What can be used to power a big auger bit?

[TW]

I am involved in moving an old loghouse. We do some repairs to it as well and we have had to install lots of trunnels (or pins or whatewer you call them) to stabilize the walls.
The trunnel holes are 38 mm = 1 1/2" in diameter and they go through one log and halfways into the next so they are often about 40 cm =16"deep.

First we drilled with the old type auger with only a handle across the top. Then I made a big brace that can be cranked with both hands simultaneously. The problem is that it wastes a lot of time.
The big electric drill machines are a bit too expensive for me right now but they seem to be the only possibility.

How much power is needed?
Any other ideas?

[beenthere]

TW
Time is money. Either you are saving it or 'spending' it. Sounds like a decision you need to make, whether the cost of a power tool outweighs the 'waste of a lot of time', as you put it. It is work and time consumming. 
Any chances you have rental places like we do that would rent you a power drill on a week or month time period?

[slowzuki]

A 60$ big 1/2" or 5/8" low speed drill off ebay would get it done for you.  They have a big long side handle and single speed of 550 rpm usually.

[Jim_Rogers]

550 rpm is still to fast for a self feeding auger bit.
They are made to be turned by hand.
If you get a power drill, get a power drill bit.....

Jim Rogers

[Don P]

You'll need a 1/2" drill minimum. We've drilled hundreds of electric holes in the last few weeks with 1"ship augers that are 17" long. We typically drill floor to ceiling 1 or 2 holes for each electric box. I prefer the "nail eater" type as they can take a few nail hits, a lipped auger bit usually gets trashed if it hits steel.
The drill needs to be the slower speed as mentioned, I had a 1200 rpm large drill break a wrist badly when I got smacked into a steel C-channel. After that I researched and found a Timberwolf right angle drill, DeWalt makes it now. The drill is 2 speed and when in low it has a clutch that slips at 75 foot pounds. It is rather pricey but I figured the wrist cost me far more. Around here plumbers use them alot, prevents punching joists while holesawing.
I look at tool purchases as a money equation, they almost always pay off very fast. I usually rent bigger equipment and buy smaller stuff.

[sawdust]

I adapted a bit so it would fit onto an gas powered ice auger. Lots of power, I was drilling 2" holes in the ground down 5 feet. The problem I encountered was when the bit threaded itself into the ground like a wood screw. Needed a pipewrench to back it out.

sawdust

[slowzuki]

I know the 550 rpm is too fast but that is the speed most of the big bertha drills turn at unfortunatly.  An option that you could look as is a 1/2 chuck adpater onto 3/8 or 1/2 air rachet.  They turn about 90 rpm with some good wrist breaking torque.

I have a big rotary hammer that can be set to drill only and it has a clutch so you don't break a wrist but it only goes down to 400 rpm or so and it was expensive.

If you can't get the speed down, spade bits like to go fast and are cheap.  The quality of hole isn't as good in my expenience.  Maybe if you started the hole with the brace then spade drilled the rest keeping in mind you will have tearout on the other side.  Maybe this isn't an issue for the pinning work.

[Don P]

This is a link to the bits I like, they don't come larger than 1-1/4" though.

http://www.mygreenlee.com/products/det.cfm?id=4450&upc=30937

The timberwolf turns at 340rpm on low 1200 on high.

My Milwaukee Hole Hawg turns at 300, that is a nice adaptable case on that drill  ;)

The second review of the hole hawg is about right.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004T16M/102-0109539-8545717?v=glance&n=228013

[TW]

Renting is not an option because we build in weekends. I will likely be hired for another similar project next summer so it may be worth buying before that project starts. There are not that many holes left on this project. I thought that it is time to start researching early as I am a slow decisionmaker.

Slowzuki
I wonder if air ratchets are mede for continous running? Do'nt they have a beating motion intended to get bolts loose?

Don P
Those nail eaters are not sold here and they are too small.
I wish electric tools were as cheap here as in that hole hawg advertisement. That is only about 200€. Only a little more expensive than the selfdestructing Chineese ones.

Sawdust
Gas powered ice augers are expensive as well. The idea seems good if I can find a second hand one.



Thanks for the input on rpm. I did not imagine that it has to be that low.

By the way. The log lift that I inquired about earlier is ready for the first big logs. We have already tested it on small ones. I think we will try to lift the first big ones next Sunday. I hope it works.

[slowzuki]

Some air rachets can run continuously, I think you are thinking of impact wrenches though.

How good of hole do you need? I recently bored a bunch of big holes using an extension, a hole saw on a light duty 1/2" drill and a chisel to chunk out the cores.

[barbender]

TW- I have been using my Dewalt 18v cordless to drill holes for those little log lifts I had on my log house post. Those are 3/4" and about 6" deep and just my cordless works fine on those.  I would think a 1/2" corded drill would work fine for the holes you are drilling as long as you use an auger bit designed for electric drills. I have a big milwuakee with the extended handle I plan on using when I drill all the holes for the wooden pins on our log house.  But, if I planned on doing a lot of this type of work like it sounds like you are, I might look at getting a Hole Hawg or something like that.

[TW]

Barbender
I have a 13 mm 400W Metabo corded drill and it is WAY too small, At least for the 1 1/2 auger bits that I have used. I can barely crank the brace by hand.

I am talking about quite many holes. I have drilled about 40 holes by hand so far and there are about 20 left on that house.

What is the difference between an auger bit designed for power drills and one desiugned for hand power?

[Don P]

TW,
I don't know about voltage or frequency there, or shipping, but if I can get you one here and ship it cheaper than you can get one there, PM me.

After bragging on my Timberwolf, it died  :'(. Got a new switch and brushes coming, we use forward and reverse alot. Rode the hawg all day, at one point I had the 4 foot long bit in it. Standing atop a log wall,that'll keep you awake. That left my Milwaukee compact hole shooter 1/2" as the screwgun. Compact is a misnomer, that single speed beast is half again larger than the hawg, with a bigger pipe handle and spins at 450. The wind down on that one is long. Seems real long when it grabs your coat (don't ask me how I know that).

Another thing to toss around, if I repair the timberwolf I'd probably be willing to part with it for about 1/3 price, the armature is coming up on replacement,the commutator is worn. It has hundreds of hours and may not be a bargain, just another thought. I will replace it at some point, that is the first choice big drill whenever we get one from the toolbox.

I went down and got my old brace bits to compare to my power bits. They are very similar, both have a threaded lead screw that is about the same pitch and count. The body of the power bits is stouter, especially as they get larger. I know the steel in those nail eaters is tough. I will admit to sawing the tapered square off a number of old bits and using them in power drills. The sharpening angle on a bit has more to do with its aggresiveness than the screw. I've calmed them down by sharpening a little more obtuse, a couple of degrees makes a big difference. More scraping action than digging if it is trying to screw itself too hard. Too obtuse and the lead screw will strip out of the wood and the bit will not self feed. Those are the 2 sides of the road, try to sharpen where you stay between the extremes.


I saw these tonight, the long ship augers are similar to what I use. They have a 1-1/2"
http://www.mytoolstore.com/milwauke/accaugr.html

[TW]

Don P
That was a kind offer but it would not work. We hawe 230 volt 50 hertz.

At least I am starting to know what to look for. I have to start looking if it is worth buying or if I have a good pay per hour of cranking.

Thanks for the information.

[TW]

I have looked at prizes for big angle drills of the type you propose.
They are from 600 euro and upwards. That is roundabout 700$. A young carpenter like me earns about
10 euro per hour before tax. That means that the machine costs about 2 weeks pay. Terrible.

People say that air ratchets are not made for continous running. Further they need a too big compressor.

Has anybody tried to make a big drill from a 3 phase motor that is geared down somehow?

[scsmith42]

tw - I wonder if there is an affordable converter that will convert your 230V 50hz into 240V 60 hertz?  If so, you may be better off to purchase one and then be able to purchase more affordable products?

[slowzuki]

I just bought a 1/2" makita drill that turn 550 rpm maximum and it cost about 170$ Canadian.  They also made one that was cheaper but single speed.  I think both are rated for 1.5" holes in wood.

[TW]

I have looked at those too, Both Makita and DeWalt. They cost from 300 euro (about 350 US $)and upwards over here. Though Both Jim Rogers and Don P say that 500 rpm is too fast.
Please can you post a short report on how it works when you have tested it for a while.
Is it about 700W like the ones sold here?

[slowzuki]

I'll have a look tonight, the one I bought has to squeezed hard to turn 500 rpm.  I bought it for drilling metal as my other 1/2 drill spins way too fast for larger bits.

Ok this is the one speed unit:
http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=112121&Referrer=Kelkoo

Could wire to a cheap fan variac to get variable speed.  They are called the wrist busters here.

This is similar to what I bought, I got a keyed chuck and mine turns slower.
http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/products.php?cat=Rotary%20Drills&source=kelkoo#MAKITADP4003

Hmm, finding drills in the UK is hard!  I'll keep trying.

[Don P]

That D handled Makita is a piece of  :  ;D I've burned up a few of the smaller drills trying to use big bits, its a workout for a big drill.

I looked deeper on one of Slowzuki's sites and saw this one.
Makita's TimberWolf
It should hold up and has the clutch.

[TW]

Don P
That makita timberwolf is one I have looked at. It costs 600 euro opr a bit more in Finland.

[TW]

A second thought.

If I had not consulted this forum I would probably have bought the D handled Makita or a quite similar one by another maker. Now I will not do that misstake. The salesmen say they are big enough but I trust your words that they are not.

Thanks for the warning Don P

A question about angled drills:
As the weight is not centered above the bit, doesn't this make drilling more difficult and increase the risk of breaking the drill?

[slowzuki]

The other thing I didn't mention is a big rotary hammer like a Makita HR3000C has a clutch and drill only mode (also a drill and hammer and a hammer only mode) and is variable speed from 250 to 700 rpm or so.

If you are gonna spend the big dollars this is the rig to get since you can use it for much more afterwards.

The single speed makita has the power to turn the bit but would really need a speed control to slow it down.  Without a clutch it earns its wristbreaker name.  They are usually used here for mixing drywall compound or cranking basketball nets up or down.

[hardworker]

Hi TW,
I used a milwaukee 3107 right angle drill to drive 1" x 18" bits 3/4" x 24" bits  1 1/4" x 6" bits .
I originally used it for electrical work , mixed tile mastic, but used it to build my sobon shed.
I'm sure it would drive larger bits. It's heavy, though.
It's a little different from the other milwaukee drill. You can see it on amazon.com.
It's around $250 here.  There's no clutch.  It's low speed and variable speed. That's what you really want IMHO, not just low speed.
As far as holding it and centering it, once you get going the bit is guided by the hole. The hard part is starting a hole that is plumb or going the way you want.
Aren't the logs green?  These drills can  put big holes in dried wood.

Jonathan

[TW]

I was offered a secondhand electric motor with a worm gear drive attached. That would be a start for a home made machine.

Is 50 or 60 rpm too slow for a 1 1/2" auger bit?

[Raphael]

It's a little slow but it should do the job provided it's got the torque to keep turning.
After all auger its work fine in a hand brace.

[mike_van]

We were in Alaska, 1989 - went to the McCarthy & the old Kennecott Copper Mine Massive wood framed buildings from 1905 or so, somebody did a lot of hand drilling on these - Link to Kennecott

[TW]

Raphael
I think the motor is 750 watt three phase and that geared down to 50 or 60 rpm surely gives some torque.
I am just worried that it would drill as slowly as i drill with the T-auger.

[Norwiscutter]

The only thing that I have come close to breaking with my hole hawg is my wrists. Like Don said, when these drills snub up, the wind down time can seem like forever. There are certain tools that I have that really seem to collect dust in the shop but boy do they come in handy when needed.   If you don't already have a 1/2 inch electric drill, I would think that it would be a more of an all around tool, although it wouldn't be too happy with the 1 1/2 inch holes you are talking about.  When it comes to electric drills, I have always stayed with Milwaukee because they have a reputation for being bombproof.

What about finding an older benchtop drill press and fabricating something that would suit your purpose?

[Raphael]

Cool link Mike...
Doesn't look like the old Kennecott mine has changed much since we were up there in 1969, that's where I accidently smashed my sister's big toe with a rock while trying to kill a bee.  :
I wonder if she's gotten over it yet.  :D

Raphael
I think the motor is 750 watt three phase and that geared down to 50 or 60 rpm surely gives some torque.
I am just worried that it would drill as slowly as i drill with the T-auger.

If you can keep a T-auger turning at 50-60 rpm I'm seriously impressed. 
  I think your motor will drill very close to boring machine speeds, just sitting here swinging my arms at what feels like my usual pace I came up with 54 rpm.

[TW]

Sopunds good
;) If I was that fast with the T-auger it would be no need for a machine.

I will take a closer look at the motor and try to find out what the actual rpm is. The scrapdealer did not know for sure and there was no sign on the gearbox. He wants about 80 euro (100$) for it and that is cheap compared to 700 euro (840$)for a electrical drill of that size. Prize includes "money back" if there is any invisible damage to the unit. He offered to barter with some scrap iron I want to get rid of.
An aquintance who is elecrican offered to do the electical work if I help him with some carpentry.

[Greg]

Why can't you just use a (relatively inexpensive) 1/2" drill with a spade bit?

I just bought a new dewalt for $169. It WILL break your wrist. Irwin makes these for up to 1 1/2" wide for about $5. They drill just dandy even through the hardest driest oak. This simple setup + my corner chisel = my "poor man's" mortising machine.

(Sure it like a makita or mafell chain mortiser, but doing this part time and weekends it just doesn't make economic sense to cough up that $2 -4 k)

Since I use alot of reclaimed/dry beams I have essentially given up on hand cranked augers and self feeding bits. With green or soft woods, they can work pretty well. Otherwise, even as only a hobbysit, after wasting alot of time with augers, I've concluded: too much of a pain to mess with.

Just my opinion, of course.

Greg

[SwampDonkey]

I was wondering if you could rig something up with a used Stihl or Husky thinning saw. Just take the shaft out that goes to the blade, and put a shaft of the auger bit inside the tube instead. You could shorten the tube some with a hacksaw.  A Husky 260 would be best, more torque. That way you have a throttle control and everything.  ;D

[Jim_Rogers]

60 rpm are way to fast for an auger bit, let alone a powered unit.

Jim Rogers

[SwampDonkey]

Probably burn up the wood. I used to set my drill on slow, it is a Makita with a screw knob on the throttle to control the rpms.

I was thinking of an auger used in digging post holes in the ground.  ;D

[slowzuki]

As an extension to this thread, a geared non-clutched drill will cause you lots of pain turning a 1.5" hole saw into 6" well casing for installing a pitless adapter.  I will be using the clutched rotary hammer next time.  Also, if you have to drill two holes, and the well is a flowing artesian, drill the top one first, the water cools the teeth and lets it cut well.

[TW]

Did I explain something wrong?

I plan for drilling 1 1/2" diameter holes in LOGS. I need a faster way to make the pegholes when doing logbuilding. The T-auger is too slow and the big milwaukee and makita drills are too expensive.
Power tools are not for free over here.


There is no arthesian water in our pine nor spruce ;D ;D Is it THAT wet in America? ;D ;D

In fact I did not know that you use something called "auger" for drilling wells. I have never heard of anybody drilling wells without big special machinery that can drill through stone.
Our soil is very rocky so I guess it would bend any of your augers in the first two metres.

[Jim_Rogers]

TW:
Have you ever seen one of these over there?



I could sell you one, but the shipping might be a lot....

Here is a photo of one being used to bore a hole through a round timber:



Man powered, no electricity needed, completely portable and quite....



Jim Rogers

[SwampDonkey]

Actually  ;D , if your good at looking for signs of artesian wells then an auger might be all you need.  ;D I don't claim to be an expert finding them, but I have found one on the farm. Dome-like hill, water seepage at the toe of the hill. There is one farm down the road that is full of springs to and all they had was a hand dug well for decades, still used. They also have 4 spring fed fish ponds. My cousin also has a hand dug well in a spring that fed two houses and a cattle trough for water. ;D

I think there are threads on here for well digging and there are a few implements that can be used without heavy equipment to dig a well quite cheaply. ;)

Water water everywhere.  8)

Nice drill Jim. 

[slowzuki]

Sorry TW, don't get too frustrated.  Turning a large diameter metal cutting hole saw is a similar load and can bind up the same as drilling big holes in timbers.  I injured my hand trying it with a non-clutched drill on this past weekend.

I saw recently some cheap chinese drill presses for 60$ that looked like they could be fitted with an auger and a cheap fan speed control.

Did I explain something wrong?

I plan for drilling 1 1/2" diameter holes in LOGS. I need a faster way to make the pegholes when doing logbuilding. The T-auger is too slow and the big milwaukee and makita drills are too expensive.
Power tools are not for free over here.


There is no arthesian water in our pine nor spruce ;D ;D Is it THAT wet in America? ;D ;D

In fact I did not know that you use something called "auger" for drilling wells. I have never heard of anybody drilling wells without big special machinery that can drill through stone.
Our soil is very rocky so I guess it would bend any of your augers in the first two metres.

[TW]

Slowzuki
Thanks for the warning.

Jim Rogers
I have never seen one of those. I know they exist in America.

You others
The warning sets of an idea.
I could connect the bit to the shaft by means of two short pipes fitting one into the other. One would be welded to the shaft and the other to the shank of the bit. Through those pipes I would drill a hole. In that hole I would have a wooden peg of hardwood. When the drill jams the peg would break and the machine spin free. I could use small diameter pegs in the beginning and widen the hole for bigger pegs until they barely resist the torque.
That system would save the cost of a chuck as well.

Would it work. Critisism please.

[TW]

Here comes a scetch of a section of the system I tried to describe.



The power comes from above in the picture and goes to below

[Greg]

Does this help?

1 1/2" inch x 13" spade bit:

Click here for link to spade bit
Greg

[beenthere]

TW
The idea you have should work, and is similar to a shear pin used on a power train. With a pin rotating, one would want to be real careful to not get clothing tangled in the pin, wrapping it up quickly and doing some body damage.

If finding a power drill with an adjustable clutch is not possible, and machining/fabricating this approach is possible, then we'd be interested in how it works out for you.

[TW]

Greg
I have tested a slightly smaller spade bit but it did not work. I do often drill more than 1" straight down and the chips do not find their way out of the hole.

Beenthere
Of cause I can chop of the pin smooth with the pipe. I did not think of that. Maybe I have to make a guard out of some aluminium scraps.


I have a neighbour who is partowner of a matal lathe and he turns any parts for me really cheap because I help him with his house renovation really cheap.
I will think about this for a while.

The factory made machines cost more than two weeks pay so they are not an option. They do sell Milwaukee and Makita and Dewalt big drills here too but I am too poor. In general you can take the prize in USA times 2 to 4 and get the prize for a similar power tool in Finland.
We have 230 volt 50 hertz so private import is not an option. Second hand ones turn up now and then but they are usually 40 to 50 years old and used a lot and still expensive. There was a factory in Helsinki who made theese big drills in the 50-ies.

I am still open to critisism. I often critisize things very openly and directly so I expect the same kind of critical evaluation back.

[Raphael]

  One drawback I see to the shear pin idea is that no two logs are the same, you may need a whole assortment of pins to deal with different densities of wood.  You'll also want variable speed control, the jerk going from a dead stop to full on will probably shear off a pin that's otherwise strong enough.
  What is the density of the logs you work with there?  I've been thinking along the lines of EWP but Jim's comments about auger speed got me thinking and he's right 50 rpm could destroy a 1.5" auger in the other woods I've bored except spruce.


  That Ajax boring machine in Jim's post (top picture) has one really nice design feature, aside from not being restricted by available current.  ;)
  The chuck is open all the way through so it can take the bit from many T-Augers without having to cut them down, really handy when boring deeper than the clearance under the chuck.  Though going deeper than the flutes on the auger will evenually cause a chip jamb.  I'm wondering how much shipping would be to get it there.

  A way to get shipping costs down would be to ship only the metal portions of a machine and fabricate the wood portions there, I've seen several that the wood was degraded but still had solid castings.  A Snell, Swan, or Sweet, models like the second picture in Jim's post, have less iron and steel (especially the Snell and Swan fixed machines).

[TW]

I did not think of that jerk when starting. Otherwise it may be possible to beef up the shear pin until it barely lasts in ordinary use but that jerk would still break it. Thanks for proving me wrong before I spent any money.

We use pine and spruce for logbuilding. Pine weighs 480 kg pr cubic metre and spruce 440 kg per cubic metre. Spruce has very hard knots. I cannot recalculate it to imperial units because I do not know which unit you use.

I can choose to use either a cut of old auger or use a modern ship auger depending on which one is more suitable. I have both kinds of bits in store already.

It should be a possible solution to make a boring machine or buy one without wood from abroad. I just cannot see the big gain compared to the T-auger.

Two other logbuilders I have talked with use big electrical machines that run at about 150 and 250 rpm. They have both been old machines with no adjustable clutch nor any safety devices. My common sense tells that slower is safer and the parts I have on hand are considerably slower. I know I do it at my own risk. I do also have another slower gearbox on hand. It runs at 46 rpm.

I cannot still understand the rpm issue fully.

[Jim_Rogers]

I could give you a price quote for shipping a boring machine to Finland, if I had your postal code.
Can you give that to me?

Bore a hole with a t-handle auger and count how many full turns you make in a minute.
I'll bore the same size hole, the same depth with a boring machine and I'll tell you how many seconds (or minutes) it took me......

Jim Rogers

[Don P]

The clutches on mine have slipped at 75 ft lbs. Wood is unpredictable as a shear pin, but some metal dowel of some diameter will give you a reliable shear. It might be something like brass brazing rod. You could test with a torque wrench and a mocked up sample if you wanted precise, but the goal is to have it shear just below your strength. My clutches go off often, the time loss could eat up any savings in initial cost. I do see the problem though, the clutched drill costs me about 1/2 weeks pay.

[john_boylan]

Any way to rig an electric motor up with pulleys and a belt that would slip at the appropriate moment?

John

[Raphael]

It should be a possible solution to make a boring machine or buy one without wood from abroad. I just cannot see the big gain compared to the T-auger.

I cannot still understand the rpm issue fully.

There are two big advantages to the boring machine:
1:  The frame of the machine keeps the auger properly oriented so you can devote more energy and attention to powering the auger.
2:  With a T auger you need to swap your hands on the handles roughly every 180° of rotation so there are times the T-auger is at rest.  With a boring machine you are applying continous force to the auger so it's never at rest and therefore inherently faster.  You also develop a cadance with the machine much like riding a bicycle.

The rpm issue is really a heat issue, at high rpm the heat of friction can build up quickly causing an auger to expand and jamb against the sides of the hole potentially damaging (usually warping) the auger.  Ship augers with their open center design are the most prone to distortion from over heating.  Solid center augers (Irwin pattern) are probably the most rugged but don't clear chips as well as the smooth continuous flutes (Jennings pattern) found on boring machine bits and T-augers.

  According to the values used by the forum calculators (pounds per cubic foot) our pine and spruce are a little heavier than the numbers you gave.  EWP  560 kg / cubic meter, Sitka Spruce 528  kg / cubic meter, was that for green?  In green pine or spruce you should be able to crank along at a pretty good pace with out much heat.  But I've met a few of those spruce knots, finding one of them would jerk a shear pin significantly. ;)

[TW]

My density values were for airdried wood. Halfways dried logs are of cause heavier.