Clearcutting

[Skully]

Why would this be banned in National Forests?
This is a legitimate silvicultural system and some species of trees require this system to regenerate..!

Outlawing Clear-cutting is not responsible Forest Management


Dan :P

[Tom]

That's how I see it too, Dan

[Jeff]

Outlawing Clear-cutting would have nothing to do with "responsible" decisions.

[Ron Scott]

"They" have been trying to ban clearcutting (even-aged management) and in fact "all logging" on National Forest system lands for some time.

Right now under the National Forest Management Act of 1976 clearcuts on National Forest system lands can't be more than 40 acres in size and it must be the "optimum" silvicultural method with the objective being primarily for wildlife. Anything larger has to have special approvals of the Regional Forester etc.

Kirtlands Warbler clear cuts are up to 500 acres in size, but in conformance to the Huron-Manistee's Forests' Plan for management for this endangered species.

[D._Frederick]

Out here in Oregon, there had been a number of law suits because of clearcutting of mountain sides sliding down during winter storms , killing people, burying homes, destoying hiways.  The state has passed laws about the liability of clearcutting steep mountains.

[DanG]

Obviously, clear-cutting is not always the responsible thing to do, but it is not always irresponsible, either. Hmmmmm...do you suppose that's why Foresters ACTUALLY have to know their stuff?
Hats off to all you Foresters who preserve our resource, so the rest of us will have something to work with. 8) 8) 8)

[Jeff]

Yea, what that DanG DanG guy said.

[woodman]

It has i'ts place.

[Paul_H]

I haven't heard anything like that happening in B.C. There have been road failures in steep terrain,but not linked to clearcutting alone.(that I can recall).Here,each stream has to be assessed,and catagorized by a qualified engineer.If there are risks of failure due to unstable terrain,the stream is buffered,and no logging will take place in that zone.If the stream is stable ,logging may take place,but the steam must be cleaned of any debris introduced from the falling and yarding.
These regulations have been in place and enforced since 1991.
Our company logs 36000 m3 annually(around a 1000 truck loads).  85-90% is  by small clearcuts(less than 20 acre blocks).The rest is taken with alternate silviculture systems,such as a uniform shelterwood,(leaving 45-60 stems per hectare,to protect young seedlings on dry, South facing slopes.Most of the opposition to clear cutting I have seen or heard of,boils down to aesthetics.To me it is a short term problem.Part of our licences obligations,are to replant our blocks,and have the trees growing two thirds above the competing vegatation in 8-12 years.If we don't meet our obligations,we will lose part of, or all of our licence to cut.

That being said,I realize there has been some mismanagement in the past,and  fish streams have been damaged,roads have failed,and so on.But I believe that a properly engineered clear cut block is still an acceptable presciption in our terrain.(45+ % side slopes)

DFrederick,
If you wouldn't mind,could you show me where to find more information on the Oregon slides,&lawsuits.I want to pass it along to our crew.

Thanks

    Paul

[Ron Wenrich]

There are other objections to clearcutting besides aesthetics, although I would believe that is the number one problem.

Erosion has been cited.  Planting into a monocuture, which leads to a lack of bio-diversity.  The ladder effect of fires resulting from trees of several different ages in close proximity.  Nutrient loss, especially from whole tree chipping.

Arguements in favor of clearcutting are:  it saves money for harvesters, increase of streamflow, increased edge habitat, and less shade tolerant species.  The shade tolerant species often are not as economically favorable.  Think beech vs black cherry.

Clearcutting has it's place.  But, sometimes it can be over prescribed

[Paul_H]

Monoculture has been a misused term.Before our preharvest silviculture prescription plan is submitted,a cruise is taken.In most of our chart areas there are 1-3 dominant species.The one we are logging right now is as follows 1.Douglas Fir  2.Western Red Cedar  3.Balsam Fir(Abies amabilis).
The block currently being engineered is 1.Douglas Fir  2.WR Cedar.
Both blocks will be replanted according to the species stocking before harvesting.Along with those species will grow Birch, Alder,Cottonwood,and Western Hemlock through natural regeneration,not to mention numerous berries,and shrubs.
None of the last mentioned are recognized as an acceptable species in restocking ,by the Forest service.

[Ron Wenrich]

Monoculture can also be a timber type.  One of the reasons for vast defoliation by the gypsy moth in Pennsylvania was because we had an oak timber type from border to border.  That came about due to clearcutting, then moving on.

A climax forest is also a monoculture.  Only shade tolerant species are present.  So, monocultures can be naturally occurring.

[Paul_H]

WRC,Balsam Fir,and Western Hemlock are shade tolerant,but Hemlock is prone to mistletoe so it's not an acceptable plantation tree.Balsam Fir will stay in a semi dormant growth state till the canopy is removed or opened up.Some of the stunted Balsam will be around 4' high,and 1-2" dia,but are over 200 years old.Once released,it will do fine.(I have heard they make a decent Bonsai tree)

One prescription I found interesting was replanting a Cedar flat with both Cedar,and Cottonwood.When the Cottonwood is a merchantable size,remove it,and plant more Cedar&Cottonwood.Continuing on with the planting and harvesting, until the Cedar reaches maturity.
Birch and Alder would probably work well too.

[Skully]

Ron I was wondering what your definition of a "climax" forest is.  It is my understanding that forests are in a constant state of change whether it be naturally or human intervention.  That is why I believe that the term "climax" forest is a term of the past?

my .02 cents

Dan :P

[Ron Wenrich]

There are various types of species in every type of region.  They start with pioneer species and go to climax species.  It all depends on their order in the forest succession from bare land to climax forest.  The climax forest is the final chain in the succession.

Most of this has to do with the species tolerance to shade.  The more tolerant species are most likely to be climax species.  Sugar maple, beech, white oak and hemlock are commonly associated with hardwood climax forests of the NE. They also tend to be slower growing.

That doesn't mean that forests never change.  There are naturally occuring disturbances that will disrupt or start the succession.  Hurricanes, severe ice storms, fire, insects and disease are a few that are associated with that.  

Sometimes the mortality is widespread, sometimes fairly isolated.  It depends on how big or small you want to make your forest.  Foresters tend to look at a forest in smaller blocks than other people.  It often comes down to a very small community.  German forestry even manages for different strata of the forest - high, middle, and low.  We haven't achieved that vision yet.

If you keep on using thinnings as a means of forest management, you will eventually get to the climax forest.  At some point, you may want to get back to the pioneer stage, so you clearcut.  But, many plantings begin with something in the intermediate tolerant species.  Seems that is where the more desirable wood is at.

Uneven-aged management can be achieved through 2 different techniques.  One being constant thinnings where there are several ages.  The other is to knock holes in the forest that are at least 1/4-1/2 acre.  These would be clearcuts.  Usually, natural regeneration is allowed to seed these in, at least here in the east.  It gives several different ages, but limits the forest from reaching a climax stage.

Climax isn't a term of the past.  In many situations, the forest isn't allowed to reach that stage since it isn't being managed for that.  To do that we would have to extend our rotation from 75 years to 400 years.

[Jeff]

Ron, do I recall correctly that Peter Rennie from over at about.com talking about that up where he is at (British Columbia?) that they do manage on 400 year rotations?

[Ron Wenrich]

That's my understanding.  I'm not sure that all areas in BC do that.  His work is mainly on Crown lands.  That's a level of management that is above most in our country.

Maybe Paul_H could give us more info.

[Paul_H]

Most of the Presciptions are managing for sawlogs at 80-120 year rotations.I was just looking at a prescription for a block we logged 2 years ago.It was a small Cedar&Fir block that we hoe chucked.Mature Cottonwoods were left standing for cover,and long term course woody debris.

It called for sawlogs within 85 years.I would think that 400 years wouldn't be unreasonable,but I'm sure there would be some thinning some where along the way.

[Ron Wenrich]

I think they were managing for old growth forests.  It may have been in selected areas.  But, there would be thinnings all along the way.  There just wasn't any clearcutting until they got to the final stage.

[Paul_H]

On the blocks we've done in uniform shelterwood(45-55 stems per hectare), the blocks as a whole, won't be logged for at least 80 years.Maybe a light comercial thin at some point.The trees left for shelter were an average size for the blocks,and all over 140 years.All healthy,minor wind throw in the blocks

It's too bad I won't be around to see them,when it's time to harvest.I'll bet there will be some pretty nice Fir.

[Frank_Pender]

As  to clearcutting by some of the big boys around here, I heard the other night at a Watershed Council meeting that Williamette Industries had a cycle of 45 years on their land, whereas "Weyhouser" (sp) has a 37 year cycle.  Many of these firms are beginning to use what is called around here as "super trees" (fast grown).   What will happen to structural integerity is anyones guess. :'(  They are also limited on the tract size to max out at 120 acres at a time to clearcut.  the site nextdoor cannot be harvested until the clearcut is well started after replanting.

[Tom]

"Super" trees for lumber will create a whole new bag of worms for  the grading folks, don't you know?

[Frank_Pender]

Tom, the thing with the bag of worms is that the lumber inudstry itself regulates or should I say strongly influences the grading industry on lumber as well as the logs.  I have always felf that the fox is helping run the henhouse.  both regulatory agencies have very strong representation on the board of directors of each.   :'(  Am I filled with envy, notnot really but it sure would be nice to have some representation from the Small Woodlands people on the log end of things as well as the very small sawmill operatiors represented on the grading board of directors.  We may always be out-voted or gaveled out of order, but we would have a voice.  Perhaps, one day. :

[Tillaway]

California allows 20 acre clearcuts on up to 30 acres on low erosion hazard rated soils.  Cable systems can go to 40 acres on low EHR ground.

There are allot of loosely defined shelterwoods out here.  Normally you cut the sheltering trees about four or five years, if you plant, after the initial shelter wood harvest or when you have established stocking.

The FS was kicking around the idea of gowing to a 500 year rotation for Douglas Fir on the Siuslaw National Forest.  They had planned to grow Western Hemlock as crop trees in the understory. .

[Paul_H]

Tillaway,
What kind of problems are to be expected,in falling the shelter trees after the saplings grow.We haven't had to go back and take them,and I don't think our convex slopes would allow it.Even as little as 45 stems per hectare,would make a mess of the saplings,never mind yarding them,though it would be nice to get them out.

A few of the shelterwood blocks are mainly to shade the seedlings on the dry SW slopes, but most are politically motivated in our district to meet visual quality objectives, VQO's. At least 10% of our cut must be done with an alternate silviculture system.
Did you have similar experiences in the Charlottes?

Frank,
Thats interesting,at a cycle of 45 years,it's no wonder Fir pulp prices are at such a low.($25 CDN per m3) in the water.

[Tillaway]

Paul,
The key to harvesting Shelterwood overstory is to get back in there early.  What you are trying to do is get your seedling established only.  If your seedlings are only a few years old and you are fully stocked or preferrably overstocked you can fall the trees on them and there will be little damage, the trees just spring back.  If you wait too long, sapling, pole size then you will break them and cause more damage .  A shelterwood removal will look like a clearcut that has just greened up immediately after harvest. Also any damage will be thinned out during spacing (precommercial thinning) in the future.  
This works best on flat ground with designated skid trails and ground based equipment.  You would have to skyline (full suspension if you can) or helicopter on the steep ground.  I DonT think highlead would be appropriate exept for a more concave slope where you could get a little suspension.

We "Shelterwood remove" here all the time in stands that could use a good commercial thin but then we do almost all ground based logging even on the cable ground.
 : :(

[D._Frederick]

Paul-H
The slides that I referred to happened in the mid ninetys on the southern coast range. They have a soil with a lot of rock and sand, it slides easily when wet. The state and the feds did a lot of evaluation of the slides. If I remember correctly, more clear cuts had bad slides that took out road and filled up streams than the forests that did not have logging.
It always make the papers here when somebody gets there house destroyed or killed by a slide coming out of a clear cut on a steep mountain side. On hiway 101 on the coast this past winter, the road slid into the ocean because of water coming out of a clear-cut. The road was closed for months with long detours.
Frank Pender is going to talk to the State Forester and see what regs came out of Salem.

[Paul_H]

D._Frederick,
Thanks,that's a good start.I'll try to find it on the web,or check with the BC Forest Service.If you can tell me which news paper,it could help for us to go that route.

[Tillaway]

I was living on the coast just North of one of the slides with the fatalities mentioned.  It occurred on the Umpqua River between Scottsburg and Reedsport.  I drove by the spot just after it happened since I traveled that road allot.  That cut was helicopter logged and a buffer was left above the highway.  The slopes on that hill had numerous rock bluffs and were average over 70%..  The soils on the central Oregon coast are very shallow often only a two feet to soil bedrock.  It grows trees like mad right on top that rock but the hills slip no matter if you log or not.  The soil just slips right off.

Changing silviculture to address the slide problems is a feel good measure.  Partial cutting in that area particularly only leads to a clearcut because after the next winter you salvage your crop trees after they blow down.  If you break up the stand continuity with any kind of partial cut, the first winter storm combined with the shallow water saturated soils leads to the entire stand blowing down.  This is simply ground you can't effectively partial cut.

The average winter in that area would make National news if hit Florida.  Basically wind gusts over 60 MPH, in fact that isn't much of a blow.  At 85 MPH they used to have to use a log loader to hold the roof over the Texaco station in Florence's gas pumps.  My windows would bow in at 90MPH and the anemometer at Sea Lion caves blow off at 102 MPH. (I lived there eleven years).

[DanG]

I'm sorry, but I have little sympathy for people who will build their houses in the paths of mudslides, avalanches, or tidal storm surges. These people should be left uninsured, and should take the risk themselves. As it is, I, along with the rest of you, and most of the other landowners in the country, end up paying for those people's luxury. I think that if you can't afford to replace, then you shouldn't build in a hazardous zone. If your finance company won't loan without insurance, then pay cash, or do without. I realize that this seems a little hard-hearted, but I'm growing a little tired of paying ridiculous insurance rates, just so the fat cats can have their house on the beach without any risk. I'd much rather see a society that has no insurance, no regulation, and no mortgage. There would be a lot of people living in shanties, but very few living in a washing machine carton in the public park. >:(

Sorry if this sounded like a rant, but that's what it was. :D

[Tillaway]

DanG, The problem with the fatalities that got it all started was that the slide hit a couple of cars on the highway killing the occupants.  

I do agree with your rant though, but it is kind of funny, these storms in this area do little property damage.  The houses are built to withstand them, in fact in town we often barley had the lights flicker during a normal storm.  The mountains bare the brunt of the damage.

[Frank_Pender]

The Oregon Dept. of Forestry did make  a decision on July 19 this year.  What that decision was/is I have yet to  find out.  I will try again tomorrow. :P ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

Tillway

I lived in that same area back in '72.  I was a choker setter for Elkside, but it was in the spring.  I don't recall weather as severe as you mentioned.  I stayed at a motel in Florence, and had to run to Reedsport for my mail.  I hated the fog, which was always there.  

If I recall, we did a lot of clearcutting up in the mountains.  We could see the ocean, but it was a good shot away.  I don't recall anyone talking about mudslides back then.  We also did partial cuts on ridge tops, for some reason.  Could have been aesthetics.

It seems to me that there are just some areas that shouldn't be managed for timber.  Maybe those steep slopes would qualify.  

Farmers have learned to work with the contours of the hills to reduce erosion.  Is there anything like that being done with timber harvesting?

[D._Frederick]

DanG,
You are 100% correct on the above posting. If my memory is correct, there was a case about 5 years ago were a slide took out a house that was built at the base of a known slide. The timber company clearcut there timber again, and the slide took out the house and covered the road. There was a big suit over it, but the county approved the building permit and the state approved the logging. The lawyers where the winners. It doesn't take much mental power to tell that slides had occured here before. The realitors and developers will sell anything to make a buck then run,  the elected county people are put in office by the money from the realitors and developers.  Even are retired Senator Hatfield bought himself a house built on a sand dune that the ocean is washing away!

[Tillaway]

eeewww, I'm sorry Ron, that's some nasty, brushy, steep country.  I once went a measured 150' in two steps in that country... step ssssllllliiiddddeeeee, step sssssllllliiidddddeeeee.  The Spring is the nicest time of the year along with Fall in that area.  Winter it's either really nice or blowing 60 MPH and the rain drops feel like bullets.

All that land on those slopes is some of, or the most productive timberlands in the state.  It is common to have between 40MBF to 60MBF to the acre in second growth (50 year old) Doug Fir.  There is little chance this will be set aside to prevent slides.  The thing is that the slides only get peoples attention when they come from a recently logged area.  All the hills slide like this even with timber on them.  All the steep draws or V notches on the hills are bare solid bedrock from the constant sliding even in the timbered areas.  The trees slide or fall down into these draws and eventually enough debris accumulates and a heavy rain acts almost like a slash dam sending the debris down into the rivers.  That sounds bad with all that hitting Salmon streams but the fisheries biologists in the area love these slides.  The rivers, Siuslaw system, Alsea System and lower Umpqua (Smith river) drainage are solid bedrock rivers just like the upper draws.  They have little spawning gravel and lack complexity needed to produce as many Salmon as they could.  These slides add complexity and gravel.  Other coastal systems would not benefit from this but this area does, it's kind of unique.