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Author Topic: moisture problem in heated attached garage  (Read 11464 times)

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Offline TexasTimbers

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2006, 03:04:50 PM »
Gary,

I don't want to pound this into the ground, but I know you wouldn't want to leave info which might not be accurate posted either.

Concrete IS pourous.

Please read the links and I am sure you will agree that it is . . . .


"Why do capillaries make concrete porous?

 

Because they are filled with air until water or water vapor comes in contact with them from the ground or the air. They will actually wick moisture from the surrounding environment and deliver it to the top of the concrete slab just underneath flooring materials. There the water, or water vapor when it condenses, attacks flooring adhesives. Capillaries form the transit system for water and water vapor (moisture) migration.

The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Online Furby

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2006, 03:41:57 PM »
Cement is NON porous, concrete IS porous.
Yes, there is cement IN concrete, but concrete itself is porous.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2006, 03:54:25 PM »
Just my insight. ;)

Concrete basements are damp for sure, partly because of stove wood stored in them and partly due to drainage and poor cement work. I've seen water bubble up through concrete in my basement, albeit a thin concrete layer, and usually along cracks or areas where the concrete got crushed by someone  ::) trying to split dry hardwood on the floor for 30 years. I'm not even going to pretend to know concrete, I'm just stating things I've seen happen. In my barn I get water on the floor in the spring and fall, but it comes in through cracks and sometimes leaves a green mold before it dries. My windows in the shop, which is in the barn, always steam up in the cold months and they are single pain. I had plastic on the inside one time, but the sun ate it up and now I have moisture on the windows.

At my uncle's, he had a couple of new windows that broke their seals and they sweat in the cold months, while the others do not. One thing I did learn from a guy who worked with concrete was that it needs to be a certain temp when poured and when it begins to set.  :P He always checked the temp of every load and if it wasn't within a certain threshold it got rejected.  That's the extend of what I know.  :P I hope it don't cause any riffs in here. ::)  candle_smiley

Move'n on.

Offline ely

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2006, 04:04:57 PM »
well, i do know if you put poly under a slab around here it will crack everytime. we always had to saw construction joints into a slab we put a vapor barrier under, and was told that it was to control cracking.
 that being said, the office i am sitting in has a concrete slab and no vapor barrier under it, we did saw the joints in it to control cracking. out in the shop portion it is always dry but in the office where we have the 12x12 floor tiles glued down, we also have the big plastic sheets put down under the desks to roll our chairs around on. and under this plastic water will form and cause quite a mess, but only under the plastic.

 i have also noticed that the slabs with plastic under them will not sweat with the changing weather, the slabs without the plastic will sweat with te changing weather unless it is a house slab. and i have not seen any house slab sweat once the house is finnished.

Offline mike_van

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2006, 04:14:04 PM »
Well, here's another angle - In my basement's a 500 gal  poured concrete cistern, been full of water since '62 - it does not leak - trust me, i live here - i'd kinda know if it leaked.  A crack in a wall of floor will leak, of course. A lot of times whats seen on a wet concrete slab or wall is condensation. Something like if the dewpoint is higher than the surface temp. - water will condense on it - 2 walls of my garage are in the bank, about 4' deep, those humid days of summer, they'll be all wet. Other times of the year, you can get 2" of rain in a day, and they're dry.  
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Offline Gary_C

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2006, 06:42:00 PM »
kevjay

There are some assertions that are accepted as facts, even in scientific, engineering, and construction work, even though they are not absolutely true.

One is that the earth is round, nonwithstanding the claims of the Flat Earth Society. That assertion is not completely true as the earth bulges slightly at the equator. Also if it was perfectly round you should be able to fly from New York to LA at 5000 ft elevation without hitting anything.

Another is that liquids are incompressible. That is accepted as true in all scientific and engineering work, but liquids can be compressed slightly at very high pressures.

Another is that water expands when heated and shrinks when cooled. That does not apply when water freezes.

Another is that concrete is one of best non porous construction materials. As you have pointed out and I have agreed, that claim is not absolutely true. However it is still used in structures like holding tanks and dams where it is absolutely essential to use a material that is non porous.

So for the question posed by sbishop about his garage and the moisture present, that concrete floor can be considered non porous.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline TexasTimbers

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2006, 08:08:54 PM »
I was simply trying to stay within the confines of the issue.

I think that it is pointless to continue beating it to death so I will concede that the earth is an oblate spheroid - you are right about that.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Online Furby

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2006, 08:20:16 PM »
Sorry Gary, I don't agree.
Simple definitions of porous:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aporous

If you have ever busted open a piece of concrete, you would have seen the pores.
Thus concrete is porous, no way around it.
Heck, by definition, metal can be porous and still hold water.

Now in the case of Mike's cistern, I'd be willing to bet that it has been hand finished with cement.
I had several such cisterns, mine were made of brick with lining of cement that held in the water.

I just gotta point out that they call the Earth round, not "perfectly" round.
Liquids under extreme pressure compress only because the small amount of oxygen they contain is squeezed out.
Water shrinks when cooled, once it starts to become ice, and it changes from a liquid to a solid..... it's no longer water.

Offline wiam

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2006, 08:56:25 PM »
I have been inside of a hydro dam.  Do not try to tell me that concrete is nonpourous.  The water just runs through that place.  Kind of freaky at more than 100' below grade.

Will

Offline bitternut

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2006, 09:05:26 PM »
I have a concrete floor in my garage that has no insulation under it. It sweats like crazy every spring when the weather starts warming up. My barn also has a concrete floor and it never sweats. It has 2" of rigid foam under it. I once owned a house that had a cistern with a block wall and cement waterproofing. Never leaked a drop or showed any condensation. Don't know what this proves but just thought I would add my experiences with concrete products and moisture.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2006, 09:23:09 PM »
Mr Bishop, You could search the knowledge base of the Cement Association of Canada.

http://www.cement.ca/cement.nsf
Move'n on.

Offline Gary_C

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2006, 09:36:54 PM »
Furby

You win!  ;D

My truck is loaded and ready to head north on I-35. I think the Burlman is getting anxious for me to get done and I can't pick up any wood here. I just hope that all that water that soaked into the concrete on I-35 does not freeze tonight as it may expand and break up the concrete. If it does, I may have to walk home for Christmas.   :(

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Offline bitternut

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2006, 06:11:27 AM »
Don't worry Gary we coat the roads in the North with salt every winter so that they don't freeze.  :D  :D

Offline mike_van

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2006, 06:29:40 AM »
Furby, i 've seen the little holes in the concrete, they call it "air entrained"  It make it tougher they say, more resistant to chipping, etc. out in the weather. I don't know that the holes connect though? Wouldn't seem to be very strong if they did. Concrete you mix yourself won't have these holes unless you add this "air entraining" stuff -  So, here's another odd one - Every rock & boulder i've ever split is wet inside - damp anyway, how did that get in there? 
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2006, 08:05:58 AM »
Yes, on that site I posted, if you go into the knowledge base there is information on it. Select from the drop down list in there.
Here's a few snippets I reamed from the site:

concerning air entrained concrete
Air content decreases with temperature

More air, less strength

More water, less strength when setting

Improves workability

Requires less water than non air entrained cement

Improves freeze/thaw resistance

Those bubbles and air voids in concrete are from entrapped air, some mixtures actually repel water (anionicly charges)

Water tightness depends on the amount of water in the cement when mixing and curing.

Other snippets:
"Sound, dense concrete made with a water-cementing materials ratio of less than 0.50 by mass will be watertight if it is properly placed and cured."

"Dampproofing admixtures are sometimes used to reduce the transmission of moisture through concrete that is in contact with water or damp earth. Many so-called dampproofers are not effective, especially when used in concretes that are in contact with water under pressure."

"The amount of water that will evaporate in air at 50% relative humidity is about 1/2% to 3% of the mass of the concrete, depending on initial water content of the concrete, absorption characteristics of the aggregates, and size of the structure. The absorption of fly-ash concrete is about the same as concrete without ash, although some ashes can reduce absorption by 20% or more."
Move'n on.

Offline Ironwood

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2006, 08:22:38 PM »
Boy you guys are a real ball!! Let's seee........... I assert that .......
 
Oh, we don't need anything else to get your ire's up.

             Reid
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2006, 08:44:28 PM »
If I was gonna call to ask, I'de talk with the guy whose business it is to supply concrete to the building contractors. Some contractors know about concrete (usually trained engineers), but a lot don't and I have lots of concrete evidence to prove it.  ;D  :D :D :D
Move'n on.

Online Furby

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2006, 09:19:11 PM »
Like that wall of yours Donk? ;) ;D

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2006, 07:23:23 AM »
Yip, along with the garage floor.  ::)
Move'n on.

Offline slowzuki

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Re: moisture problem in heated attached garage
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2006, 09:08:54 AM »
Back to the garage problem, your drywalling and car snow is bringing in fair amounts of vapour and even you are by breathing and opening the door to your house.  The house are is warm and wet compared to the garage.  Swampys church is having moisture from the people breathing condense on the windows.

The windows are acting as dehumidifiers since they are the coldest objects in the room.

Options to fix the problem:
1. Turn the heat up to match the house - this would help but not completely cure the problem.
2. Install heat recovery air exchanger - expensive since you are only heating to 5 C so you are not trying to save much heat
3. Install regular air exchanger - this is basically an open window with fan.  Can be hooked up to a humidistat to regulate humidity
4. Run a dehumidifier - they don't work efficiently near freezing temps.

The goals you have to achieve is dump moisture out of your garage or make it hotter so the air can store a lot more moisture.  Even making it hotter will only work so far, mostly it helps by driving the leakage of air through the walls much stronger resulting in more air exchange.


These solutions don't always work the same in a basement in the summer in NB because the air is really wet out side and the basement is really cold.  If you put more outside air into a basement during summer more water will condense out of it.  In a basement here you have to dehumidify or use a heat recovery ventilator that can use the cold air leaving the basement to dehumidify the warm wet air coming in.  The other option is to heat the basement even in the summer, works best with infloor heating.


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