Bolted timber frame construction instructions wanted.

[Kevin K]

Pardon me for the rant...

In my opinion, that link is on par with this product.
http://www.springfieldindustries.ca/products/polytimber/polytimber.html
Nothing like cheapening a craft.

I've had a local timber framer price out a design I've come up with (for an addition to our house).
The timbers are going to cost me about $17,000 CDN.
Were I to replace the timbers with I-joists & trusses, I'd look at saving about $12,000 CDN.



I could stick frame it myself, but I want a building that will reflect the talents and passion of the craftsman who carved it.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone, as that is not my intention.

Welcome to the Forum Kevin K. and Jim Mc Dade.

It is one thing to want to maintain traditional craftsmanship on your house. I understand and totally agree.  However a 30x60 utility building is something totally different.  In the world of big box store pole buildings, something that employs heavy wood timbers yet is quick to assemble and economical could fit nicely into the existing market. Getting someone to spend an extra 50% to 100% over the cost of a traditional pole building is often times possible if the end product is significantly nicer. Getting someone to pony up 150/sq. ft. on a 30x60 outbuilding is another thing entirely.   

I can not say in front of my Kids or in Church any of the words that came out of my mouth when I saw Kevin K's link. There is someone out there that has that in their house thinking "boy that looks good" :

Thanks for the warm welcome guys.

I agree 100% about using the timberlinx connectors for large utility buildings. Ideal application, but trying to pass that off as an authentic timber frame makes me squirm. As for the poly timbers  - I guess there is a buyer for everything.

Great forum, glad I found it.

[Raider Bill]

I still like that heavy black plate with big silver bolts in real wood look!
As far as the laminated wood, never! I'm having a hard time swallowing that I may have to use something similar for floor joists and supports.

I really wish I had the time to learn the timbersmith art, maybe someday.
Just ordered Timber framing for the rest of us to add to the reading list.

[Don P]

I figure taste is an individual thing and since mine is all in my mouth, I like em all. My dad was doing steel plates and glulams in the early 70's after fighting shrinkage problems and callbacks with sawn heavy timber for some years. His switch was in response to customer preference, everyone has their own view. Our house had bolted sawn timbers, welded plates for exposed valleys and ridges.  As far as I'm concerned its all good, I don't recall Bibby asking for decorating advice  : :D.

I remembered coming across this awhile back, good stuff and the price is right.
http://www.awc.org/pdf/wcd5.pdf

Some related info is on the index page;
http://www.awc.org/Publications/WCD/index.html

[thurlow]

I don't recall Bibby asking for decorating advice  : :D.

I doubt that what Bibby (or anyone else) asked for has any bearing on what kind of advice he might get.  ;D

[TexasTimbers]

Well I have used the Timberlinx and I love them. I am usually somewhat of a purist in most endeavors but the Timberlinx enable you to accomplish a mix of both learning/sharpening your timber framing skills but cutting as many, or as few traditional pegged joints in a bent/project as you want, and using a percentage of T'linx joints to dramatically speed things up during the learning curve. 
Even using the T'linx joints requires as much accuracy in cutting your housings and shoulders and this is good practice for your traditonal joints.

I repeat. I LOVE my timberlinx connectors.

[Bibbyman]

I kind of thought this was a pretty slow/ laid-back section on the Forum and I'd be lucky to get a reply!  I sure didn't figure on all the conversation. You guys are kind of passionate about you're timber framing.

Mary ordered up a used copy of "Timber Framing for the rest of us" from Barnes and Noble.   :P

This is just one of those idle hands on a cold day thoughts.  We may or may not build another building.  If we do... hard to know how we do it.  When I started talking bolted beam, Mary commented,  "I just figured we'd build it like we've built the otheres."

[Raider Bill]

I wonder what the strength differance is if any between a frame that has been cut out in the classic way vs, plated and bolted or timberlinx.

[TexasTimbers]

Timberlinx claims to have documentation from independent labs showing higher shear and other values.
All I know it man it sure does speed things up.

I think after you become proficient the cost of the connectors will no longer represent the value in time savings that they do when you are first learning and taking forever cutting traditional joints, but at first they do at least for me.

[Raphael]

  We worked on a project with a P&B builder back in '89, he had custom steel plates made up for some of his joinery, to bad he didn't patent them. His big concern was timber shrinkage, no piece of steel contacted more than two sides of a timber (or two timbers) and almost everything he worked with was designed to be retightened after the timbers shrank. I think this is one advantage Timberlinx has over socket systems.

[scgargoyle]

I got all the literature from Timberlinx recently. They have upgraded all their engineering data to current standards. From what I could see, the timberlinx joints are about 5 times stronger than traditional mortise and tenon joints that were tested at the same time. One thing I like is that you are removing a lot less wood (an 1-1/8" hole) w/ timberlinx than w/ traditional joinery. All that being said, most of the traditional timber frames I have seen are so over-sized, that strength doesn't seem to be an issue. Actually, one of the books I have even says that the timbers are so massive so that you have enough wood left over after cutting the joinery. If I won the lottery, I would head up to my property tomorrow, and fell my own trees, hew the timbers, and build the entire house mortise and tenon. Since I don't buy lottery tix (it's tax on the stupid), I'll have to find ways to speed up the process: sawn timbers and timberlinx.

[Jayson]

I think there is a book published about the Civilian Corps structures? I remember it had lots of bolting and steel in it. And they made some beautiful buildings. If no one hear knows the title pm me and I will make some calls if you like. I am a traditional joint diehard but I have to eat. I will be using timberlinx for the first time in the next couple of weeks. If you want to know how they worked give me a shout.

[Don P]

Take a camera Jayson  ;)

I've seen someone selling the CCC book but can't remember where  ???

This link shows some more connector ideas, starting about page 5;
http://www.trusjoist.com/PDFFiles/1200.pdf

[Raphael]

I've seen someone selling the CCC book but can't remember where  ???

Book store at the Eastern Conferance perhaps?  I almost bought it.

[Jayson]

The joinery with steel plates is at least as critcal as it is traditionally. There is a bit of forgiveness with wooden pegs. They can bend and move to a degree. So if your holes are not straight they will bend and still fill the void. You can even use bowed pegs(that are sound of coarse) to assist in draw boring. You don't have that luxury with metal bolts. That industrial look is nice and has certainly been used all over the world but fitting plates onto large timbers(at least in my experience which is limited) require just as much consideration as traditional joinery. The project I am thinking of involved plates and through bolts. The timbers were 12 inches thick explaining the difficultly of obtaining straight through holes. I do think that very square timbers and a good press attachment(Protool has one) for your drill could alleviatie those issues though.
       I will take a camera but I still have to sit down a figure out loading pics. I will really try today because I have some great pics I would like to share. I think if I had a wooden keyboard I could rub they keys a little more efficiently.

[Raider Bill]

Assumably you would be able to tighten the through bolts as the timbers shrink but what about length shrinkage? Would that pull the frame inward? I suppose that will change depending on what kind and dryness of the wood?

[beenthere]

Liitle to no shrinkage in length of wood along the grain, unless you are referring to a 'length' measurement within a joint, and not wood.

[Jim_Rogers]

I've stay away form this thread, but this type of construction that is post with beams bolted together with two plates and through bolts is called "Post and beam".
The name "post and beam" is a type of construction, same as "timber frame". Timber framing is a type of construction.
Which each type of construction there are methods, procedures and rules that have to be applied. Just boring holes through timbers and bolting them together sounds easy and fast. But if you don't do it correctly with the correct bolt spacing and correct size bolts you weaken the wood and it could fail.
Anyone constructing a "post and beam" building should learn how to do it correctly to insure that it doesn't fail and hurt some.

Now, that we are talking about rules. I've just recently modified some posts where some new comers where posting all kinds of "active links" to off site places.
Posting active links to off site locations is not allowed.

Some of the posts here have active links but most of these sites were trusted sites and I haven't changed or modified them.
But you regular or long time users of this forum, that is FF, need to follow the rules that all the newcomers are asked to follow.
Please try and follow the rules that apply to all users......

Now, I'll get down off my soap box and walk away quietly.....

Jim Rogers (Moderator)

[logwalker]

I think it is wonderful that the timber framing craft is alive and well. But one thing that has always concerned me was the issue of seismic loading. For those that don't know of our situation in the NW, we are staring down the barrel of a 9.0 earthquake. A earthquake of this size will shake at G-forces of around 2.0 g's. These acceleration forces can go on for 3 to 5 minutes. I know that timberframe structures evolved in Europe over hundreds or thousands of years and that Europe doesn't have a history of huge earthquakes in this recent period.

Now as I see it a timberframe building is very rigid and about 1/3 of the joint has been cut away to create it. Now this being true, what is wrong with either metal plates or fasteners like Timberlinx if they can be proven to withstand the kind of forces that are generated in a massive earthquake. I think the real rub with the Timberlinx comes from them creating a joint that looks identical to a TF joint and I can understand how that would be offensive to a TF craftsperson. Would it help if we left out the wood plug so that the hardware would be visible?

Does anybody have any thoughts to the method of using one plate in a slot cut in the timbers using bolts. I like the look of this method.

Bibbyman, have you ever looked at Timber rivets as an alternative to bolts. I am strongly considering this alternative. It looks to have many advantages. It is supposed to stay tighter than a bolted connection.

Thanks, Joe

[Jayson]

I saw some guys using that slotting method to attach post to the concrete piers. but I have not seen it in any other joints. I have actully toyed with the concept of marrying so to speak, wood and steel in a single structure. Maybe when I finish the perpetual honey-do list. I have a friend that is really into his steel and of coarse I'm into the wood. A short explanation and I'm gone. Maybe some steel beams joined to wooden post, possibly a scarf with steel on one side, wood the other. Wood pegs throught the steel, steel rods through the wood. Could become our studio or something. Back to topic. The plates we used for that slotting method were pretty expensive and I imagine as the war continues that steel is only going up. You know it is a bit strange how easily people can become offended when discussing how to put wood together. It seems to me that ego is often the curtain pull to educating ourselves. I try not to shutdown ideas just because they don't jive with my preferences. Now with that said does anyone have any photos of plates and such. I have seen the post and plates(usually floor systems) assembled with steel plates and bolts, but I have rarely seen the same in roof systems where the angles come into play. As I mentioned earlier as soon as I break into the Timberlinx boxes at the shop I will start posting photos and options. Both of which I love to share.

[Don P]

I agree Jayson, I like learning different methods. There's usually plenty of opportunities to use things I've picked up from watching the way different people do things.

One thing I've noticed on log home forums. A newcomer will come in all pumped about building a log home after they saw a friends, etc. The die hards will start a debate over the merits or weaknesses of everything under the sun. The person will walk away shaking their head and most likely buy a trailer  :D.

This was a job we did about 18 years ago, both the photos and my memory are a little foggy  :. The main pitch is 12/12, the dormer was 4/12. There was a frame wall mirroring the truss closer to this end.


The purlins in this roof were set atop the truss with blocking between the purlins. This avoids notching the truss chord.


The 1/4" plate hangers around the skylite have inturned ears, hides the lags. They were used in the floor system as well although we've had others that used the same method as the purlins, blocked above the beam. These methods are easier to marry into the provisions in the NDS, it is still trying to catch up to TF with regards to notching and joinery. Bolts, side plates, minimal notches and small holes are pretty easy to find values and restrictions for.

[logwalker]

Is anybody using timber rivets and plates. They look like they would work well. Joe

[TexasTimbers]

I haven't heard of timber rivets.

RB, tangential (length as you are calling it) shrinkage in wood is minimal.

[Don P]

Slight correction kevjay,
Tangential grain would be a flatsawn board, radial is quartersawn, longitudinal is what RB is asking about.
Wood can shrink lengthwise if you have abnormal wood such as juvenile wood near the pith, or reaction wood such as compressionwood or tension wood. I see that in syp decking quite often and have had it happen in log homes with something as unexpected as western redcedar.

Timber rivets are shown in the trusjoist link I posted earlier. Wood design magazine from the Canadian Wood Council normally features several buildings each month that use some type of mechanical connections of large timbers. It's usually kinda out there for my taste but has some neat ideas. Timber rivets use the same idea as nail plates in lightweight trusses, many small connectors help share the load. This is considered good safe design. One thing an engineer told me once, if you can use 10 nails rather than 1 bolt, use the nails, its safer and fails ductile. Beyond a point and you have to use larger connectors cause you just can't fit enough nails in without destroying the wood around your connection.

[TexasTimbers]

I know it does shrink longitudinally, just not much usually and apart from that I just don't know what I am talking about is all.  :-[

I actually did know the difference back wehn I was learnin myself all the terms reading Hoadley etc. - I don't know why I wrote it that way I guess I un-knowed it at some point.  :

Thanks for the correction.  ;)

[Don P]

No sweat, just wanted to get it right in the thread.

I suspect it means you can remember the jobsite phone number  :D

Snows tapering off, might get a tree out yet today  8)