Help!!

[Neil_B]

'K guys, I've changed my profile a bit and lightening up my attitude. I'm discontinuing with that other posting as I've already ruffled enough feathers. Just a little tense lately! :-[
To all those I've ticked off, I apologize. :'(

Anyway, I really need any pictures of your mill equiped debarker. This one doesn't work and I need to know how to make it work. I've tried getting pics off the various websites but none are close enough to get a good look at, if they show them at all. Even if you know of a manufacturers website that does have a good pic, it would help. To save on downloads here you can just email it to me.

I'm going to saw some lumber now. ;D

[Tom]

I've never had one of those automated thing-uh-muh-whopples.  
 
I use one of these. :D

[Neil_B]

Is that hydraulic, electric or armstrong? ;)
I'll have to try and scrounge one up to use for now.

[beenthere]

New_sawyer
The one Tom showed is what I use when I have logs sawn.
The last time I used it, I just cut through the bark where the sawcut line was, in particular on the "incoming" side. Then the blade teeth didn't have to cut through dirt and stones. Probably just as important on the "outgoing" side, but doesn't seem to be when spending the "chopping" time.

But would you show some pictures of what you are having trouble with, and describe what trouble you are having with debarker? Something more than "this one doesn't work" will help visualize what about it "doesn't work".

I like your profile "mascot" much better, and hope I can shake loose of the one I have some time before the next milestone is reached. Keep the posts coming, you guys and gals.

[Norm]

I'll take some pics of the one on my WM tomorrow for you, is there anything in particular you want to see about it ie, the mounting system or the tension setup. Let me know and if it isn't raining I'll take em.

[Neil_B]

This is the debarker arm.

this one is the debarker (of course)

This one from above.

OK, Problem 1 was the debarker would kick out from the log. Notice the rotation of the blade, I changed it already.

Problem 2 the unit pivots at the motor and blade mount which causes it to twist into the log and bind up.

Problem 3 the fence doesn't let it follow the contour of the log, also causing it to bind.

Problem 4 is in the inards. The blade is attached via love-joy couplers to the motor shaft. The bearing that the blade arbour goes through is of the swivel/mount type.
(Not sure what the real term for that is but they are used when you can't get perfect alignment.)
 The bearing swivels within the housing.
Anyway, this swivel bearing allows too much sloppyness in the arbour to shaft and you get all kinds of noises and sparks. Mainly because I can't get the couplings tight enough to take out the slop.

So with those problems in mind, I have to make this thing follow the log with a decent fence and also make the motor to blade a tighter unit.

the pivot on the arm itself, in the top picture, should allow the unit to follow the contours of a log. I believe this is what the company intended it to do but not happening because of the binding at the fence and motor mount.

[Neil_B]

hey Norm, didn't see your post there. Anything would help. yes the mount, tensioner and anything else you think may help.

Thanks

[Ron Wenrich]

Your debarker works pretty much like a mud saw on circle mills.  Those are run by an electric motor and are pulled down against the log to chip away some bark before getting to the head saw.  Thick barked species would take awhile, and you had to pull down pretty hard on the denser stuff.

I'm not wondering if your cure for Problem 1 didn't cause Problem 2.  If the rotation is such that the mud saw is kicking ahead, it seems to me, that it wouldn't dig in.

Is the fence the football shaped thing?  That looks more like a guard to me.  

If your debarker runs on the same principal as a mud saw, then it would be hard to follow the contour completely.  Mud saws kinda float across the log.  What is used for tension?  It can't be too rigid or you'll dig in.

If you're getting sparks, something ain't hooked up right. I think the type of bearing you're talking about is a self-aligning bearing.  We use them all the time in heavier applications.  Mud saws are usually attached to a collar with a couple of bolts.  

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi New_. Go to the For Sale page at the bottom of the drop down forum bar, at the end of any page. Bibbyman had a Jones De-barker for sale and the pics are still there. It ain't like yours, but, it MAY give ya some ideas. ;D

[biziedizie]

New_Sawyer it's good to see you back with a smile on your face
  Between your descriptions of your problems and the great advice that you will get from the guys here I'm sure you will be cutting perfect boards soon.
  Keep up the positive attitude!

     Steve

[Fla._Deadheader]

HMMMMMM, 2 things. Is the football shaped thing, just above the blade, supposed to be what rides against the log??
  Looks to me like it could get caught in the bark and that would make it twist. Maybe drill a 3/8ths hole, out near the end and insert a bolt, so that, it would keep the tips from digging into the bark??

  Second, the two different types of blades that I have seen, are like a biscuit cutter blade. Pieces of carbide that actually "chew" the bark away. Maybe the sawblade cuts too deep and then binds??  The pics of the Jones will show the blade better than my splainin.  ;) :D

[ohsoloco]

Deadheader, I've seen that drop down bar many many times, but never "noticed" it (at least not enough to try it).   That's pretty slick...learn something new on here every time I visit  8)

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi loco. Yeah, this guy, Jeff, is pretty clever with all these buttons and bars and bangles and ????? ;)

[Jeff]

I never use that dropdown bar myself. It does not include the full members only portions of the site. That explains why we can talk about deadheader in the other forums and he never retorts. ;D

[Tom]

If I want to stay in the same forum, I hit "Go".  When I finish that forum I hit "Home" and look for another one that has a "new" tag on it.

I can't help myself,  I've just gotta read them all. There's too much good stuff going on to stay in one spot. :D  :P

Harold, I think it's quicker than the drop downs too.  :-/

[Fla._Deadheader]

What other forum ???[/color][/size]

[Fla._Deadheader]

Tom, you splained all that when you were here. I just forgot?? :'( :-[

[Tom]

Yeah, but you got 'tention deficit disorder like me.  My memory isn't any longer than my  uh....nose.  B'sides I don't know what to call all those other sections either. ???
Les'ee there is a Post and it's in a Thread and it's in a subject(forum?) and it's in a Topic and it's in the big Forum.

How would you catagorize it? :P

And for cryin' out loud, what do call that front page, cover page or whatever it is.  You know, the one with the Poll on it. ??? ???

[Fla._Deadheader]

POLL, There's a POLL ????? Now I'm gettin perenoid !!!

   Shoot. I'm gonna go peek over the fence. Be back in a few minutes.

[ohsoloco]

I came to this forum from a link on one of those other forums.  It was many many months (and because I logged onto the forum from another comp. instead of my favorites) to realize there was the "poll page"   :D

[ohsoloco]

New_Sawyer....notice we get off topic really easily?   : ;)

[Neil_B]

Ok, I'll have to go down through the list here.

Ron, the rotation pictured is the old way and it would kick out as there wasn't enough spring tension to hold it in.  It would hit the log, bounce out, float back in hit the log and bounce out. would do that the whole length only touching about every foot or so. That football shaped thing is supposed to be the fence, I'm trying to come up with a better one than that. The sparks are coming from the love-joy coupler hitting inside the square box above the blade. With that self align bearing, it's creating too much play and the set screws come loose on the couplers. The opposite rotation allows it to stay in the wood. Same principle as a table saw only the pivot that the motor is mounted on is allowing it to twist too much. Thinking of making it solid. Do you think I should stick with that rotation and add more tension to the arm?

Deadheader, that's what I'm looking for only that setup looks like you'd have to keep adjusting it to follow the log. I think the design of mine was intended to follow the log on it's own course with all the pivots. Still gives me a better idea though. The blade looks like it's going the same direction as mine in the pic but it looks solidly attached to the mount so it won't kick away.

Bizie, I'll be slicin' and dicin' here soon.

Deadheader, that is an 8" dado blade in the pic. I changed to a smaller 6" dado with more teeth. Works lots better and binds less than the 8 did. I've gone ahead and cut off a portion at the front of the fence to cut down on it digging into the log and installed a small bearing at the tip to help guide it

Ohsoloco, Yeah!!

Thanks guys, keep em comin though

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi New_. I could be wrong  , but, I believe the Jones type has a chain hook-up on the upper end of the shaft that is attached to the sawhead. There is also a spring that holds tension for the blade to stay in contact with the log, but allowing it to move to conform to the size and shape of the log??

  Maybe the saw blade you have is actually trying to saw itself into the log??  I am going to try the biscuit cutter type blade, so it just "eats" at the bark. It also has carbide tips, so it should not need much sharpening??

[Lenny]

New_sawyer.The bearings you are refering to are called self alighning pillow block, or flange bearings depending on the style.The bearing should have a tight fit in the cast housing.
 The bearing insert is replaceable.Rotate the bearing 90 deg alighned with the 2 knotches on the cast housing and it pops out.
 These bearings when used with lovejoy couplings should be in pairs to give a ridged drive shaft.using only one will allow movement and or vibration because of the rubber spider between the two coupling halfs

[Ron Wenrich]

I believe the lovejoy connection is designed for movement.  I agree that they don't hold up too well in many applications.  Can you get a chain link coupler on there?

I believe a roller on the tip of your fence would help the digging in part.  You might want to try on on bottom and top held with a bolt.  It doesn't have to be anything fancy.

Mud saws do jump around a lot.  The hold down pressure in hand mills is the armstrong method.  Yours is trying to use spring pressure.  I'm not sure if heavier springs is a solution.

What species are you cutting?  If you're hitting a bunch of knots that will send the thing flying.

[Neil_B]

Deadheader, I wondered about the chainsaw type cutters that you can get for a grinder but they are only 4". Not sure if they come in a 6" or not.  ??? It's hard to tell in the pics how the Jones is tensioned.

Lennie, I'm going to look for a solid bearing and flange to replace the self align one. I wondered about getting another bearing in there but no room. The rubber spider is getting pretty whacked already.

Ron, I'll see if I can find another coupler. It has to have 5/8" bore for the motor and 3/4" bore for the arbour. Cutting hardwoods with few knots. I hoped the blade with more teeth would cut out the bouncing and it does but not a whole lot. I could try a heavier spring and if doesn't work can switch back.

[Neil_B]

Anyone know how to take apart and inspect a centrifugal clutch as pictured below? Can I just remove the allan bolts and pull it out? Will anything spring out at me if I do?

Reason I ask is I stalled the blade and the motor was running 36 horses into that clutch and it got pretty hot, really quick. Just want to inspect it to make sure it's OK.

[Jeff]

If it aint broke dont fix it.

[Mark M]

Hi New,

If it is like my Norwood Clutch (smaller), you take out the main bolt and then remove the whole unit. The outer drum can be removed. I do however agree with Jeff, if it is still working and isn't badly discolored then don't worry about it. They are designed to slip a little and can handle some heat.

Mark

[ohsoloco]

I stalled my blade in a really wide cut a while back, gave it full throttle and started to smoke the clutch...it still works just fine (but now I know not to give it gas when the blade binds up  :D )

[Neil_B]

Ok, I'll leave it alone for now. It was pretty hot though. Burnt the paint off the outside drum. I'm thinking it was slipping before the blade stopped because it didn't run that long after the blade totally quit.

[biziedizie]

New_Sawyer I say leave the clutch alone as you can't service it anyways if it's the same as mine.
  Like Mark says it's designed to slip a bit at times.
  
  Been meaning to ask you if you've ever talked to any local guys that have the same saw that you own. I think there's a guy very close to you that could maybe help you out and give you some ideas.

  Another thing I was going mention was that you might want to start a thread about different bands, like sizes and which ones to use on which logs. If I'm correct your mill can use 11/2 and 21/2 blades and I think that's giving you some problems.

  I hope things are working out for you

    Steve

[Neil_B]

Hey bizie, there is a guy in quebec and one in North Bay, On but I didn't get their names or phone numbers. I can use 1.5 and 2" but didn't get the guides for the 1.5 so I have to find my own. I wanted to try out the WM double hard for frozen wood this winter but didn't get the chance. They are 1.5".

What about speed itself affecting the slip of the clutch? Would it matter much if I'm running about 2700rpm compared to 3000. When I replaced the drive pulley from 19" to 16" I also lowered the rpm to 2700 to cut back on fuel a bit. I'm thinking I may go back to 3000 again to raise my blade speed a bit higher anyway.

[Tom]

The fuel issue is the very least of your worries.  The speed of the blade is important.  The gullet of a band blade forms a venturi that sucks the sawdust from the cut and clears the cut.  If your blade speed is too slow, you lose the venturi.  You also lose the benefit of the weight of the wheels to get you through bad places before the Governor is affected.  This makes for smoother and straighter cuts. The blade can defintely be too slow and, I'm told, there is a place where it can be too fast too.

You need to check with your manufacturer to get the optimum Feet Per Minute for your mill.  It is blade dependent but they will have the best answers because that is one of the formulas they had to solve in engineering the mill. That is also the reason that they set the RPM's of the engine at a certain point.

[Neil_B]

I don't think the fuel thing is going to be an issue anyway now that I've tried it. There wasn't much difference really, dropping it down 300rpm. It will in the long run but not worth while at this point. I need a clean cut.

The manufacturer had a different SFPM than what I calculated with the formula supplied by Suffolk. Asked if they used a different formula and no reply. I had calculated 4900sfpm and they said I was running at 5600 with the 19" drive. When I replaced the drive I dropped to a 16". I'm now at 5890. According to Suffolk that's around the speed I should be. I am using Viking blades which are supposed to be the Cdn version of Timberwolf blades from Suffolk Machinery.
5300 @ 2700rpm

3000rpm motor
5" drive
16" drive pulley
24" band wheels

[Ron Wenrich]

Wouldn't a reduction in rpm reduce the amount of power you are putting into your system?  If that's the case, that could be part of your clutch problem.

If you keep your rpm up, then the 16" driven pulley will speed up your sfpm by about 20%.  I figured 4960 to 5890.  Dropping your rpm down to 2700 gives you a 5300 sfpm.

What effect do you think the added speed is having to your guides, band bearings, etc.?

[Neil_B]

Yeah Ron, that's what I was wondering about with the reduced speed and the clutch. I don't have any specs on the clutch so I can't crunch any numbers to find out. I raised the rpm back up to 3000 again.
I'm sure the increase is going to wear on the bearings faster but I'll have to keep an eye on them to see if they are heating up. Unfortunatly my guides aren't greasable, but I'm going to replace them with a greasable unit when the time comes to change them. The bearings for the band wheels are industrial type bearings so I'm hoping they'll last. I was told that some of these machines do get set up with the 16" pulley, it was mainly a matter of preference.

[Neil_B]

Yeah! Finally got sawing some logs again yesterday.  ;D Not many but it's a start. Down today though due to the weather so went and got some parts for the debarker, using a wire brush for now. : Built a spot to pile lumber with the 4x4 cants I had. Not a production day but got some things done non-the-less.