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Author Topic: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades  (Read 4295 times)

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Offline Nate Surveyor

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Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« on: May 03, 2007, 12:25:23 PM »
Machine shops can grind swingmill shafts. Most machine shops can do stuff like this. Anyway, I have an option of rigging a Peterson Saw, with a Lucas blade, and a Lucas saw, with a Peterson Blade.

Now, my question:

Has anybody compared the output of the blades, and figured out what is best?

I like the Lucas 5 hole bolt pattern. (I am a fan of 5,7,11 and numbers that don't do harmonics) In fan blades, it produces less noise, to use prime numbers.

So, to have a 5 tooth blade, or a 7 tooth blade, with a 5 hole bolt pattern seems to make sense.

Also, some of the copy-cat mill makers seem to favor the Lucas blades.  (brand x etc.)

Side by side, what is best?

Maybe some work better in hard wood, or soft wood?

What cuts the smoothest? Narrowest consistant kerf?

Has this been discussed before?

Then there is another company in Canada, selling another swinger, with 4 teeth. I dunno about them.

Nate
I know less than I used to.

Offline woodbowl

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2007, 03:56:26 PM »
I've wondered about that as well, A/C propellers are the same way.

If you put a 5 tooth, (once a) 3600 rpm Lucas blade on a 6 tooth, 1900 rpm Peterson shaft, the bites per minute and the tip speed will be less.

If you put a 6 tooth, (once a) 1900 rpm Peterson blade on a 3600 rpm Lucas shaft, the bites per minute and tip speed will be more.

Crunching the numbers to find the best BPM and TS is surley within the two proven spec limits of Lucas and Peterson. The two extremes prove that things work well, but have different characteristics.

How many rpm's can the blade take before it becomes inefficient? How slow can the rpm's be before things bounce around too much? Where is the sweet spot of a swinger that delivers max BFPH, within the given HP?  A light frame VS a heavy frame would change the equation too.

I don't know where the sweet spot is, but I would like to find out. Sometimes I think it is a matter of personality depending on the goal.  :P
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

Offline hansbaba

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2007, 08:29:10 PM »
I too would like to know the difference. I have used both Peterson and Lucas mills (Well one of each) and a 6 tooth and 8 tooth on the peterson. All I noticed was the 6 tooth seemed to not cut quite as clean. (This could also have been my imagination) For the record,  both blades were used on D-fir. It seems to me it is more important that the teeth are sharp then how many teeth there are on the blade. Just my opinion of course.

Offline Firebass

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 08:36:46 PM »
How many rpm's can the blade take before it becomes inefficient? How slow can the rpm's be before things bounce around too much? Where is the sweet spot of a swinger that delivers max BFPH, within the given HP?  A light frame VS a heavy frame would change the equation too.

Woodbowl Your right on it ;D.   If your mill is heavy enough and you have the horsepower to hog with out chattering you will cut faster than you would if you have a light frame with higher RPM to smooth things out.

Me? I used a Lucas blade on my homemade swinger because it was there....  I am intending to use more teeth and more horsepower.  My mill is plenty heavy duty enough to handle it and I wouldn't hesitate to put 30 or 40 hp to it.  Also I can change speeds on my gearbox because I use a jack shaft for the saw arbor.  I simply just change timing belt and pulleys between the gearbox and the saw arbor.   My mill is not portable and I can bog the engine very easy.

It seems that the swing blade manufactures have purposely designed they're mills to have just enough HP to cut lumber safely using 25 or so hp power from the engine.  Ever heard of a swinger with excessive HP? My thought is it too risky to do that to the light aluminum frame swingers.  I don't think they could handle the inertia generated if something goes wrong.     I bet the guys running big circle blade head rigs would agree or at least have some good input on this subject.   

I'd Like to see gutsy industrial swingblade mill maybe 50 hp or more anyone know of one?  Reminds me of the "V-8" Hot rod Chain saw. :D

firebass


Offline Jeff Meyer

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2007, 12:10:16 AM »
I have used both and still keep coming back to the 8 tooth blade.  I agree with the how clean the cut is with 8 teeth compared to 6 or 5.  You might get more hp behind 5 or 6 but the 8 stays sharper a lot longer and if you break off a tooth or two you can keep milling.  The other thing I have realized between the Lucas and Peterson blades is the quality of the steel.  Peterson uses a lot better grade of steel that seems to hold tension better.  That is probably why they cost more. 

Offline Captain

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2007, 04:36:14 AM »
Olen, your speed numbers on the Peterson do not take into account the drive belt ratio into the gearbox.  At 1:1 the speed would be 1950 RPM average a 3600 RPM.  I also question the accuracy of your Lucas blade speed, that is too fast.

Dangerous Dan has some great info on his Lucas Blade use on his homebuilt.  He actually slowed his blade speed down to approx 2000 rpm after some earlier problems.  Like FireBass he used them because they were there.  So does Brand X. 

The tooth count debate is simple, more teeth require more HP when loaded.  More teeth will typically give you a better finish at the same feed rate.  Also, the more teeth you put around the perimeter of a blade, the more plate deflection you get because of the gullet size.  I prototyped a 10 tooth 8" blade, and the blade would deflect too easily in the cut at typical plate thicknesses, it appears 8 teeth on an approximately 21" diameter blade is about the maximum.

For ease of cut, I have many customers cutting woods such as cottonwood that request a wider kerf.  I actually prefer a slightly wider kerf than the Peterson OE blades have for most cutting situations.  Less side clearance = greater sawing effort.

I put a lot of effort and expense into prototyping the blades that I manufacture and sell.  I went through 5 different suppliers and countless hours of testing.  I actually believe that my blades meet and exceed any and all specifications of the sawmill manufacturer.  Also because they are made in the US, the costs are substantially less.

Nate, best of luck on your search.  Watching the thread with interest.

Captain

Offline Firebass

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2007, 09:53:24 AM »
Well done Captain!  Can you email me a quote on your 8" Blade.  Saw RPM 2000 Works good on my mill but my engine RPM is too low to get all the torque it can provide.  What Rpm do you suggest for the engine speed for the longest engine life.  Kohler Command 25.

Thanks
Steve

Offline woodsteach

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2007, 10:45:58 AM »
I am learning a lot from this thread. 

I have a Brand X mill with 6 teeth that is made by Pacific Hoe.  My question is that a Lucas or Peterson blade. 

Captain will your blades work on my mill?  If so could you pm me prices.

Thanks

woodsteach
Brand X Swing Mill, JD 317 Skidloader, MS460 & 290, the best family a guy could ever dream of...all provided by God up above.  (with help from our banker ; ) )

Offline Captain

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2007, 06:56:54 AM »
Firebass, the HP and torque curves run quite parallel on that Kohler, and near top rated RPM.  I would suggest a reduction ratio that places you at 2050 at 3500rpm.  In this manner, when sawing and experencing slight engine RPM drop, your optimal sawing speed of 2000 rpm blade speed and hp/torque curve are in their best alignment. 

Swigmills are typically run like a car running flat out on the on the highway, throttle down and no deviation.   I liken it to the "highway miles vs city miles" argument  ;D

The 8" blades are 4 bolts on a 104mm circle, and a 40mm center hole.  That is incompatable with the Lucas style mounts, sorry folks.

Captain

Offline Part_Timer

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 09:26:16 AM »
I have one of Captains 6 tooth blades on my 8" mill and I can't say enough good about it.  There seems to be a lot less vibration in extremely hard woods. 
Peterson 8" ATS.
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Offline Nate Surveyor

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2007, 10:07:03 AM »
Cap'n, it appears that you should carry ALL the blades, for ALL the swingmills.

(hint hint)

I have not yet installed the 8" shaft. When I get around to it, I will be sampling some blades...

Nate
I know less than I used to.

Offline Firebass

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Re: Peterson Blades, vs Lucas Blades
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2007, 12:26:56 AM »
Cap'n, it appears that you should carry ALL the blades, for ALL the swingmills.

(hint hint)

I have not yet installed the 8" shaft. When I get around to it, I will be sampling some blades...

Nate

I second that thought ;)


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