Tugger Winches

KiwiCharlie · November 25, 2002, 07:57:05 PM

G'day Guys,

Does anyone use the tugger style winch for moving around large logs?? Such as the Tirfor, Super Til etc? Any do's or donts? I guess if you use log loaders or tractors then you wouldnt have a need for one, but someone may use them!!
Heres a couple of links to show the type of winch Im on about.

http://www.tractel.com/Products/lift&materialshandling/hoists/tirfor/tirforrange.htm

http://www.pwbanchor.com.au/winches.html

Cheers
Charlie.

Tom · November 25, 2002, 08:59:09 PM

Looks kinda like a "come-along". I've used a come-along in a pinch. they are handy, move a fair amount of weight but sure are slow..

http://www.cvfsupplycompany.com/hanpowpulcom.html

ADfields · November 26, 2002, 12:45:03 AM

I have used winches all my life but I cant see what that is. It must be called by a diferant name over hear.
Andy

Minnesota_boy · November 26, 2002, 06:58:38 AM

I use "tugger winches" all the time, like the one pictured here on Maasdam's site.

http://www.maasdam.com/catalog/sections.html

They are slow, but sometimes that is what you need for control. If my electric winch is not available and the log is too heavy to roll with my cant hook or peavey, I'll run a chain from the mill under the log and use the winch on crosshaul to load the log. If the log is too far endways and too heavy to manhandle, I use the "tuger" (We call them come-alongs) to pull it where I want. I've even used them to reverse crosshaul, to retrieve a log that went over the mill when I forgot to put the log stops up. :

I like to think that, however slow they are, they are still faster than getting more help (I work alone) and anyway, that big log will take me 30 to 60 minutes to saw and stack, so what's a couple more minutes.

Weekend_Sawyer · November 26, 2002, 09:47:31 AM

I have 2 of these rated at 5 tons each. I used to use them alot. Now that I have more tractors, a backhoe and a skid steer they havn't been used in a while.

They are like a come-along but the cable doesn't coil up on a spool it just comes out the back so you can use any length cable.

And they will work you!

KiwiCharlie · November 26, 2002, 02:10:24 PM

G'day Guys,

Yes they could be known as come-alongs, but I like the way, as W_Sawyer says, the wire rope just passes thru on these versions, so theres no need to take bites at it. Just winch it the whole 20 metres at once!!

Phew! Pretty expensive compared to the come-alongs, but solid. The 5t capacity models wiegh in at 30 odd kg!

While were on the subject of moving heavy things, does anyone know of a good reference for ratios, fulcrums, pivots and the like. Or even what would you call the 'art' of ratios, fulcrums and pivots!!
Cheers
Charlie.

ADfields · November 26, 2002, 03:27:01 PM

I would like a beter look at one of them, sounds beter than a Come-a-long to me!

KiwiCharlie
Like I have sead I worked all my life in heavy truck recovery (towing) and know a bit about winching things from that. I will give you a websight that will have all kinds of "towing" stuff in it but it's the best place to find good info for winching aney thing. In recovery we drag, spin, flip, roll and lift things and that is the info you need, crane operators onley lift and dont deal with all the other things. Crane businesses call heavy towing businesses to winch things around for them so thay can get at them for a lift all the time.

World of Recovery E-book that has all the winching formulas you would need in loging and a hole lot more! You go to the chapter from this page and from the first page of the chapter use the "next" and "Back" links at the botom of the page to turn the page.
http://www.wreckmaster.com/World/index.htm

The winching game. This is a game that you can download and use the formulas of winching to play it to help you get it set in your head.
http://www.wreckmaster.com/products4.htm

Towers are as in love with ther work as sawmill people!
I hope this stuff helps you and is not an info overload.

KiwiCharlie, by the way, did you ever get that stuff I sent down?
Andy

Bro. Noble · November 26, 2002, 07:24:02 PM

Kiwi C,

The 'Art' of pivots, fulcrums, etc would be real close to the 'science' of Physics. Woodmills could probably recommend a text.

I use a come-a-long for stretching fence wire and pulling calves.

Noble

KiwiCharlie · November 26, 2002, 07:43:36 PM

G'day Andy,

Thanks a bunch for the links! Theres a whole lot of great info there.

I wouldnt have thought to search towing and recovery. That site will keep me busy for a fair while! ;D Thanks again.
This links has a small picture of a cutaway winch of the style Im talking about. Look for "HONKO"- SUPER TIL WIRE ROPE WINCH on that page.

http://www.feicjoe.com/eng/feic_hand.html

They are a great idea. The larger ones are rated to lift 3.2t and drag 5t. They use a 16mm wire rope.

As for the stuff you sent, no sign of it yet, but it will arrive. The post system can be a bit slow getting here. Maybe the horse drowned??.........
Cheers
Charlie.

KiwiCharlie · November 26, 2002, 07:50:33 PM

G'day Noble,

Thanks for that. I did wonder if it was a specialised science, as Physics encompasses a lot! Come on Woodmills. Maybe I should let him know his names come up, or he may not find the thread!
Speaking of pulling calves, I would never have believed how far a cows neck will stretch (without breaking) as you pull it out of a bog, but I saw it with my own eyes.

And to think its a recommended recovery technique too!!
Cheers
Charlie.

ADfields · November 27, 2002, 12:21:10 AM

That looks like a clockworks

It would be way beter than a Come-a-long as the drum will never fill up and reduce your power. Also looks like it will make a pull of however long the rope is without reseting it but I saw 20M kicked around like that is it's limet, is that true?

Hear is the top URL for that towing sight.
http://www.wreckmaster.com/
It was founded by Donnie Cruse from Canada back about 1990. This summer Donnie, his wife and kids were ALL killed at ther home by his kids X-boyfrend befor he killed himself. :'( Thay had over 1000 tow trucks go to Canada and show respct and towers from all over the world even down under.
Andy

KiwiCharlie · November 27, 2002, 08:41:16 AM

G'day Andy,

Thanks for the links. I just emailed them to see if I can get a copy of the book sent to me down here!

I think 20m of pulling in one go on a tugger would probably be enough for one day! ;) :D Do the rest tommorrow, if your arms still work!
You are only limited by the length of your cable, and if youve got arms like a gorilla, your set to go!

Such a tragedy to hear the story you related.
Cheers
Charlie.

woodmills1 · November 27, 2002, 09:42:08 AM

as far as a text for just fulcrums and stuff,I don't know of one but it is simple. the longer the side you work on and the shorter the other side the better. thats why cheater bars work. for winches and pulleys again longer input for like come alongs and more ropes on moveable pullys. but seriously with all the hydraulics that are avaliable who does pullys anymore. Machines are used to change either the size, the direction, or the speed of the input force. For situations where size is changed we speak of MA, that is mechanical advantage, which is the ratio the input length to the output length. so for a wheelbarrow MA would be the length of the handles divided by the length to the center of the load. something like 2 or 3 to one for most wheelbarrows. for a 3/4 box wrench it would be the distance from the center of the bolt to where your hand is divided by half of the bolt heads width. The higher the MA the more your input force gets multiplied, but the farther you must push to get the job done. Machines don't create energy or work, in fact you always do more actual work than gets done due to friction losses and bending or stretching. Think of a ramp, you do more work pushing a box up a ramp than you would just lifting it straight up, but maybe the box is too heavy to lift or the height is too high, so the ramp makes the impossible possible. but remember due to friction you always do more work on the machine than actually gets done. First law of thermodynamics- you can't get something for nothing, there is no such thing as a free lunch. :P as far as motors and hydraulics we would have to start discussing flow rates and piston sizes, so enough for now.

KiwiCharlie · November 30, 2002, 11:01:08 AM

G'day woodmills,

Thanks for the info. Its a facinating subject, and one you could devote a whole bunch of time to! As logs get harder to source, especially natives, a sound knowledge in winching could be helpful for recovering out of inacessable locations.
World of Recovery is proving elusive to find, but sounds like a book worth searching hard for. :P
Cheers
Charlie.

woodmills1 · November 30, 2002, 03:08:46 PM

If I was going to fabricate something to move the occasional log I would look hard at the system on the hydraulic woodmizers, and then try to buil that onto the side of a one ton truck. :P It really is amazing what the loader on my
LT-40 will pick up. Althought there really is no substitute for a log loader, if it was just a log here and there I would try to fab up something like the woodmizer setup.

KiwiCharlie · November 30, 2002, 05:03:55 PM

G'day woodmills,

Now thats an interesting idea. Can anyone post a picture or two of what that log loader on the WM looks like, semi close up??
Cheers
Charlie.

Bro. Noble · December 01, 2002, 02:53:11 AM

Those logtrucks with loading arms on the side are common here and have been for years. They are run by the PTO on the truck transmission. They are called "loggers dreams" which was probably a brand name. Years ago when you referred to a "loggers dream" it was an old winch truck with a heavy boom and winch powered with a separate gas engine----often a modle A Ford engine. They used to winch whole trees up bluffs with those and limb them above.

The side loaders are being replaced with cherry pickers and can be bought cheap. I would guess a grand would buy a real good one. This would include the entire logbed----bunks and remote release uprights on the opposite side of the bed.

Noble