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Author Topic: Ton to Doyle Scale?  (Read 6890 times)

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Offline dad2nine

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Ton to Doyle Scale?
« on: November 25, 2007, 11:09:44 PM »
Up until now I've been having delivered grade 1 and 2 saw timber from a few smaller family owned logging outfits by the 1000 sticked with the Doyle scale. I had another logging outfit call me Friday wanting to sell me grade 1 and 2 large diameter red and white oak saw timber by the ton. This is new to me and instead of asking stupid questions I just told the guy I would get back to him in a few days.

How do you convert ton-age to Doyle scale for a particular species? I need to get a Doyle scale estimate by the ton to see if it's a better deal by the ton or by the Doyle scale, since I already know what I'm paying by the Doyle rule and what I saw out of a Doyle scaled log. If it's a better deal, I'll jump on a few loads since QS oak moves pretty well.

I don't think this other logging out fit's driver will want to hang around while I stick each log and tally the footage.

Anyways thanks for your help...

Offline WDH

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 12:51:05 AM »
In my area, it has been 8 tons per MBF Doyle.
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Offline Gary_C

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 06:19:37 AM »
A small book I have gives the following conversions for Red Oak:

5500 lbs/cord

9150 lbs/mbf  International Scale

11,000 lbs/mbf Scribner

13,500 lbs/mbf Doyle

I have never used these conversions and they do give a disclaimer that weights will vary depending on many variables. I did make a rough estimate of some truck weights vs cords and came up with 5000 lbs per cord or 10,000 lbs per mbf Scribner but that was for smaller logs.
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 06:28:15 AM »
I've heard that 6 tons was a good rule-of-thumb.  Gary's 7 ton may also be a good number.  As said, lots of variables.  The biggest one will be in the size of the logs.  If they are big now, then the weight for Doyle and International would be pretty close.  But, if the logs are smaller, it would take a lot more weight for the Doyle scale to get 1 Mbf in the log scale.

What I would suggest is to have the logger weigh the logs, then scale it to see how that stacks up.  If this guy is a regular hauler, then I would scale a load every once in awhile just to see how things are going. 
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Offline Cedarman

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 07:34:47 AM »
When you buy by weight you take the measurement out of your hands and put them into the hands of the seller.  We buy by weight when we buy tree length cedar.  Scales can be fudged.

Since it is a lot easier to scale a load of hardwood than cedar, you can easily check and see if you are coming out ok.

Load a few of your own logs on a truck and take to a truck scales and see how  they weigh.  It will be a small sample, but will help you know the comparison. 
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Offline dad2nine

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 10:13:03 AM »
Well we grabed a fresh cut 30" DIB small end x 14' long WO and loaded it on a trailer took it to the truck scales up by the express way it came in a little over 4 and 1/2 tons and is about 600 BF according to the Doyle Scale. It has a pretty big butt flare and actually measures about 14-8" so it may not be the best log to sample.

I called up a buddy this morning who hauls a lot of green lumber, he told me a good rule of thumb is 5lbs per BF of green lumber. Some weighes less like cedar and some weighes more like water oak but it's a good rule of thumb to go by.

I think I'm going to pass on the offer from the other logging outfit, only because I have a good relationship with few of the smaller family owned logging outfits, I'm feeling kind of obligated to them, they have been very good to me. Plus I really don't need a few TTL loads of oak right now, I'm still working on sawing the TTL of cedar I got a few weeks ago - it takes me a long time to saw up TTL it's  lot of wood for one guy to saw...

Thanks for your help everyone

Offline Gary_C

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 01:45:32 AM »
Log scaling has to be one of the most difficult and controversial things about this business that you could imagine. Around here, most, but not all of the pulp mills have gone to weight scaling. And the old timers believe they get screwed over with weight scaling. They have universally accepted weights of 2.25 ton per cord for Aspen, 2.4 tons per cord for Maple regardless of hard or soft, 2.2 tons per cord for Pine, and 1.925 tons per cord for Basswood. They all agree that it is best to get it to the mill right after cutting or you will loose money as it dries out in the log.

So with weight scaling, it is best if you haul your loads in or after a snow storm. That way you can sell them the snow too, as it "all pays the same." However some mills that were able, have moved the sweepoff area outside of the scalehouse.  ::)

The other problem with weight scaling is the DOT can come into the mills and check all load tickets for the past 30 days and mail you a ticket if you were over the limit on any load.

The problem with stick scaling is what I jokingly refered to as buyers have short scale sticks. I know how to scale too, and it sure seems like all scalers just cannot reach all the way to the top of your load with their scale stick. I took a full semi load (15 cords to the top of all the 8 ft stakes) of basswood bolts to a sawmill and knowing I was watching him closely, he told me it was 14.3 cords. Then after I was unloaded, he handed me the ticket and said he thought he made a mistake with his calculator and the office would have to refigure it. When I got the check, it was for 13.1 cords. Needless to say I have not been back there.

Even with log scaling, as Ron has said, he can be "easy" or "hard" on someone on scale depending if they have tried to hide some defects or not.

Maybe some day they will come up with electronic scanners that will take all the human factors out of scaling. But until then, I think weight scaling is best for cordwood and not logs.   ;D
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 05:54:35 AM »
My understanding of pulp companies using the weight measurement is they want the green stuff. 

We also sell scragg logs and chicken wood by the ton.  Chicken wood is light weighted species like tulip poplar, and they shave it to be blown into chicken houses for bedding.  Both of these pay better than pulp.  Our pulp is mainly stuff that won't fit through the firewood processor and won't be taken in other markets.

Converting from lumber scale to log scale would be OK if you know what your waste factor is like.  I've always seen 6 lbs/bf in oak.  A cubic foot weighs 72 lbs, and there is 12 bf/cf of lumber, not logs.  The waste factor in hardwoods is about 50%.  That means that you will lose 50% of the weight due to bark, slab, edging strips, sawdust and oversizing.  That 50% factor will vary by log size.

I think you've made a good move by staying with the smaller companies.  Times are tough for some loggers, especially those that need cash for equipment payments.  When times get better, they'll forget about you and move on.  Those small companies will be around for a long time.
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Offline Brian Beauchamp

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 11:39:29 PM »
There is so much variance on this that it would be very hard to say that you have X amount of BF per ton...if you know the average diameter of the logs, a close estimate may be given, but if you know that...and the log length, then you might as well estimate BF from that.

In this publication, there is approximately a 10-ton variation between a MBF @ 10" dbh and a MBF @ 36" dbh for loblolly pine:
http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2244.pdf

Offline dad2nine

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2007, 09:05:46 PM »
The amount of knowledge in the members of this site is a little overwhelming.

Thanks guys I really appreciate you passing on your wisdom to a green horn

Offline Cedarman

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 07:38:44 AM »
Cedar is coming out of the woods in unbelievable amounts.  Every day someone calls with some cedar.  Guess who I keep buying from.  Those that brought me cedar during the times when I needed it.  Other mills are choked too and their loggers want to sell me cedar. 

Like Ron said about staying with smaller companies.

I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline WDH

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 07:44:09 AM »
In the wood business, relationships are critically important.
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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 06:54:48 PM »
Yup we eat, live and breath by those we keep around us. That is why I like it here on the forum so much. ;D
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Offline DEO_in_NC

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2020, 01:43:56 PM »
I was just told this morning by a semi retired sawmill owner of a fairly large sawmill operation that buys logs by weight, they use 6 tons per 1000 bd ft for pine, and 7 tons per 1000 bd ft on hardwood, nothing species specific, just hard or soft wood. This is in central NC. Hope that helps.

Offline SawyerTed

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2020, 07:21:20 PM »
North Carolina State University publishes a quarterly report Of Standing Timber prices for the state.  Their source is Timber Mart-South.  

The conversion factor on the quarterly report is

7.5 tons per 1,000 board feet in pine

8.75 tons per 1,000 board feet in hardwood

https://forestry.ces.ncsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/NCPR4q2019.pdf?fwd=no

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Offline Jcald327

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2020, 10:37:51 PM »
Well we grabed a fresh cut 30" DIB small end x 14' long WO and loaded it on a trailer took it to the truck scales up by the express way it came in a little over 4 and 1/2 tons and is about 600 BF according to the Doyle Scale. It has a pretty big butt flare and actually measures about 14-8" so it may not be the best log to sample.

I called up a buddy this morning who hauls a lot of green lumber, he told me a good rule of thumb is 5lbs per BF of green lumber. Some weighes less like cedar and some weighes more like water oak but it's a good rule of thumb to go by.

I think I'm going to pass on the offer from the other logging outfit, only because I have a good relationship with few of the smaller family owned logging outfits, I'm feeling kind of obligated to them, they have been very good to me. Plus I really don't need a few TTL loads of oak right now, I'm still working on sawing the TTL of cedar I got a few weeks ago - it takes me a long time to saw up TTL it's  lot of wood for one guy to saw...

Thanks for your help everyone
See this is the stuff that concerns me, it's mostly the inaccuracies of the log scales.  I'm hauling with a half ton (I know not a great idea, although it is a 3.5 EcoBoost rated at like 11,200), and my last load last week was some fairly big white oak logs for a tree service.  My last load of 4 logs (3 big white oak and a small hickory), came out to I think a hair under 700bf doyle.  At 7 pounds a bf for green hickory, that's 5k pounds, at 5.5 for white oak it's only 3500, but my biggest log netted around 350 @ 12 feet I think, putting It at 26 on the small end, this was loaded 1 end at a time because the skid loader wouldn't budge it and I'm convinced it was every bit of 4000 pounds in just that 1 log.  I really do want to stay within limits of both the law, and my trucks limits, but that load felt heavier than the skid steer felt at 5600 pounds without the grapple leading me to believe I was close to 10-11k.
I am resorting to measuring small and big end and using legnth to make a tapered cylinder and finding volume and multiplying it times green wood weight chart as the doyle scale has been known to favor the mill for small logs, and pay quiet well for the large ones.
I've got a 52 inch DBH hickory to haul when the weather permits here, and while my trailer has 2 7k axles, it looks like a 3-4 trip haul to stay within limits.
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Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2020, 11:46:48 PM »
Jcald327,

Although there is some variation for green weights per species, according to several published research studies, trying to figure log weights by scale predicted board footage is subject to many possible errors; and is more complicated.  There are formulas for calculating log weights, both here in the Forum toolbox, on the internet, and included in many phone apps including SawLogCalc (if you are lucky enough to have an Android phone).  

Those apps use a method similar to the one you mentioned; average log diameter and the length, to figure the cubic footage and then multiply that by standard weights per cubic foot for green logs by species.  For example, most hickories show around 61 pounds per cubic foot (slightly over 5 lbs. per board foot), oaks a few pounds per cubic foot heavier.  

When figuring weights of green lumber, if you mill 4/4 at 1 1/8" thickness, that 12 board feet is actually 1.125 cubic feet (or 10.67 bf p/cu.ft.).  

The apps come in handy when hauling logs where you don't have a scale.  Knowing the approximate weight is always important... your safety and/or the load capacity of your equipment is important for every trip, enforcement is only a concern if you get stopped.
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Offline jeepcj779

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2020, 11:56:42 PM »
Do the charts you are using give you recoverable wood, or the total amount of wood in a log? If using Doyle, International, etc., don't those give you recoverable bdft after sawing? This would not include waste. I don't know what the ratio of recoverable to waste is, but I think they could underestimate the weight of a log by quite a bit. So a 36" WO log 16' long might scale 1024 bdft (Doyle), and weigh 5632 lbs @5.5/bdft. If underestimated by 25%, the log could actually weigh just over 7500lbs. I think the cylinder method based on the average diameter of both ends of the log would be most accurate for determining volume.

Offline Jcald327

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2020, 12:01:18 AM »
Hey now that's awesome!  This takes so many steps out of my math, rather than 1 site for cylinder volume, using a calculator to change to bf, another site listing weight per bf, and finally back to calculator.  I had used the one on this site but didnt know how I trusted it when it only asked for diameter at middle.  
Fantastic resource, and if you input the small diameter, it will populate what the doyle scale expects on the big end, pretty neat.
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Offline Jcald327

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2020, 12:12:53 AM »
Do the charts you are using give you recoverable wood, or the total amount of wood in a log? If using Doyle, International, etc., don't those give you recoverable bdft after sawing? This would not include waste. I don't know what the ratio of recoverable to waste is, but I think they could underestimate the weight of a log by quite a bit. So a 36" WO log 16' long might scale 1024 bdft (Doyle), and weigh 5632 lbs @5.5/bdft. If underestimated by 25%, the log could actually weigh just over 7500lbs. I think the cylinder method based on the average diameter of both ends of the log would be most accurate for determining volume.
Everything I've read says the doyle scale underestimates wood in stuff under way 30 inches small and, does good 30-40, and will overestimate recovery above say 40 inches.  
I will say my last cheery I milled, for quality where the customer wanted basically 100 percent clear heartwood, I still managed to eak out the same yeild that the doyle scale was calling for.  This didnt account for a roughly 2.5 x 2.5 of pith, and a lot of sapwood waste (I think 2.5 worth).  This is why I dont use my receipts from the mill to gauge my weight, but I know if they get up around the 1mbf mark, even on something like poplar, I'm getting pretty far up there weight wise.  
I also know there are discrepancies between season, and moisture content, but I will probably add 1 inch to all my measurements knowing I will add 5 percent or so worth of safety margin.
I'm supposed to be taking delivery on a 1981 c60 pretty soon here, so I should be able to get closer to the1-2mbf mark on my loads (makes me realize how bad I'm doing when I see full 3 bunk trucks come in and dump 4-5mbf, but I'm not trying to be on their level).
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Offline jeepcj779

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2020, 12:38:15 AM »
I just downloaded the SawLogCalc app. I now think that is the best method for determining the weight and recoverable volume of a log (thanks Tom the Sawyer).

Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2020, 04:22:11 PM »
The app calculates the weight estimate using the entered small end diameter, length and species.  It estimates the large end based on standard taper.  Length can be entered in feet/inches, or digital feet.  Use true length, not rounded down.  Log weight does not change, regardless of the bf scale you use.

A big white oak was mentioned earlier; 36" (SED?)x16'.  The app figures the large end at 46 3/4" and a estimated weight of 9800 pounds (@ 65 lb/cu.ft.).  
Doyle - 1024 bf, Scribner - 950 bf, Scribner Table - 920 bf, International 1/4" - 980 bf, International 1/8" - 1085 bf; all same log.
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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2020, 11:07:16 PM »
Yup I'm loving playing around with the app, except it added another 2000 pounds to one of the logs I'm about to try to move.  59.5 above the bell, 60 inches 12 feet up thanks to a fork, white oak @ 15000 pounds.  How oh how to get this to the mill.  Had to call my buddy with an f450 and a 20k trailer and now to make some big friggen ramps to roll it up the side of the trailer.  Thinking 4x4 .25 steel, 10 foot long, and another piece of 4x4 under it 9 feet long resulting in a pair of 8x4 ramps.  Time to bust out the engineering handbook for beam deflection.
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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2020, 11:41:30 PM »
Can't you take your Lucas Slabber to the log? Sounds like it is going to be a bunch of trouble to get moved otherwise.

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2020, 12:55:11 AM »
I honestly dont want to sit on 3k bf of oak, I want the 2500$ to pay off the mill faster.  White oak is kinda in the crapper here, I've seen t+g solid white oak flooring in the 2-3$ bf range, it's not worth my time to cut store and dry to hope to get 2$ when I can get 1$ a bf off the majority of it right now. (may cut some of the smaller limbs and such in the 20-25 inch range).


***edit*** looks like 8x4 steel made from 2 4x4s will deflect around half an inch on a 15k log split between 2 10 foot beams.  Use the winch over the top and back to the trailer to roll it.  Should only tax my winch (12k) at 3k pulling force (since the log acts as a pulley) as long as she rolls ok with a 15 degree angle.  Sounds so simple right?
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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2020, 01:15:15 AM »
Well, a pulley is a simple machine...anyway, don't forget to shore up under the sides of your buddy's 20K trailer. I suspect a 20K trailer can carry about 15K of payload, and it may not appreciate having that 15K rolling up all on one side. I would be interested to know how the F450 handles the load - I just bought one a couple months ago. Have fun and good luck.

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2020, 07:55:04 AM »
Definitely will, hoping to have it moved in the next 2 weeks, we are waiting through 2-3 days of rain, 1 clear day, 2-3 days of rain etc these days. 
Truck in question is a 2013 f450 with like a 7500 pound payload.  Hes tipped the scales in the mid to to high 30s before, absolutely sure the truck will handle roughly 45k gross combined.

For the brains on here, how do you go about rating older vehichles that have a gross combined rating from the factory.  Specifically asking about a an 81 c60 with a gvw of 26k, I've seen them rated at almost 45k but this is forum scuttlebutt, not DOT info.  Everything I've read says if cross 26k I need a cdl, but can I say put 14 in the bed (putting it at 26k) and tow another 12 if I get the cdl?
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Offline SawyerTed

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2020, 08:38:30 AM »
Go to your stateís CDL Handbook.  It will have a flow chart that will answer your question.  That flow chart is a federally designed flow chart that most states have adopted. I went through all of this about a year ago.  Registering the license tag weight is another piece of the puzzle.  So is the DOT number.

A Gross Vehicle Weight Rating is basically the weight rating of the loaded truck.  If it is above 26,000 a CDL is required.  A truck GVRW over 26,000 and a trailer GVRW over 10,000 requires a Class A CDL.

Edit - from what I can tell the GVWR for a 1981 C60 is 24,000. GCRW is 45,000.  According to the flow chart, you start with GCWR - If the combined weight is 26,001 or over AND the trailer is rated at 10,001 or more, a class A is required.  Even if the truck is under 26,001, if the trailer puts the combined over 26,001 and the trailer is over 10,000 the Class A CDL is required.

Again get the CDL manual for your state.  The chances of one of us explaining the regulations and how they apply to you accurately arenít very good.  Explaining to a highway patrolman or a weigh station officer that ďa guy on the internet told meĒ wonít turn out well!
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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2020, 06:31:31 AM »
Definitely will, hoping to have it moved in the next 2 weeks, we are waiting through 2-3 days of rain, 1 clear day, 2-3 days of rain etc these days.
Truck in question is a 2013 f450 with like a 7500 pound payload.  Hes tipped the scales in the mid to to high 30s before, absolutely sure the truck will handle roughly 45k gross combined.

For the brains on here, how do you go about rating older vehichles that have a gross combined rating from the factory.  Specifically asking about a an 81 c60 with a gvw of 26k, I've seen them rated at almost 45k but this is forum scuttlebutt, not DOT info.  Everything I've read says if cross 26k I need a cdl, but can I say put 14 in the bed (putting it at 26k) and tow another 12 if I get the cdl?
My experience is the 26,000# is about all the weight I would want with a C60. Move your equipment pulling a trailer or loading the bed to capacity. You won't pull much of hill if you try and do both at the same time.

Offline Jcald327

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2020, 11:39:12 PM »
I had seen the gvwr at 26k, but I couldn't find the gcwr, so thanks for that.  I've dug through the flowcharts and concur, tenneessee appears to nearly follow the fed regulations.  I almost bought a brand new diesel this week, and decided the c60 will keep me out of cdl land for awhile, while still allowing me to move just about (but not quiet) what my truck and fully loaded trailer would weigh combined, all without a cdl. 

Thanks FF, once again ;)
Lucas 8-27 w/ slabber
Husqvarna 395xp 32, 42 inch
Rancher 455 24 inch
Stihl 271 20 inch
Grandberg 66 alaska mill
Lowrider cnc 4x8 capacity
Logrite mega 78 and 60

Offline Banjo picker

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2020, 03:16:15 PM »
Thanks for that app Tom.  Do you have the fee one or pay the $2.99 for the pro version.  I just got the free one....wondering what advantages the other one has.  Banjo
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Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2020, 10:45:00 PM »
I bought the Pro version, it is well worth the money.  I'm not sure of all the differences, but it does let you keep multiple tallies on it, also lets you export the tallies by email or text.  I've had the Pro version so long I don't remember what the free versions limitations were.
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