What's the best blade for for swingmilling?

[brdmkr]

LOGDOG,

That was  a pretty good explanation.  I found it very interesting.   Thanks. 

[Nate Surveyor]

Before you all get too worked up over fancy stuff, here is one that you should place in your "info to consider" pile. Now, I really wish to say I did read this 'Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.' Quoted from somebody's profile. And loved it. And agree with it. But, now I'm gonna drive real close to doing just that!! :D :D

OK, Yesterday, me mill was running perfectly. Chips were just a flyin, and a good friend was tailing, and I was making a bunch of Full 1" x 9" oak boards for his shelving. As I PULLED in the vertical, suddenly, the blade veered off to my right, facing the mill. (to the left, referenced to the direction of cut) It moved over a full 1/8" inch. I finished the cut, and as I exited the cut, heard that 'noise' where the tension on the blade is released. So, I slowly went the wrong way, and CUT backwards (pushing in the vertical) down the cut until I reached the "point of veer". Then, I slowly pulled the saw through the cut. I went back and forth several times, until the board I was cutting was just near perfect, but the kerf near the end of cut was wide. I then flipped to horizontal, and made my releasing cut to remove the board. (Standard procedure for milling solo)
For the next cut, I moved over about 3/8" to re-true the log, and proceeded to mill the log. Whenever I came to that same POINT OF VEER, I slowed down, and let it chew slowly through a VERY hard crooked knot.
My point is that a log with varying densities, and crooked knots can do stuff that CANNOT be fixed, except by paying attention, and MAKING it mill straight. The rest of the lumber in this log came off fine. It was a big white oak log.
The general condition of the blade was a few chipped teeth, and it was pretty sharp.

There are circumstances where the blade is probably not at fault, but the log is. No amount of blade changing, or modification would have helped me yesterday. And I have a nice trailer load of full 1" x 9" oak boards. Errors are all less than a MM! (I love lumber like that!)

One thing to keep in mind is that the blade (on deep cuts) is a plane. Get the plane going at a funky angle, and it tends to keep going that way. And quality of dimension goes down. I hope this helps somebody.

Nate

[scsmith42]

Landon - that's a fascinating explanation about tooth angle and it's impact on the cutting process.  I'm going to have to look at that more closely the next time that I mill.  Thanks for sharing.

Nate - very good points.

Scott

[LOGDOG]

Before you all get too worked up over fancy stuff, here is one that you should place in your "info to consider" pile. Now, I really wish to say I did read this 'Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.' Quoted from somebody's profile. And loved it. And agree with it. But, now I'm gonna drive real close to doing just that!! :D :D

OK, Yesterday, me mill was running perfectly. Chips were just a flyin, and a good friend was tailing, and I was making a bunch of Full 1" x 9" oak boards for his shelving. As I PULLED in the vertical, suddenly, the blade veered off to my right, facing the mill. (to the left, referenced to the direction of cut) It moved over a full 1/8" inch. I finished the cut, and as I exited the cut, heard that 'noise' where the tension on the blade is released. So, I slowly went the wrong way, and CUT backwards (pushing in the vertical) down the cut until I reached the "point of veer". Then, I slowly pulled the saw through the cut. I went back and forth several times, until the board I was cutting was just near perfect, but the kerf near the end of cut was wide. I then flipped to horizontal, and made my releasing cut to remove the board. (Standard procedure for milling solo)
For the next cut, I moved over about 3/8" to re-true the log, and proceeded to mill the log. Whenever I came to that same POINT OF VEER, I slowed down, and let it chew slowly through a VERY hard crooked knot.
My point is that a log with varying densities, and crooked knots can do stuff that CANNOT be fixed, except by paying attention, and MAKING it mill straight. The rest of the lumber in this log came off fine. It was a big white oak log.
The general condition of the blade was a few chipped teeth, and it was pretty sharp.

There are circumstances where the blade is probably not at fault, but the log is. No amount of blade changing, or modification would have helped me yesterday. And I have a nice trailer load of full 1" x 9" oak boards. Errors are all less than a MM! (I love lumber like that!)

One thing to keep in mind is that the blade (on deep cuts) is a plane. Get the plane going at a funky angle, and it tends to keep going that way. And quality of dimension goes down. I hope this helps somebody.

Nate

   I'm sorry Nate ...could you do us a favor and clarify which of us you were referring to as the "idiot" that you'd be arguing with? FYI ...we make it a practice here on the forum to avoid insulting remarks in reference to any of our members.  :

LOGDOG

[Nate Surveyor]

Whellll, Mr Logdog, I was referring to meself :-\ :-\ :-\

Sorry. I mebbe better refrain from insulting meself!

(back to see me shrink!)


Nate

[woodbowl]

We have been considering the differences between lucas VS Peterson blades in the deep cut. I would like to present a scenario of the differences in the shallow cuts to hopefully understand the gradual changes in performance and maybe shed some light in another area.

Starting at 2", then 4"& 6" in hard wood then soft wood.

The questions are:

1- Do the two blades cut equally "fast" at certain shallow depths?

2- Which blade is slightly faster at each depth?

3- Is there a particular shallow depth of cut, where Lucas excells?

4- At what depth of cut does the speed of Lucas fall away from Peterson?

[Nate Surveyor]

Sorry. I was "Draggin ya'all down to me level & beat'n ya wit me 'sperience! (And idiot's 'sperience at that!)

And, thanks for the explanation Logdog.

I'm still in the romance stage, and enjoying me mill!

[solodan]

I agree with Nate, I think alot of problems, if not most are caused by  log tension,not the blade.  Logdog is right the size of the shavings produced will change with the depth of the cut, and I think it was a very good explanation.  Woodbowl, I think that the blade speed issue is a tough one to call, cause we are not really comparing apples to apples. ???  The Peterson blade may cut faster in theory, but it may not cut faster in the real world. There are just to many variables, like track sag and bounce. A faster cutting blade is not really faster if you need to slow down due to saw bounce, something that has plagued every Peterson operator, but seems to be almost non existent for Lucas owners.  Maybe the Peterson geometry blade on a Lucas may be fastest, ??? or vise versa. ??? I imagine the shop built swingers are far more rigid than either the Peterson or Lucas, so there could be variables there as well that would effect cutting, and perhaps a different geometry blade is needed in this case.

[brdmkr]

Just thought I would comment that this is one of my favorite threads! 

[Captain]

EVERY Peterson owner does NOT experience bounce.  ONLY large frame ones do (ATS, WPF 6" and 8")

My small frame WPFs (I've had 3 and cut with dozens more) never bounce.

Captain

[Nate Surveyor]

I had better add that PUSHING in the vertical is clearly posted as DANGEROUS, and I should not have done it. 

Probably should have moved the blade over, and come back pulling down the cut again in the vertical.

"Dangerous" Nate :'( :'(

[solodan]

EVERY Peterson owner does NOT experience bounce.  ONLY large frame ones do (ATS, WPF 6" and 8")

Sorry,  :-[ didn't mean anything by it really. Just that there are lots of variables. Just curious Captain, how wide can the narrow frame cut? Do you guys use the same blade on the wide and narrow? 

[brdmkr]

Just for the record, the Lucas can bounce too.  It does not happen often with my mill,  but it can happen.  I just always wrote it off to pulling too fast or tension.  It seems that I may have been blaming tension for a lot of things that just might not be so.

[LOGDOG]

Don't be too hard on yourself Nate. We can all relate to your enthusiasm for milling.

Woodbowl ... As to your last question, I'd have to say that the man that could best answer that is one who had run both the Lucas and the Peterson for an extended period of time and did not represent either company ( to eliminate bias ). Off the top of my head I can't think of a Forum member who has had both. Do we have anyone in that category?


I agree with Nate, I think alot of problems, if not most are caused by  log tension,not the blade.
Solodan ... I have to take exception to that statement (respectfully). Only because when I'm milling and I notice that my lumber isn't turning out the way I want it for one reason or another, 99.999% of the time it is the BLADE and not the log. I can be cutting in a pile of 30,000 board feet of logs harvested from the same job, grown at the same rate etc and when the board quality changes usually it's the sharpness of my blade, in the case of my bands maybe a loss of set, or in the case of my swinger a loss of tension. My 2 cents ...


As to bounce ... Bounce is kinda like the pink elephant in the room - no one wants to admit it's there. I'm glad to see Captain mention that he's seen it in other Peterson mills. I had a ton of bounce with my ASM. I'd call up (down under) wanting to know how to fix the bounce in deep cuts and it was like "Bounce? What do you mean bounce? Hand over the phone, over the shoulder... hey y'all know anything about any bounce? Nope no bounce over here."  : (I had just a little bit of fun with that. Don't hold it against me peterson crew.) I had both vertical bounce and horizontal bounce in deep cuts. The only way to consistantly avoid it was to divide the cut in half to decrease the load.


LOGDOG

[woodsteach]

, or in the case of my swinger a loss of tension. My 2 cents ...



LOGDOG

[/quote]

Logdog,  thank you for your explination, now would you please educate me on the loss of tension and how to re-tension the blade.

woodsteach

[LOGDOG]

Woodsteach,

   I'll share with you what I know. If you have some specific questions that I'm not able to answer I can call my saw doc and relay it to you. But .... it will have to wait until this evening. I've gotta get some paperwork out. Yikes!

LOGDOG

[LOGDOG]

Ok Woodsteach ... didn't finish my paperwork but it'll wait until the morning.

   A couple things on tension. Normally whoever you buy your blades from will have some recommendations on tension. A blade that runs at say 3650 rpms needs less tension than one that runs at say 1725. The 3650 has more inertia to help it "stand up" whereas the 1750 needs a head start and therefore would need to be tighter.

   Tensioning is usually done with a roller. Blade laid flat say, on a collar, fastened and then there will be a wheel above and maybe even below that comes up to meet the body of the saw. Pressure is applied to the body of the blade while the blade is rotated. These rollers can be applied either close to the collar or farther out. The closer to the collar, the tighter the tension will be. To get a mental picture of it stand up with both arms out to your side - straight out from your shoulders. That would be 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock (flat). A blade that is tight would look something like you moving your arms to 11 and 1 o'clock. A loose blade would look maybe like 10 and 2 o'clock. (Just to paint the picture.)

   I'm not sure how other saw docs measure tension but mine had built a jig that had a collar. It locked the saw in place. Then there were two air operated cylinders spread apart that would apply pressure to the body of one side of the saw. On the other side he had a dial indicator that could measure deflection when the pressure was applied. All it was was a way of having a control - something to go from. With trial and error we found that x amount of pressure applied with a deflection of y gave us z for an accurate running tension.

   I'll just mention it because I've seen a mis-statement in the past about tension and hammering. They are two different animals. One cups or dishes the blade = tension. The other - hammering, is the flattening of knots in the body of the blade. These knots will look like a round, blue hotspot.

   Loss of tension can occur from the blade binding or excessive heat. We've even seen in the past where sunshine shining in through the window of a mill onto the blade heating it up will weaken the blade and cause it to lose tension. (Big circle saws) Having a cant sit down on top of a blade in the horizontal position to the point where the saw snubs would be a good way to creat a knot or possible loss of tension.

   To do this saw work yourself Woodsteach would require a fair amount of investment in tools and training. I believe there's a class in Minneapolis each year for saw docs. I spent probably 30 hours with my saw doc in his shop going over this stuff. You might be able to find a similar type fella out there that would let you look over his shoulder while he does it.

   Anything else I missed? Going to get a sandwich.

LOGDOG

[woodsteach]

Isn't this place just GREAT 8) 8).  LOGDOG thankyou for all of the information that you have provided, it will take sometime to digest.

woodsteach

[LOGDOG]

Here's a good link to Armstrong Saws website. They sell tensioning and leveling equipment and there is a good explanation along with pictures of the machines.

http://www.armstrongblue.com/sawshop/SR.htm

and

http://www.armstrongblue.com/sawshop/CSL.htm

LOGDOG

[Captain]

Solodan, the small frame cuts a 4' diameter log (with no additional blocking   ;)) and everything about it is the same as the large frame, except the large frame   ;D

[Firebass]

My problems have been solved   At this point I feel like the stupidest person on the ff.  And I just may be. 
Thanks to all of the post in this thread I decided to dig a little deeper into way my mill seemed to be on the weak side.  Keep in mind I never ran or seen a sawmill in action other than one 5min session at a forestry show a week before I finished my mill.  In the beginning I purchased a used Kohler 25hp motor to use on my mill that I picked up on Craigslist for $500.00 bucks.   The owner said it was in good shape.  And I just assumed it was in good shape.  After all it sounded good started easy and idled down to a nice little purr and was clean oil included.  So that's what's on my mill now.  Also keep in mind I have cut over 12,000 BF of lumber with this mill.  *&^%$#@! 

Now for the shame   I decided to do a compression test...  Pulled the first spark plug.   Too my amazement it looked like it had never been out of the box   I mean brand new.   I instantly got one of those feelings that you get when you really screwed up something.  I then quickly grabbed the spark plug wire and ram'd the plug in it, grounded it and hit the starter....
GUESS WHAT.... no spark.  In fact I had been running my mill with one cylinder since the beginning.
Coil was DEAD OUT.   Today I put a new coil in it and fired it up : : All I can say is "i just hang my head in shame" and thank those of you that conveyed the fact that 25 HP and a well set up blade should fly though the wood.  Today (Now running on 2 cylinders) I let it run for about 5 minutes it burned off (Like in FIRE) all the sawdust that had packed around the exhaust manifold then burned of the right side high temp paint that I had painted the muffler last spring.  

Now I don't really know what damage is if any. But the fact that I was sawing with a 25 HP Motor on one cylinder would mean I most likely would have been lucky to be getting 8HP from it.  It Now seem like a fire breathing dragon.  I can't wait till tommaro to dig into a log and see what it can do.... ;D

As for the saw blade I guess I'll have the torque to wreck some blades now.

Oh yea one more thing "Captain"  I never had a bad fuel pump after all.....  Just a gas pumper into my crankcase from the piston on cylinder 2. :'(

:'(Firebass :'(

[solodan]

I think that is what makes this place so great, we can come here and think out loud, and the result is, many problems have been solved right here on this Forum. Firebass you should not be ashamed, you should be patting  yourself on the back. I think so many of us are truly amazed at what you built, especially since you had never really been around sawmills.  8)  It is guys like you and Dangerous Dan that makes what we do possible. Without modern day designers and fabricaters, lots of us would still be using pit saws, and felling with misery whips. :D

Logdog, thanks for the info on blade tension.

And yes, for the record I have experienced bounce with the Lucas, just not very often.

[Captain]

Me thinks Steve did not sleep well last night in anticipation.....good show FireBass.

Captain

[Nate Surveyor]

An apology is in order.

I am a new miller. I am excited to have a mill. (What good is a man without a mill?) Anyway, it is something I love.

Now, the apology. I have been a little too quick to give advice, and "jump right in there" with my inexperience. Some of the stuff I have took off with and run with may not be quite right. Sorry to anybody that I have misled.

So, please take my advice with a grain of salt. (maybe a whole shaker load) and categorize me with the beginners. Something tells me I may never graduate from beginner, as I am a part time miller, who is NOT financially dependent on my mill, as some of you are. If I were, I think I'd learn faster.

I have been well intentioned, but not necessarily seasoned well.

Get your facts from more experienced millers.

I have gotten a mild reprimand, and commentary from one of the more seasoned fellows on the forum, (one of the administrators). And having considered it, feel that I have to
1.) warn you about me.
2.) slow down a bit about any advice, and listen more.
3.) come forward and tell you

So, I will be reading more, and listening more from here on, and checking my facts.

I am a part time, hobby miller. I live in a mobile home, with 6 kids, and run a small land survey business from a small office. We really need a bigger house. So, I bought the Peterson Mill to build it. Having fun, but still have to get the job done. The kids cabin is my first construction project. I am trying to learn as fast as I can, and still I know that I will somehow leave something out of my fact pile, when I build, because there is simply so much to learn. Debt is something that hinders large families. We want to build with no debt.

I will be posting less, and advising still less, to none. But, I still love the smell of a fresh pile of sticker stacked pine.

God Bless, and see you good folks around. I'll still be here, but more quietly.

Nate

[Firebass]

Well the results today cutting with both cylinders firing:

WOW!!!!!

I can best now describe it as "Aggressive"  I was cutting 2x6's about as fast as mowing with the lawn mower after school so I could go ride my motorcycle when complete.  2x8's just as fast but like Dan mentioned on the horizontal cut,  I got a bit of dive so had to back off.   My gas mileage is way better as well.

Thanks
Again Everyone for your post.

Encluding Nate,  and no apology needed here;)

Firebass