Need Information on deal gone wrong!!!!!!!!!

[Sandra Kay]

I am new to this, and in desperate need of some help.  I know not all loggers are dishonest, but I found one.  Contract signed, woods been carted off and sold.  I haven't been paid.  I so far have only been able to track down one sawmill that bought the lumber, and they have been very helpful.  But I know there was more than one buyer involved. The dishonest logger has not provided me with any documents, I don't think this is how you normally do business.  I am in northern Michigan and internet searches just seem to keep me going around and around in circles with little result.  Any ideas on who to contact.  This person will not return my calls.  It looks like I have to resort to hiring a lawyer now, but it's hard with the limited information I have.  This guy just kept stalling me with promises of payment, and even sent me a handwritten promisory note.  The deadline has come and gone and now it seems so has he.  What would you do in this case.  I appreciate any advise you can offer.  I would post the loggers name, but not sure if that is allowed.  Thanks again  sandy

[ely]

i would get that lawyer and file a lean on very piece of equipment that this guy has. for starters.

[scsmith42]

Ditto Ely's comments - go hire a mean, aggressive lawyer ASAP.

[Tom]

The water has already gone under the bridge, so to speak, but this is why the industry tries to get landowners to hire Foresters to handle timbersales.   Moving this question to "ask a Forester" will hopefully bring one into the conversation.  They may have information and maybe contacts to help you. 

It does sound like you will have to get the judicial system envolved, if the man has left. 

[Sandra Kay]

How do I know how much timber he has actually taken?  He subcontracted someone to cut the trees.  By his count he figures 140 thousand feet.  The loggers estimate came way below that.  Do I hire someone to go out in the woods to count stumps?  Thanks again.

[Texas Ranger]

If you were in Texas I would recommend you file a complaint with the sheriff, then hire a consulting forester to do a "stump cruise", you will need that information if it goes to court, and it will tell the law how much had been stolen.  This is a theft, nothing more, nothing less.

[Tom]

This is what one our certified Foresters will be able to tell you.  There is a very knowledgeable one  up in your neck of the woods that will probably be on later this evening.   Hopefully he will see this post.

Yes, you will probably have to hire a Forester and a Lawyer.  The Forester will be able to count stumps and measure them to arrive at an acceptable estimate of wood taken.  If the wood was actually stolen, there may even be heavier restitution than just the broken contract.   Don't start doing things helter skelter.  Wait and get some professional advice.  You don't want to do anything now that will muddy the  water any more than it is.  

That was Don, a Forester from Texas that has been with the Forum for a long, long time.  His word is as good as gold.  You will hopefully be hearing from a Michigan Forester soon too.   Thanks, Don.

[WDH]

What were the terms of the contract concerning payment?  Did you sell the wood by the load/ton/cord/mbf, etc?  If so, the logger is obligated to provide you a scale ticket for every load that was removed from your propery showing how much was removed.  If the logger is in breach of the contract, I suggest the first thing that you do is to contact the Michigan Department of Forestry (or whatever is the name of the state forestry agency in Michigan) and ask them to help you.  They can advise you of your rights and provide you with the information on how to procede.  They might even directly assist you in determining where the timber was sold by the logger.  I am sorry this happened to you, and I am confident that the Michigan State Forester can help you get the situation resolved.

[WDH]

Before you pay a consulting forester to do a "stump cruise" and estimate the volume that was removed, I would encourage you to get in touch with the Michigan State Forester for some assistance (per my previous post).  After consulting with the state folks (one of the reasons they are there is to assist the public on forestry matters), you will have a clearer picture of what you need to do and how to go about it in the right way.

[Paschale]

Sorry this happened to you, but you've come to the right place.

When you say Northern Michigan, are  you in the U.P., or in northwest or northeast Lower Michigan?

[Ron Scott]

Sandra,

I sent you a message. Feel free to give me a call at your convenience. Maybe I can help some.

[LeeB]

I ain't sure about the name rules either, but I would post the thief's name all over the place to keep him from ripping someone else off. LeeB

[thecfarm]

I'm so sorry to hear about your problem.It's not that there is dishonest loggers,it's just that dishonest people get into the logging business.If this was going on in my neck of the woods,the story itself would sprend like wild fire.I know of a a few loggers that has came see me to cut my wood.I just about told them they were lucky I would even let them walk on my land.Some don't know how to cut or havest the trees,looks like a mess when they get done and some are known to take a few logs off before getting to the mill, and others storys that I heard.I have a logger coming any day now,the same one here last year.He's been around for years and he does what he says he will.I've been watching him for 25 years.He always done a real nice job and he is real busy.I had to wait a year for him to get to me.Good luck.

[Sandra Kay]

Can I say his name?  I'm located in Northwest Michigan.  About 100 miles south of the bridge.  This guy sent out a mass mailer.  It consisted of 2 pages of things to watch out for, and he beleived that the bidding process was the way to go.  Everyone wins.  He cuts the logs, stages them in the field, timber buyers come and have a little bidding war, and we get the best price.  I kept contacting him while this was going on, asked about documents and tear slips.  He said I'd get all of that.  I got squat, lots of promises but no money.  We think he also pulled a fast one on the buyer, because he thought he bid on the whole lot, but the numbers just dont seem to add up. So it's possible that someone else is involved.   I was usually away at work when the logs were being loaded, so I have no idea who was carting them away.  I also know that the guy who was subcontracted to cut the logs is still fighting for payment.  According to him, The cheat just returned from a horse pulling contest in Denver.  His hobby is expensive and he's using my money to fund it.  You have all been great with advice.  I have contaced a lawyer and he promises to be a pit bull going after this guy.  But he needs info, and I cant get it.  It just bums me out, because he sounded so honest, and concerned that I didn't get taken advantage of.  I guess I was an easy mark.  I cut these trees because I really needed some extra income.  Now I have to go even further into debt to get what is rightfully mine.  It only takes one to taint the reputation of many.  I'll be back, your advice is really appreciated.  Wish I could say his name, I bet some of you know of him.  Thanks again.  Sandy

[Ron Wenrich]

Make sure you give Ron S. a message.  He's in your neck of the woods and knows the particulars in your state.

I have been involved in several trespasses. My involvement only came in after the lawyers were contacted and they decided they needed an appraisal and inventory.  This will be highly helpful if and when you go to court. 

I wouldn't trust the sub-contractors volume figures.  He was probably shorted as well, and might not know it.  Or, he is protecting the "boss".

Your first step will be to get a lawyer.  I know, it costs money.  But, when you win, court costs should be included.  My guess is that when the lawyer gets ahold of the logger, things will happen.  The logger will either dig in and delay things, or he will get out of it as quickly as possible.  I know in one case I was involved in, the lawyer was trying to make criminal charges out of the case. 

Since this guy has stiffed others in this deal, make sure your lawyer knows about these guys.  They will give tons of info and will be viewed as expert witnesses.  They will also be spreading the dirt about this guy.

[woody1]

I have timber land and would never sell timber without a forester. I know it is water under the dam, but get the money up front ! I know I will get alot of flack about this, but so many landowners around here have been stung..even by local loggers. I have sold many pieces of timber, through forester, and been tickled to death every time. If this guy is dishonest, and doesn't have any property or equiptment in his name you have got a long expensive fight ahead of you. I feel bad for you..no trees...no money..and probably a mess left behind. Not to mention the mess your about to get into, with lawyer, court, and your own time.

[SwampDonkey]

Sorry to here of your situation Sandra. What makes some fine folks like yourself vulnerable is they talk too much. And this guy heard just enough about your situation that he figured this was going to be an easy target. Sounds like the guy never cut a stick himself, he was acting as a 'fulse liason', who hired a crew to work under him. These guys often present themselves as foresters, but without credentials and some folks never question it. I can't figure how he was allowed to cut all this wood without you throwing the bum out, call the sheriff or something. I would have asked for a deposit on the wood money before the first chainsaw left the bed of the pickup. Sorry if I make it sound like it's your fault, it ain't. However, if it happened up here in NB, you wouldn't get much results even with the best lawyers. Sad state of affairs and very common because hardly anyone hires a forester on private land to look after the job up here and rarely a plan followed, though often times some kind of contract which merely states the terms of cash flow , such as how often and how much. I've done a few stump cruises for land owners, but they are usually small parcels and the value of the wood would never pay for the court costs. Biggest trouble here is you have to prove he did it, often times you have to prove you own the land and you also have to prove the guy willfully crossed a boundary line to steel wood, if he is sneaking wood from and adjacent harvest. All kinds of stone walls.  : People stole wood here off my father for years, neighbors and loggers both.

[Riles]

Amazing, I just had the class on timber theft two days ago. Let me hit a few highlights.

Rules and regulations vary by state, so you'll need local expertise, but this is fundamental: Timber theft is a crime. As in police, not lawyers.

In Louisiana (which claims to lead the nation in prosecuting timber theft, about 70 cases a year), the investigation is done by the Dept of Agriculture and Forestry. The guy doing the investigation may or may not be a forester by training, but he is a cop with a gun and a badge. He does the arrest at the end of the investigation. So the advice to contact a state forester is sound. These are the guys that understand how the system works and where to get the information.

Note that in Louisiana, it's against the law to take more than 30 days to pay the landowner. Just call the sheriff, it's the same standard as bounced checks.

There are five types of timber theft:

1. Outright theft. You drive off in the morning and when you come home, your trees are gone.
2. Theft from absentee landowners. Sooo much easier.
3. Diversions. Took off an extra load or two and sold it to somebody else.
4. Contract fraud. Either not living up to the contract or abusing the fine print.
5. Merchandising deception. Took off 15 loads of sawlogs and 5 loads of pulp and paid you for 5 loads of sawlogs and 15 loads of pulp.

The guy giving the talk loved making a federal case about it. Literally. If the bad guy took it across state lines (interstate transportation of stolen goods) or used the mail (mail fraud) or long distance telephone calls (wire fraud) it became a federal offense. Unlimited assets to chase the bad guys and guaranteed jail time on conviction. His conviction rate after 20 something years was 100%.

Call the cops. The only ones that get away are the ones that don't get chased.

[Jeff]

Sandra. send me a private message with the info about this logger. I want to see if I know anything about them.  Also, make a call to the Michigan Association of Timbermens to see if they can help. You can get their contact information at www.timbermen.org

[Corley5]

My Grandma was here last summer when a timber buyer showed up with his line of BS about sustainable harvests and such.  He gave her a card and was ready to start cutting when she told him that she didn't own this land and Dad and I do our own harvesting and for others as well.  He actually asked her for his card back  : .  She didn't/wouldn't give it back  ;) ;D  The neighbor that made the pin for my Mule had a card left in his door the other day from a timber buyer.  I got a mailing from one in Petoskey last fall that I'd never heard of.  Two page line of BS with business cards both paper and magnetic.  Probably shoulda saved it but it got filed  ;)  Timber buyers aren't necessarily foresters and foresters that work for a mill are timber buyers.  Look for a neutral forester such as one that works for your Conservation District.  If they don't have one on staff they'll be able to refer you to one or contact your local DNR office.  Guys like you're dealing with need to be put in jail  >:( >:( >:(

[Phorester]

SANDRA, This is not a forestry problem.  It's a legal problem, and you need a lawyer as has already been recommended. 

Not to say you shouldn't ask questions here.  We can guide you somewhat, but a lawyer in your area will be familiar with your local laws and how the courts handle this type of case.  He/she will tell you what you need.  Hopefully with your involvement on this Board you will know where to go to get it.   Talk to a lawyer, then let us know if we can help you further.  Keep us appraised of how it's going.

[WDH]

Not only talk with a lawyer, make the contact with the Michigan Assoc. of Timbermen like Jeff suggested and definitely get the Michigan State Forestry Division to help you.  You need these support organizations behind you.  You will be amazed at the good they can do in support of you rather than you going it alone against this crook.

[beenthere]

I'd be talkin to the Sherriff right off, and at least have him aware of this guy in his jurisdiction (and then include the others that have been mentioned).  And above all, I'd have it all written down with as much detail as can be remembered. Much easier to leave a paper trail, than to leave 'word of mouth' for others to interpret what actually happened and when and with who.
Wish you good luck and God's speed to get it resolved.

[WDH]

Also, take as many pictures as you can to document things for possible future reference.

[Sandra Kay]

I did speak to Ron and he was a wealth of information. 

Received paperwork from the mill I knew about, and reviewing my notes I figured out who the second buyer was and contacted them also.  That call may produce some real results. 

The buyer called the logger and shortly after that the logger called me with a promise to send half on this upcoming Tuesday with the balance paid in full on Friday.  He just has to take care of some banking business and I'll be paid.  I'm hopefull, but I wont be surprised if its just more B.S. to stall me. 

Then this morning the buyer also called, said he applied some heat to the logger, and informed him that if that was how he planned to do business, he didn't think they'd be doing further business together. He believes after the conversation they had last evening indicates I will definately get paid.

I did file a complaint with the Michigan Association of Timberman about this logger for questionable forestry practices and ethical behavior. 

Hopefully this will all be resolved by this time next week.  Regardless I'm still insisting upon the paperwork from the second buyer, and I still intend to warn others of this mans business practices. 

So again, thanks to all who responded and the advice.  Hopefully my next post here will be one with a positive outcome.  Sandy