float. I'll have to study a little harder on the float to see if I can find an adjustment. Who knows, they may have it designed where the length of the needle regulated the float.  :-\

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Offline Paul_H

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2005, 02:52:40 PM »
Same thing happened to my Honda 20 hp motor. Seems the bean counters at
Keien carbs decided that a brass seat was not needed....they use the carb casting as the seat smiley_dunce smiley_dunce smiley_dizzy....to make a long story short I lapped the seat area and it worked again

I think you will either have to replace the needle and seat or do what Lewee did and I'll bet the problem goes away.
eg  tregar  meste  p  Tulla, for  ho  var  krulla  i  ulla.

Offline Radar67

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2005, 05:40:20 PM »
I hate to say it, but we were all wrong. Turns out, the exhaust lobe on the cam shaft was worn off, and I mean really worn. And the tappet/lifter was cupped. I've ordered the parts to repair it. Thanks for all your help.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2005, 07:07:12 PM »

 That sure is discouraging news ???  How many hours, approximately on that engine ???
All truth passes through three stages:
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Offline Radar67

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2005, 07:21:10 PM »
My best estimate on hours is 50. I purchased the saw used. The original owner said he only cut 2 or 3 cherry logs, but I don't know that for sure. As for me, I've cut about 500 BF with it.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2005, 07:24:51 PM »

 Man, and the cam lobe is worn off ???   NOT GOOD.  ::) ::) ::) ??? ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Offline Minnesota_boy

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2005, 09:06:53 PM »
Make some phone calls.  Let the manufacturer know what happened.  That cam didn't get the proper heat treatment.  That happens and it usually gets replaced under warranty.  With calls to the right place that may happen for you too.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Offline Fla._Deadheader

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2005, 10:58:06 PM »

 I agree. That's some BAD publicity, especially on the number one Forum on the 'net.  ::) ::) ;) :) :)
All truth passes through three stages:
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   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Offline Radar67

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Re: Engine Trouble
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2005, 10:39:35 PM »
I wanted to pass on my experience with customer service for http://www.m-and-d.com/

Due to Briggs and Stratton being closed for the holiday season, I had to find other means to get the parts to repair my saw. I'm in the middle of my first paying job.  ::)

Wednesday evening I went to M and D Mower's website and found the parts I needed and ordered them (about 4:00 pm) They had closed for the day. First thing Thursday morning, I called customer service to verify their shipping method. I have different addresses for US Postal and the delivery services. They told me my order would ship via UPS, FedEx, or DHL. I made sure they had the correct address to ship to. I made no mention that I needed the parts ASAP.

I was expecting the parts to arrive Monday or Tuesday due to the holidays and the parts coming from Ohio. Much to my surprise, the parts were delivered today (Friday) before noon via Airborne Express. Needless to say, I was very impressed.  ;D And what did shipping cost me you ask???? A mere $6.95 for STANDARD SHIPPING. I will direct all my business to this company in the future.

Thanks for all the help everyone gave me. I should be back in business tomorrow evening after work.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J


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