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Author Topic: Do the edges touch when you sticker?  (Read 5612 times)

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Offline brdmkr

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Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« on: March 12, 2006, 10:05:04 PM »
When you sticker lumber for drying, do the edges of the boards touch?  I have always left a space thinking that this would promote drying.  Today, I restacked some pecan just to see how it was coming along.  I am embarrassed to say that it looked BAD (so bad, there won't be any pics.  I just couldn't bring myslef to have a record of this).  At least half of the boards were highly warped accross the face.  I will have to joint up to an inch to edge many of these.  All of the boards were 5/4 x 6.  I would have thought that would have really helped with the warping.  Also, they had some weight on them (hundreds of lbs).  All boards were about 12 ft long.  I didn't sticker as frequently as I should have.  I was using about a 2 ft interval between stickers.  Still, I thought they lshould have looked better than this.  I think it is the most disappointed I have been with sawmilling since I started.

Anyway, this got me to thinking that if the edges of the boards were touching there would have been more stress holding the boards straight.  Does this make sense?  Should I sticker with edges touching?  So, to touch edges or not to touch edges, that is the question.  Unless, of course, there is something else I need to do!!!

Thanks in advance.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2006, 10:18:02 PM »
how tall was your stack? 

how level is your base?

did you put any weight on the wood?

i leave an inch or so between boards when I'm stacking.
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Offline Tom

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2006, 10:22:01 PM »
It doesn't make much difference  how close you stack the boards.  They shrink and leave a gap anyway.  I always start off with a gap of about a finger's width because I was shown how a stack breathes if you do.  If the same size boards are used and the slots line up, the stack will draw like a chimney.  I've seen cigarette smoke blown under the stack and come pouring out the top.

As far as stress.  The best thing for stress control is to saw the boards with the heart centered so that there is equal stress on each side of the board.   You can't do that with quarter sawed but then it doesn't cup.   The crooking, or bending to the side, can be challenging though.

If you are sawing crooked logs, then don't blame yourself.  There is an old story about making a silk purse from a sow's ear, you know.

I was told to sticker at eighteen inches with the first sticker within 3 inches of the end of he board.  The thicker the sticker the faster the board dries.  Sometimes a smaller sticker and slower drying will help to minimize degrade.

I also was told, years ago, to expect 60 percent degrade when drying hardwoods.  You can better that by selecting the good wood from the bad after drying but the number helps you to keep your sanity.  By cutting the boards a little thick, you have allowed yourself room to plane out the warping.  That's good.  You may have to make 1x4's out of 1x6's too.  But, you will end up with saleable lumber.

Pecan is one of the hardest woods to dry. partly because of knots and twisted grain.  I have trouble with Pecan too.  There is a saving factor.  Run the price up to compensate for the degrade and the labor.   Have you ever wondered why some hardwoods are so expensive?  One reason is because the percentage of marketable product is so little compared to the labor and quantity of original product.
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Offline dundee

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2006, 11:54:40 PM »
Hi Gentlemen, Having spent 23 years in Borneo, all of which we had 17 hardwood mills, milling species which are unlike the species you fella's mill in the states. We had many species of hardwood that were impossible to conventional kiln dry, hence we stickered, the formula we had was:---

1. Using stickers of the same species
2. Absolute thickness and width  (18mmx45mm)
3. Spacing of stickers = 300mm
4. Stickers at the ends of the stacks/ rows were right on the edge
5. Stickers were 100% in-line from top to bottom
6. Stack covers were deployed
7. The stacks were side on to the prevailing wind
8. Some species had to have shade cloth dropped down from top to bottom as the sun played havoc causing accelerated cell collapse and warp

Hope this helps with the difficult species you guy's have

Regards
Richard
New Zealand

Offline Tom

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2006, 12:23:39 AM »
Yep, other than all those MM measurements, that's pretty much what is recommended here too.  :D
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Offline dundee

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2006, 12:57:08 AM »
Reckon it's time for you all up there to atune yourself to MM Tom  ;D

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2006, 12:59:20 AM »
I've tried, Dundee.  My head doesn't work in MM's.   I have to go get a chart.  :D
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 01:07:34 AM »
Tammy put a whole bowl of pastel easter colored MMs on the center kitchen island. I about got them polished off and I still cant relate to the post, however I do know that its a good one. Thanks Dundee!
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2006, 01:11:17 AM »
2. Absolute thickness and width  (18mmx45mm)
(0.7086600000000001" X 1.7716500000000001"
3. Spacing of stickers = 300mm (11.811 inches)
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Offline dundee

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2006, 01:15:43 AM »
I guess from now on (when posting anything else)-- I will TRY and convert myself to inches and feet--Oh dear !!! ;D---thanks for the conversion Jeff

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2006, 01:22:53 AM »
Oh--I forgot to mention, milling under metric has a better log conversion and better recovery, in other words, we don't overcut

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2006, 01:53:14 AM »
Just playing with ya Dundee. ;) The only volume measuring standard that is really officialy recognized by the forum is the "Whack"  as in a whack of logs or a whack of lumber. :)
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Offline jimF

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2006, 07:52:12 AM »
What do you mean by warp - cupping, crook, bow, twist?  The best way to reduce warp is increase drying rate.

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2006, 09:12:57 AM »
3. Spacing of stickers = 300mm (11.811 inches)

Thanks for the info dundee and the conversion Jeff y'all solved my drying problems ... I've been stickering at 12"! ;D
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Offline brdmkr

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2006, 09:45:44 AM »
Dan and Tom

I posted a response to both of your initial replies, but evidently it got lost in cyber-space.  I may have posted in the wrowng thread :o  If I did , that would make folks think I am stranger than I am ;D.

Dan,

My stack was relatively level, had approximately 400 lbs of weight on top, and was about 4 ft tall.  The stickers were perhaps a little far apart.

Tom,

Thanks for sharing the difficulties of drying pecan.  As you said, all is not lost as I can still get decent boards from this.  I just may have to lose a good bit to the table saw, jointer, and planer.  I am learning, so I suppose this is just part of paying my dues.  I really need to thank DanG here as well as he is the one that got me cutting 5/4.  I'f I'd cut this 4/4, I would have 'craft wood' at best.  I was not planning on selling the lumber, I was planning on gluing it up into panels and maybe making some cabinets.  I suppose I still can, I just may need more pecan as my 800+ bdft is really more like 400.

Dundee,

Thanks for your detailed suggestions as well.  I think that some of this pecan will be sacrificed for the next pecan I cut.  I'll take some of these boards and make some really uniform stickers.


Perhaps on the next batch my yield will increase!
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Offline woodbowl

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2006, 10:10:15 AM »
What do you mean by warp - cupping, crook, bow, twist?  The best way to reduce warp is increase drying rate.

    I've heard it both ways, with and with out a kiln.  I don't really know the pros and cons of the established standards in drying hardwoods for the industry, but I have found a type of forgivness out here in the woods for us air driers. Rapid loss of moister prompts most people to make a tight stack with small stickers underneath a shelter. This can be foiled as well here in the deep south due to high moisture content most of the year especially during dog days, July and August when a mid day shower is certain.    
   People stack every kind of way you can imagine, but the one that sticks out in my mind is when hard wood is stacked in the weather, in a loose stack, in the shade, during dog days. These stacks don't get a chance to dry untill dog days are over. They get rained on almost every day for about two months. The board flashes off from the surface a little each day allowing the center of the board to reduce it's moisture content ever slightly. After the seasonal rains, the stack dries faster. The boards may be grey, some mushrooms may have started in the middle of the stack and the top layer may look like giant corn chips, but the rest of the boards are straighter on an avarage with minimal checking. Some people simulate this process each day with a water hose all through the year.
    
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Offline DanG

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2006, 10:36:35 AM »
Brdmkr, there's plenty of pecan just waiting for ya down here.  Better come whack it up before the worms get all of it. ;)
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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2006, 10:46:00 AM »
And there they are.



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Offline dundee

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2006, 11:22:49 AM »
RE: "Whack of"
To: Jeff B.
CC: Kiwi Ianab

Well, in all my years in the Lumber industry I have never --ever heard of the expression "A WHACK OF LOGS / LUMBER

It just goes to show we learn something every day, especially in this forum, I have noted the expression for any future postings

Us Kiwis have a few expressions as well, (when things go horribly wrong)   ;D

Best
Richard
New Zealand

Offline brdmkr

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Re: Do the edges touch when you sticker?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2006, 11:30:05 AM »
Dan

We may be able to work on those pecans soon.  I'll send you a PM.

Dundee.....  I like Whack-o-logs.   Means more than a few, not quite too many.  I think ???
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to


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