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Author Topic: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐  (Read 17839 times)

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Offline Bill

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2007, 12:21:27 AM »
DanG - so I guess I know how you feel about paying people to have more kids  ;D

For the whole fuel ( esp fossil ? ? ? ) issue - I like to think of it like a bunch of trees - you can cut some down but sooner or later someone's gonna have to plant some for the next guy ( grandchild ? ) to cut and near as I can recall it takes awhile to grow a gallon of unleaded. Now I'm in the diesel camp - I like that Rudolph Diesel designed his engines to run on peanut oil so farmers wouldn't need nasty old businessmen. Course someone's already said iffen we could grow it they'd find a way to outlaw or tax it to death.

Interesting stuff about hydrogen - h2 + o = energy and h2o. Split h2o and you get back h2 and o to start over - oh if it were so easy.


Offline metalspinner

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2007, 12:56:27 PM »
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There are some gene pools that need draining!  In my always humble opinion, we should offer a tax deduction for the first child, none for the second, and a penalty for all after that.

 :D :D :D  That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Offline logwalker

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2007, 09:40:04 PM »
Mr Gore is flying back to Stockholm in a private jet to receive his Nobel Political Peace Prize. He will burn more fuel on the trip than I use in a year.
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Offline Furby

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2007, 09:50:23 PM »
But you aren't as important as he is, what do you expect?

Offline jim king

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2007, 12:03:10 PM »
I too beleive in global warming as without it North America would still be under a glacier. I think what irritates everyone is the fact that so many people have taken a natural occuring phenomenon which has been going on for at least millions or billions of years and turning it into a mocked up crises which they claim to have control over by raising money for a solution. Reading that possibly the earth has warmed six tenths of one degree over the last 100 years assuming that the thermometers 100 years ago were as accurate as today I dont think I have to worry about my Great Grandchildren overheating.

It is as if nobody had a science class in school. We were all taught that there have been several glacial periods that covered many parts of the world and the dinasaur fossils found in the Western deserts of the US lived there when it was tropical and the same goes for the new dinasaur finds in what is now freezing cold Patagonia on the tip of South America.

Here are a couple of easy to read and seem to be quite unbiased links concerning our history. I am afraid that as important as some people apparantly think they are the cycles will continue.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ice/chill.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_glaciation

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Offline cantcutter

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2007, 07:29:35 AM »
Something is changing.... I was born in a converted Ice House that my great grandparents owned. The "Ice Pond" next to it has not froze in my life time and apparently used to every year.

Offline Geoff Kegerreis

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2007, 11:54:23 AM »
I too beleive in global warming as without it North America would still be under a glacier. I think what irritates everyone is the fact that so many people have taken a natural occuring phenomenon which has been going on for at least millions or billions of years and turning it into a mocked up crises which they claim to have control over by raising money for a solution.

Your man Al Gore has made a ton of money off of this sort of scam and was about to make more on it until the skeptics made their cases mainstream.  His movie sucked and he gets the emmy for that - and then the Nobel peace prize for crusading this big critical effort (never mind that the figures he used in his movie have already been proven inaccurate).  All this hype for a ridiculous process that was around long before any of us were and will be around well after any of us are.


 I get all this "carbon credit" junk in my e-mail box, invitations to meetings that are going to cost me $400, etc...what a bunch of nonsense.  None of them are worth a penny.

The bottom line, and I've been stating this for at least 5 years on the usenet and other forums is that it's mostly fabricated scare tactics to fool the wealthy out of their money so that researchers can get paid.  Period...and it's working.

I have an active lifestyle that keeps me away from internet forums these days - If I don't reply, it's not personal - feel free to shoot me an e-mail via my website (on profile) if there is something I can help you with!  :-)

Offline cantcutter

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2007, 05:26:04 PM »
So why would anybody care or believe that global warming is a scam? If it is as you say that Al is just scaring the rich out of their money to pay research scientist why would you care? Are you rich or a research scientist?

The bottom line is that it is a calculated scientific fact that we are dumping more CO2 into the environment than the environment can handle..... They could call it cotton candy if they wanted too......it doesn't change the fact that it is having an impact on the globe.

Don't belive the science if that is easier for you... We are pretty much screwed no matter if its real or not. If Global warming don't get us nature will some other way sooner or later. History has proven that more than once and nobody needs Al Gore to tell them that that is fact. 


 

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2007, 07:00:40 AM »
Here's the problem I've been seeing with the man caused global warming.  They say the science proves it, but, I have yet to see any conclusive study that says that CO2 actually is the culprit.  I've seen both sides of this arguement where one says that more CO2 is the cause of global warming, and another where global warming causes more CO2. 

Here's some science I do know.  Back about 750-800 years ago, things were warm.  It was so warm that the Vikings had settlements on Iceland, Greenland, and thought to have made it to Canada.  They didn't walk.  At the same time, farming records show that wheat was harvested right about where it is now. Grapes were also farmed in England.  This period was known as the Medieval warming, and both sides agree that it happened.

There was also a time when it was pretty cold.  That was the little Ice Age and that happened in the 1600s.  It should be noted that there was very little sunspot activity at the time.

I've talked to some foresters that have worked in relic communities.  These are stands of trees that are growing outside of their normal range.  How did they get there?  The common theory is that at one time the climate supported the range in that area.  The climate changed and the tree's range retreated to what it is today.  There are pockets that still support those trees.  I've seen both northern species and southern species that are in relic communitites.

For me, I think its a little of both.  Being a forester, I've always preached good land stewardship.  I also think that stewardship extends to other sources of pollution, be it land, water or air.  Some people live it, some just talk it.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline cantcutter

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2007, 08:14:58 AM »
You are absolutely right, the climate changes, always has and always will. The earth went into the ice age without the help of man. So far man has for the most part adapted.. Sea levels have risen in the past and they are on the rise now. There are signs of prehistoric roads on the bottom of the ocean so at one time those sites were high and dry......
Or the alien from The abyss has visited us in the past and built them there ;) 

The climate is getting warmer.... that is not in dispute. The science in question is whether man is too blame or is it a natural cycle? Most believe that carbon output in to blame and science is hoping to prove it. That is what science does; so what I don't understand is why some people are so dead against doing and paying for that research?

My feeling on the issue is that the atmosphere is like a river. If you dump in the river  the river is going to continue to flush itself out, but eventually will become over burdened and die. If you stop dumping in the river it will flush itself out and become viable again. So regardless of whether CO2 emissions is causing global warming or not, we need to start limiting dumping in the atmosphere because it does have an impact.     

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2007, 10:44:51 AM »
I think you'll have to agree that both sides of the argument seems to have a common ground.  That is, we ought to be doing something to limit pollution.  As you say, we can't keep dumping into the air.

But, when the argument centers on who's right, then money gets wasted just to prove points.  I'm not certain it is provable.  It doesn't matter who's right.  It just polarizes society and we get into a do nothing type of situation. 

Wouldn't it just be better if we said that there is warming; it could be natural or it could be manmade?  Then, get on with things. 

I contend it would be smarter to use research money on cleaner fuel technology.  Its a benefit that both sides could use.  The oil age is just about at an end, and we have nothing to replace it.  Our economy will not advance until a new fuel source is found. 

Mark Twain said "Everyone complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it"  Things certainly haven't changed much.   ;)
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Tom

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2007, 10:47:23 AM »
Maybe the world could use a good "thinning".
extinct

Offline Geoff Kegerreis

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2007, 10:53:51 AM »
So why would anybody care or believe that global warming is a scam? If it is as you say that Al is just scaring the rich out of their money to pay research scientist why would you care? Are you rich or a research scientist?

I have never been wealthy by U.S. standards, but I have worked as a research scientist; not a principal investigator, but rather someone working in the lab (tree genetics/G.M.O.s) trying to produce results for the P.I. in the academic realm.

Quote
The bottom line is that it is a calculated scientific fact that we are dumping more CO2 into the environment than the environment can handle.....
  Actually, that statement is not a scientific fact.  All scientific studies are relative based on the controls and external information.  In this case, we have neither the controls nor the information to make a prudent scientific judgment regarding how much CO2 "the environment can handle".

Are we headed for a period of increased global temperatures and world-wide environmental reaction because of this increase?  Possibly, but the probability cannot be calculated.  However, decisions are being made regardless of that little misnomer.

My point is that these "carbon credit" trading schemes are severely jumping the gun.  I find the whole matter absurd, really.  The U.S. congress is debating several bills surrounding this whole idea that humans can somehow "stop" or "reduce" this global warming by absorbing the carbon in young trees that grow faster, etc.  It's the old "any management is better than no management" ideal, which is based on ignorance - not stupidity, but ignorance...You cannot manage something unless you understand the likely outcomes of the management decisions.

From a scientific point of view, the entire topic is sheer madness.  It's not about science at all really, it's about politics.  Mark my words: by the time they're done with all this, the outcome will raise taxes and restrict citizens livelihoods.  Economically, it will be the equivalent of a casino: Don't create any money, just pass it around some so it can wind up in more people's hands. 

As far as Gore goes, his awards were of the entertainment and peace variety, not the scientific variety.  In any case, I seriously wonder about the reasoning capabilities of the panel judges.  Anyone who has half a brain would have found his movie horrid and basically, his ability to be a world traveler and use fuel resources many times larger than the average American and yet consider/sell himself as a "environmental crusader" and have success at that is flat out sickening....

...but then again, Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/) is happening at a faster pace than in that movie, which is quite a shame.

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They could call it cotton candy if they wanted too......it doesn't change the fact that it is having an impact on the globe.

Well at least cotton candy is a reasonably measurable commodity.

Quote
Don't belive the science if that is easier for you... We are pretty much screwed no matter if its real or not. If Global warming don't get us nature will some other way sooner or later. History has proven that more than once and nobody needs Al Gore to tell them that that is fact.   


It's not global warming that will cause the human race the most misery.  It's socio-economics.  Who is in control, and where the money trail is leading.  Right now it's leading to CENTCOM in Iraq, where there are jets dumping payloads of fuel at high altitude (so it will evaporate before it hits the ground) every practice run to pad next fiscal year's DOD budget.  I think it's clear to most where that sort of decision is going to lead.

 
I have an active lifestyle that keeps me away from internet forums these days - If I don't reply, it's not personal - feel free to shoot me an e-mail via my website (on profile) if there is something I can help you with!  :-)

Offline Geoff Kegerreis

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2007, 11:11:53 AM »
I think you'll have to agree that both sides of the argument seems to have a common ground.  That is, we ought to be doing something to limit pollution.  As you say, we can't keep dumping into the air.

We are doing some things to limit pollution (catalytic converters are an example of this), but it's not enough.  Stop using leaf blowers instead of rakes, etc. might be a start.  This society is gung-ho on gasoline and power implements.  It's luxury gone wild essentially.  Americans driving 10 miles to their fast food restaurant to get a burger with beef shipped there from Bolivia.  That's America.  What's going to stop it from happening?  An economic depression - that's what.

Quote
Mark Twain said "Everyone complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it"  Things certainly haven't changed much.   ;)
  someone else said "Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die".  Nope, they sure haven't.
I have an active lifestyle that keeps me away from internet forums these days - If I don't reply, it's not personal - feel free to shoot me an e-mail via my website (on profile) if there is something I can help you with!  :-)

Offline Sprucegum

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2007, 05:37:27 PM »
Just so you know - a student at the University of Alberta did a study on catalytic converters and observed that they do not work in weather below -10  :o  That was several years ago, wonder who listened to him?  :-\

Offline crtreedude

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2007, 08:49:46 AM »
I think the most reasonable approach is to not think of the earth as a dumping ground. If you have waste, dispose of it properly and don't produce something without first thinking how you are going to get rid of the waste.

For example, if you have a sawmill - what are you going to do with all of the sawdust? If you are portable, no big problem, but if you are stationary, you could really hurt where you are from the runoff from your waste product.

It is not reasonable to think as there are more and more of us that the world can continue to be our dumping ground. Carbon Neutrality for me is just this. Try to live in a way to minimize your waste, and if you have to generate some waste, figure out a way to offset it.

Otherwise we are all like those who live on a stream and each one dumps their sewage into it - since the stream can obviously handle a little bit of sewage. But it can't if everyone acts like a slob.

Is our climate change due to our dumping of CO2 - not sure. But is it reasonable to think we can dump and dump and dump with no effect forever? Until we KNOW the limit of the earth to handle it, it would seem reasonable not to invite disaster by finding out the hardway.

When someone says that we aren't the cause but can not say at what level we would be the cause, I get pretty suspicious. Dump things in the streams and you polute the water and kill what lives in the water. Keep dumping things in the air and we probably will have the same result - or so it would seem reasonable to me.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline Geoff Kegerreis

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2007, 12:43:05 PM »
I think the most reasonable approach is to not think of the earth as a dumping ground. If you have waste, dispose of it properly and don't produce something without first thinking how you are going to get rid of the waste.

Absolutely.

Quote
For example, if you have a sawmill - what are you going to do with all of the sawdust? If you are portable, no big problem, but if you are stationary, you could really hurt where you are from the runoff from your waste product.

Well, even if you're portable - what affect will the dumping of that sawdust have in the location where you are dumping it?  That may seem like a negligible question, but such an action might have a considerable consequence. 

I used to have an old boss who went through WWII and lived through the depression.  He got one leg blown off in the war and lived the remainder of his days with an artificial limb.  He made millions in local real estate investment after the war.  I was walking across a parking lot with him once and he used his 75 year old good leg to support himself while picking up a penny off of the parking lot.  He made a comment about another person who used to work there who would shake his head at it - but the bottom line is every small change counts.  Now, if only everyone could live by that rule...

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It is not reasonable to think as there are more and more of us that the world can continue to be our dumping ground. Carbon Neutrality for me is just this. Try to live in a way to minimize your waste, and if you have to generate some waste, figure out a way to offset it.

Otherwise we are all like those who live on a stream and each one dumps their sewage into it - since the stream can obviously handle a little bit of sewage. But it can't if everyone acts like a slob.

From a purely ethical standpoint, the stream cannot handle any sewage without affecting those who depend on it.  The natural resources belong to the whole of us...but from a legal standpoint, they do not.  The next question practically asks itself.

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Is our climate change due to our dumping of CO2 - not sure. But is it reasonable to think we can dump and dump and dump with no effect forever? Until we KNOW the limit of the earth to handle it, it would seem reasonable not to invite disaster by finding out the hardway.

When someone says that we aren't the cause but can not say at what level we would be the cause, I get pretty suspicious.

Well...it's sort of like any other immeasurable quantity, isn't it...like if I say there is no God, but I can't prove it?   :o  Would you be suspicious then?  That's the beauty of this subject, because it is immeasurable in whole and thus unprovable as an effect.  You can investigate ice cores, you can investigate aerials photos of glaciers (which by the way have means other than just heat to cause the disappearance), you can look at the tiny view of historical records and ultra small sample calculations over time which all (and more) have been/are being done, but because the problem is so expansive, we can see that the globe has heated and cooled to enormous extents (relative to the way we view our environment), but what is causing all the ruckus down here and where is it headed?: The answer is unknown, so as long as the researchers say we need to stop it to save our species from extinction, the grant money keeps pouring in.   :-[ 

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Dump things in the streams and you polute the water and kill what lives in the water. Keep dumping things in the air and we probably will have the same result - or so it would seem reasonable to me.

...and me as well, but the question...the one that asks itself... is how do "the people" create a societal condition that is based on demand of products and services, but yet is not associated with the inevitable emissions produced by the manufacturing and logistics of those commodities?

As long as folks have money and the means to pollute, we'll do it while giving no more of a thought to it than the breath of air we breathe.

Heck, even "forests: a renewable resource" is only renewable to the extent of the fossil fuels we use to extract the products.  Fossil fuels are not renewable (at least not for a long, long time).

Carbon trading as it has been introduced to me is nothing more than another scam to make money - you can't "buy" the environment back to health.


I have an active lifestyle that keeps me away from internet forums these days - If I don't reply, it's not personal - feel free to shoot me an e-mail via my website (on profile) if there is something I can help you with!  :-)

Offline Sprucegum

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Re: CO2 and climate change-Really ?┐
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2007, 01:25:27 PM »
I recently read an historical novel about the tall sailing ships. When they were becalmed in the doldrums the ocean would turn brown around the ship. When it became foul enough to bother him the captain would order out the rowboats and tow the ship to cleaner water.

Nomads all over the earth move not only to find greener pastures but to leave brown. The areas left, given time, would restore and regenerate themselves.

I think we should move as soon as we can invent a better rowboat.


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