Woodmizer Sawdust Burner . . . . .

[farmerdoug]

Bioman,

If you get 50lbs per hour with 3 HP and a LT40/70 gets an 100lbs per hour with 40+HP then I guess you are doing great.  It would be interesting to test it with a larger motor to see what the improvement of production would be.

Farmerdoug

[Bioman]

I'm in Indy for meetings today.  I'll respond later tonight or tomorrow.

[ElectricAl]

Bioman,

How will this machine handle the bark and dust that accumulates under the mill?

Or will a different machine have to be developed to deal with the mess?



ElectricAl

[Bioman]

ElectricAL

The plan is that anything that will fit in the hopper will be ground to dust.  I'm trying to get some paper chips to them now for testing.  I'll try the floor sweepings too.

[Bioman]

Bioman,

If you get 50lbs per hour with 3 HP and a LT40/70 gets an 100lbs per hour with 40+HP then I guess you are doing great. It would be interesting to test it with a larger motor to see what the improvement of production would be.

Farmerdoug

I think it is a good beginning.  I'm hoping to make it more of a self feeder  in the future.  Engineering time is at a premium for us right now and this project is taking back seat to a few of the bigger ones.  More hp and modified hopper / feed angle are next on the list.

[Bioman]

Scott,

Have you conceder using VFD/VSDs instead of trying to figure out the gearing. I've used several from .5 hp to 600hp and never had any problems. I loved the infinite speed control for controlling everything from air pressure in AC ducts to pumping water.

Also, while I was at the GovEnergy show in New Orleans, I bumped into some guys from the Department of Energy (DOE) biomass lab in Morgantown WV. They were very interested in your product. I told them to go to the Wood Mizer web site and look for the Bio Mizer.

When I find the time in the office, I will forward you're their info and a small CD ROM I picked up at the show.

Bruce

Yes we have and we use them on the current Bio-Mizers.  The guys at our NP plant don't have that technology just laying around so they grabbed a small motor per our specs and gave it a try.   We'll apply variable drives and HP to the prototype when we get a chance to work on it here in KY. 

[LT40HDD51]

Hi Scott. You guys have been busy  ;D. Weve been flat-out too, this is the first time Ive checked in here since I saw you...

That grinder sure looks promising, you guys need to get it to Kentucky and get your hands on it  ;D.

I was thinking of an infeed track kind of like what you have on the multiheads or the SHR, a segmented metal type, and a C-shaped piece on the hind end to push the end of the slab and keep it from kicking up. I assume it wouldnt be able to grind the whole thing, was thinking that the small piece of slab at the end would kick out under the unit. Then the track could reset back for another one, and when the operator was ready he could load another one and start the cycle again. Im thinking of having it running all day while youre sawing, and be fast enough to handle 4 slabs per log on average.

You mentioned bark chips and floor sweepings. Are you thinking about having it grind whole slabs and have a hopper of some kind you can add to grind the finer stuff? How about grinding large chips? When we live-saw most of our softwoods and put everything through the edger, we wind up with a huge heap of edgings in a few days. Im thinking that our big ol' 12" chipper would be the ticket to break them down in a hurry, if there isnt a way to feed the edgings into your grinder in one piece. As was said way back somewhere at the start of this thread, grinding chips to dust would be great because of the cheap technology already available to make wood into chips...

[Bioman]

Yes, we've been busy.  The show machine made it back from the tour and now we're building a new rev model for the Indy show.  This one will be hydronic with radiators.  We may make another air-to-air as there has been a lot of interest in it too.

We've been too busy to pursue the grinder, but I hope that changes soon.  I want to get it back to KY so I can work on it after hours. 

And yes, we're thinking about a machine that will do both the slab and floor sweepings / chips.  If you look close at the video you can see the hopper that is supposed to handle the small chips.  To my knowledge they haven't tried chips or sweepings yet.  I like the idea of chips also because you can store them in large piles (wet) and grind when needed and then store it to dry.

I guess the big question is how productive does it really have to be and how much money are people willing to pay for it?  If dust requirements are 5-10 lbs an hour, how much do we need to design for and at what price?  I agree that it would be nice to handle all the slabs from the operation on a daily basis, but i'm afraid the hp requirement is going to be prohibitive.

Any thoughts from you guys?

[Bioman]

Here's another idea we've been kicking around - maybe it needs its own thread though...

Ethanol - the primary reason it isn't a viable project without subsidies is because of cost of heat required.  I'm sure these numbers can be debated, but generally it takes 1 gallon of gas to make 1.3 gallons of ethanol.  Gas has a BTU value of 131000 BTU/gal and Ethanol is 77000 BTU/gal.  There is a net loss of 54000 BTU/gal per gallon of Ethanol produced.  Also required is the crushed corn and 4 gallons of water.  It's pretty easy to see why it can be hard to justify making it - thus all the debate over it's virtues.

I'm using the following info to base our new ideas on:

- One acre of a corn yields approx 3.5 tons of grain AND 3.5 tons of stover (stalk, leaf, cob, shank, and husk).
- An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol.
- 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol
- the BTU value of 3.5 tons of stover at 7000 BTUs/lb is 49,000,000 BTU's (ash content is higher than sawdust so the heat value/lb is less)
- 42,968,000 BTUs are required to convert the one acre of corn to ethanol
- if you ran the still 24/7 the heat requirement is 60,000 BTU/hr/acre

What if -

- There was a burner that would burn Bio-dust efficiently to use as your heat source instead of gas?    ;)
- You had enough stover from your harvest to produce the required heat for distillation? (and then some)
- There was a small still option sized to match the heat output of the burner available (150,000 or 1 million) BTUfor making your own ethanol?

A 150,000 BTU burner could handle 24+ acres/year and a 1,000,000 BTU burner could handle over 175 acres.  In both cases, a lot of the condensation heat is recoverable for other applications.  The potential production is 7872 gallons and 57,400 gallons respectively.  I don't know what ethanol is selling for, but it appears there is another economic engine waiting to start here.

Of course I may be missing something, and if I am I'm sure I'm about to be corrected.  Any debate here?

[farmerdoug]

Will you be able to produce ethanol dry enough for fuel use?  I am not sure what ethanol production involves.  Sounds like another great idea you have here. 

I have to say I love your generator idea too.  Hope you can make that one work.

Farmerdoug

[Ianab]

I dont see why it cant work - no laws of physics are being broken.

You should be able to recover a lot of the heat from the condensing part of the process and the waste wort and use it to preheat the next batch into the still. Even if you only recover 1/2 the energy it still makes your numbers a whole heap better.

The quality of the ethanol produced (dryness and other factors) depends on the design of the distillation tower, a taller tower with more surface area should give a purer end product. My simple still only produces about 70% alc, but a better design and running the product through twice can achieve 98% purity. The 70% is fine if you are going to water it down into vodka, but you will want the 98% for running your vehicle on.

Note.. running a still for personal use is legal in NZ (just dont get caught selling the stuff)

Cheers

Ian

[Bioman]

According to the guy I'm working with, molecular sieves with 4 angstrom pore size which absorb water, but not ethanol will be required to get the last 5% or so.  They can be be dried out using hot air and reused. 

Looking forward to working on this little project too.

[Don P]

I'm no economist but as we gear up ethanol we are driving up costs in unforseen ways.
Look at the products in the grocery store that don't contain corn in one form or another. Put both products in a basket then look at the rest of the store, do we want to drive up the cost of all those products? Do we want Chinese milk at breakfast? There is other energy around but we tend to pick the low fruit. (edit) I think we can safely call all that one person's opinion 

Can a transport grade liquid fuel be produced from and by wood waste using the heat from the biomizer? Could it pyrolize and then condense gasses from say rough chopped slabs and yield lump charcoal and liquid fuel? Not even sure any of that works, a blissful ignorance of the chemistry involved.

[Faron]

I guess I am a little amused at the concern shown for the higher corn prices. At one point in the early '70s corn was $3.00 per bushel.  This time of year two years ago corn was about $1.98.  Locally this week corn was $3.35.  Now, tell me again ethanol has pushed the price of corn too high.  The cattle industry particuarly utilizes the by products from ethanol plants as feed, resulting in lower feed costs. Hogs and poultry can't utilize it as well, but research is being done in that direction.  Food is an afterthought for most Americans.  We expect it to be there, and we want it cheap, so we can spend our money on our toys.  Far as I am concerned it won't hurt us to spend a little on food and a little less on cars, boats, big houses  and swiming pools.

[Norm]

There was an interesting story about the premise that higher corn prices caused higher prices at the store. Turns out that the biggest culprit behind higher food prices was higher energy costs and higher labor costs. So as a hobby farmer I think all you guys should decrease your wages just as much as you'd like me to decrease the price I get for corn. :D

What I really want to know is if this burner is going to be on sale in time for the heating season this year?

[Fla._Deadheader]

Everyone is concerned with corn, yet, it's one of the worst crops for alcohol production  : ??? ???

[Don P]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to sidetrack a great thread. Obviously you all have given it more thought than me. Lets burn more dust 

[Bioman]

There was an interesting story about the premise that higher corn prices caused higher prices at the store. Turns out that the biggest culprit behind higher food prices was higher energy costs and higher labor costs. So as a hobby farmer I think all you guys should decrease your wages just as much as you'd like me to decrease the price I get for corn. :D

What I really want to know is if this burner is going to be on sale in time for the heating season this year?

Norm,

We're going to release approx 25 units for testing this year.  Those who have signed up with us are going to receive a lottery type application for those who want to be part of the test program.  We've just hired a gal who starts tomorrow, and this is the first job on her list. 

We're staying true to the plan of only releasing the product when we know it is ready, and we can't do that until we've been through one winter of testing.

We're going to build a couple of pilot units in September and start building 2/week in November.  If all goes like it looks like it is going to we can possibly speed things up.

[Bioman]

Don,

I have a lot to learn yet, but I understand the technology for breaking down wood products and grasses into alcohol is still not as efficient as making ethanol with corn.  There is a lot of research into making bacteria to break these products down, but it obviously isn't ready for the mainstream yet.  One known concern is the bacteria could be released into the ground and wreak havoc on crops. 

[Bioman]

I also wonder what this technology is going to do to the guys that currently use dust and chips that are used to getting it at $0-20/ton.  If we generate a market for the same fuel at $100/ton or more, there is going to be a shift in the economic landscape.  This includes the corn market or any other market that is part of the alternative energy scheme.

Ultimately economy drives us all.  We will all tend to migrate toward the cheapest solution or one that makes us money. 

[Norm]

Thanks bioman. I understand needing a complete winter of testing to iron out any kinks. I'll just keep growing my stash of sawdust until their released.

Don I wasn't meaning to give you a hard time it's just that I'm a little protective of our main industry here. Keep in mind I don't think I've ever given anything a lot of thought. Why just today while backing my big mower into the dogs kennel to mow Patty asked if I was aware of the wire in there. Jeez hunny I know right where we buried the new power line, quit mothering me. Moments later I hit the bundle of overhead wire the electricians had hid in the weeds after taking it down.

Her look said it all. :D

[big_sid]

What do ya mean signed up, is that everyone that has inquired, or signed something at one of the shows? I inquired about one way back, I knew about the burner before the news was released,I am still very interested in the burner, and would like to be in the drawing to test one.

[Bioman]

Signed up means your name is in the Bio-Mizer database (not to be confused with the large Wood-Mizer mailing list).  Unless you signed up at a show, called in or signed up via the web, you are probably not on the list.

[Don P]

Hi Norm,
No problems, I had been tuned in to public radio earlier in the day, the latest influence on my "deep thinking" at that moment. I'll have a whole other opinion by tomorrow morning  :D

My comment on charcoal making with it was just a thought based on the comments about idle time inefficiency in one potential setup, it could give it something to do when a kiln isn't calling for heat, and something to do with slabs. If the woodgas from that operation could be used also then its one more recovery. I was hoping there is a way to "bottle" it but I've got my doubts. I'm not sure where methanol, rather than cellulosic ethanol, comes from though?

[Bioman]

Don, check out the Bio-Max link in this forum.  This machine does what you are describing.