The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service

Dynamic Green Products Inc.





Author Topic: Log Pricing  (Read 4385 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fstedy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 737
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Galloway, NJ
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Log Pricing
« on: January 15, 2006, 02:26:23 PM »
I have an opportunity to purchase some nice Red Oak logs from a local firewood processor. He gets some larger logs at times and they are harder for him to process and he offered them to me. They are getting about $175 a cord of split and delivered firewood, would .20 or.25 cents a board foot be a fair price seeing he won't have to process or deliver the wood. I want to be fair to both of us. I looked at the conversions and they are confusing with this conversion. Is 83 cubic ft. of split and stacked firewood to 1000 bd. ft. a good ratio. Thanks for the help.
Timberking B-20   Retired and enjoying every minute of it.
Former occupations Electrical Lineman, Airline Pilot, Owner operator of Machine Shop, Slot Machine Technician and Sawmill Operator.
I know its a long story!!!

Offline extrapolate85

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
    • Roundwood Measurement
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2006, 04:20:06 PM »
I think 83 CF per cord (not mbf) is a pretty good average for unsplit wood, but I would guess it to be a fair amount lower for split wood - maybe more like 75 CF; depending on the quality of stacking, bark thickness, and the roughness of the wood. As for a conversion to 1,000 BF, it depends on what you are talking about; a thousand BF of log scale (International 1/4", Scribner, Doyle?) or a thousand BF lumber tally (lumber tally and International 1/4" will be close to the same). Assuming International 1/4" log scale (which should be close to finished lumber tally), an average small end diameter, inside bark of 16"; there will be about 150 CF (Doyle will give about 180 CF) of solid wood per mbf log scale. In simple terms, if you multiply his cord price by two (150 CF per mbf divided by 75 CF per cord), you would get an equivalent price of $350/MBF International 1/4" log scale (and the firewooder saves the labour and costs of splitting the wood).

Offline Ironwood

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4552
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Near Pittsburgh,Pa
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
    • http://www.branchandburl.com
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2006, 06:56:07 PM »
I would say that is a fair price especially if he is hauling/ handling them. Expect some metal that's for sure. Gotta educate the guys on your risks with urban stuff, time, blades ect.......

                 Reid
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Offline Black_Bear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 300
  • Age: 49
  • Location: VT, NH
  • Gender: Male
  • UMaine Black Bears
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2006, 08:01:54 PM »
1000 X 1ft X 1 ft X1in = 83.3 CF

I do not see why you need to use this conversion though. It might be of interest to the seller, but why would you not simply grade and scale the logs and determine how much these logs are worth to you?

Oak prices are down right now; the firewood processor is probably aware of this and is probably looking to cut his losses. Most mills or processors have a certain diameter where the purchase price and processing time and energy consumes more than what the finished product will return. But why is he not selling the logs to a local mill? What is wrong with them?

The price that you wrote of ($200-$250/MBF) is currently about the equivalent of a red oak #2, #3, or pallet log, depending on where you are. IMO, an offer of $175 would be fair to him. Just don't undercut yourself by paying too much. In other words, don't pay the price of a #2 log for a log that is actually a #3 or pallet log.

Successful business to business marketing requires that each party involved produces a profit. Figure out what prices will produce profits for both of you and go from there.

Good luck,
Ed

Offline fstedy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 737
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Galloway, NJ
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2006, 04:41:31 AM »
The reason I asked for this conversion was so I could justify my price to him, as he is selling at firewood prices. This particular log is 30"  inside the bark on the small end and 9' in length. I'm not an experienced log grader but thid log looks like it will produce  large percentage of clear lumber. Both ends are clear of any type of rot or dark stains indicating metal and the bark has only several old small limbs that were grown over. He doesn't sell to any mills because there aren't any close by in this area. He has been in business for many years and has a lot of good connections for logs and this could be a nice source of logs for me.
Timberking B-20   Retired and enjoying every minute of it.
Former occupations Electrical Lineman, Airline Pilot, Owner operator of Machine Shop, Slot Machine Technician and Sawmill Operator.
I know its a long story!!!

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14150
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 05:48:05 AM »
How's he buying his logs?  Most guys buy by the ton.  1 cord of oak is about 3 tons, 1 Mbf of logs is about 6 tons.  You have to go to his raw price for the resource, not for his finished product.

Current prices for oak pulp, which is what most firewood really is, is about $25/ton.  Scragg logs will go for about $40/ton.  There are some delivery charges that make a difference.

If its a real nice log of veneer quality, you're looking more at the $1.50/bf rate.  But, I would assume the veneer has been pulled out of most firewood, unless its urban wood.

Upper quality red oak logs can go for $600-850/Mbf.  Stumpage is still in the $400-500 range in our area.  Tie logs are about $200/Mbf.

How much you can pay is dependent on your markets and yield.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline trouter

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Age: 47
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2006, 11:20:08 AM »
Ron,
   Are there guys paying that for scragg logs down your way? Were at 34.50-36.50 under 60 miles and 35.00-37.00 per ton over 60. Just wondering all our loggers are happy with that, only problem is that nobody can get in the woods at the moment either due to the state or township with the wet conditions. If things freeze up or dry off we will be in great shape just have to wait it out.

Offline Black_Bear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 300
  • Age: 49
  • Location: VT, NH
  • Gender: Male
  • UMaine Black Bears
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2006, 02:50:21 PM »
What is a scragg log?

Fstedy's log contains 44.2 CF, assuming a cylinder, and scales at ~380 BF (Doyle and Int 1/4"). 44.2CF * 1BF/0.0833CF = 531 BF. 150 BF are lost to waste? I would hope not.

This scale of 380 bf equates to about 116 CF/MBF.

44.2/75 = .589
44.2/83.3 = .531
44.2/116.3 = .380

I'd be interested to hear what the log yields for BF.

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14150
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 06:09:01 PM »
Bear

The Doyle & Int 1/4" scale assume a 1/4" kerf.  Counting the overage in the lumber at 1/8", each 4/4 board consumes 1.375" of wood.   380 bf * 1.375 = 522.5   Now, that's pretty close to your 531 bf that you had figured up.  So, yes, the 150 bf goes out the blower pipe and into the slab pile.

A scragg log is basically a really nice straight log, small in diameter.  They feed them through a 2 saw mill at a couple of logs/minute.  It is basically used for pallet production.

Trouter

I thought the bossman said he was getting a little more than that from you guys.  He had a lot longer haul.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Black_Bear

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 300
  • Age: 49
  • Location: VT, NH
  • Gender: Male
  • UMaine Black Bears
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2006, 07:59:09 AM »
So is a scragg log a log that gets run through a scragg mill or is it not dependent on the type of mill? Would a small diameter log that is run through a sash gang saw be called a sash gang log?

BTW, I'm not trying to be a wise-a$$, just curious. I think it's neat to discover regional terms that I haven't heard before.

Small diameter, straight logs = "pecker poles" in northern VT + NH.

Offline trouter

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Age: 47
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2006, 08:46:53 AM »
Ron
 Not sure I'll have to look into it.

Offline trouter

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Age: 47
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2006, 08:55:52 AM »
Black Bear
At least in our operation we look at a scragg log as basically polewood and our spec we use 6"-14" diameter and full length on a triaxle or two tiers on a trailer. I know some guys go down as far as 4" , we would use larger but then your getting into grade logs which have there own market plus I cant run much bigger then 15-16" they wont fit thru my cutoff. Probably other scragg mills out there can run larger just not ours.

Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26932
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin, USA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2006, 10:52:00 AM »
................. Would a small diameter log that is run through a sash gang saw be called a sash gang log?...............

Sash gangs take cants and break them down, which is a bit different from the Scragg mills that process the 'round' log.  Calling it a scragg log would likely only mean it meets the specs for a log heading for a particular Scragg mill.

The terms 'pecker wood' or 'pecker poles' get used for the classification of both logs and trees, depending on 'local' slang terms. It'd be hard to come up with a good, single definition of this name, IMO (even though locally, probably it is very specific as to what is included).
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline twoodward15

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Turnersville NJ
  • Gender: Male
  • turnersville NJ
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2006, 01:24:32 PM »
This guy doesn't happen to be up near McGuire/ ft Dix does he?  I had a line on a few red oak logs of that size over the summer and the guy wanted half the lumber for giving me the logs, then he wanted them removed for sawing and his half brought back to him.  For the life of me I can't remember the guys name or the location.
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder

Offline fstedy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 737
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Galloway, NJ
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2006, 03:48:42 PM »
towoodward
No it wasn't anyone near McGuire area. Did you ever get those logs cut you emailed me about last summer?
Timberking B-20   Retired and enjoying every minute of it.
Former occupations Electrical Lineman, Airline Pilot, Owner operator of Machine Shop, Slot Machine Technician and Sawmill Operator.
I know its a long story!!!

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14150
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2006, 05:07:54 PM »
Bear

Now that I think about it, I guess our industry just isn't very imaginative on naming logs.  Sawlogs are destined for a sawmill, veneer logs for the veneer mill, pulpwood or pulplogs goes to the pulp mill, and firewood goes into the fire for fuel. 

So, if logs go to a sash gang mill, I imagine you could call them sash logs, or gang logs.   ;)
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline twoodward15

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Turnersville NJ
  • Gender: Male
  • turnersville NJ
    • Share Post
Re: Log Pricing
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2006, 05:01:45 PM »
I'm dragging butt.  They are still standing.
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
big log/tie log pricing

Started by TomFromStLouis on Sawmills and Milling

16 Replies
3124 Views
Last post September 09, 2004, 07:58:34 PM
by FiremanEd
xx
Job Pricing?s

Started by fishingmike on Ask The Forester

8 Replies
1255 Views
Last post February 09, 2015, 06:40:29 AM
by Rick Alger
xx
Pricing help??

Started by gator gar on Sawmills and Milling

28 Replies
5218 Views
Last post July 04, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
by paul case
xx
I need help with pricing a job

Started by ChadH on Sawmills and Milling

19 Replies
1511 Views
Last post May 25, 2016, 10:08:58 AM
by ChadH
 


Powered by EzPortal