Wind power...what a joke!

[ibseeker]

I wonder how many people really believe that wind power is a viable energy source? If you are one of those people then I suggest that you do a little research and quit buying the environmentalist's pitch.

Fact: During the 2006 peak energy demand period (summer) for the US there were 80,000 mw's of wind generation available of which 8,000 mw's were actually online (had wind to turn the gen). That's a heck of a return, ain't it!

Fact: Reliability is the scorecard in the utility industry. Wind is totally unreliable. Balancing generation to customer load is critical, you can't keep the lights on without that balance. How do you figure out how much power to buy to supply your customer demand when wind is so unreliable? The answer is to keep more generator's in a regulation mode and have them ramp to make up for the wind that didn't show up. That's not efficient but it's what we're left with.

I don't know anyone knowledgable in the operations side of the electric industry who supports wind. It's never there when you need it and when you don't the DanG wind blows like crazy, requiring other units to back down or trip the wind generators.

Where do they site wind generators? It's not close to load centers, thus requiring transmission to get that power to market.....who pays for those transmission upgrades, we do! The customers, not the wind gen owner's!  This is true of most generation sites. However, with other types of generation at least part of the return on investment is reliability.
Wind generators have no dynamic reserve and offer no help to system stability or recovery. When things get rough, the wind units are the first ones gone. Generation response is critical to system response.

Wind is part of the alternative energy solution but it's not a reliable part and unreliable energy is worse than no energy.

I'm 100% behind alternative energy sources but I don't like how wind is being blown up to be more than it is.

[Dave Shepard]

 

[florida]

And every kilowatt of  wind energy in America is subsidized to the tune of $23.37 per megawatt hour of electricity produced, according to the Wall Street Journal. In contrast, coal and natural gas are only subsidized  to a tune of $0.44 and $0.25, respectively. Without that subsidy there would be no windmills at all.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Seems like we could but the windmills outside of Washington D.C. and have lots of cheap power.

[Gary_C]

I don't have many facts, but what we have here in Minnesota and Iowa is not a joke. In both states 7.5 % of our in state electrical energy generating capacity is from the wind. Also there are some gas turbine peaking plants under construction and their utilization is lower than the wind energy generators.

And we sure like those windmills better than we like that proposal before the Surface Transportation Board to route up to 50 coal trains per day right thru many towns and cities to supply coal to those eastern investor owned utilities. Talk about energy efficiency, what is the efficiency of running those large coal trains all the way from Montana to the east coast and back again. And I suppose there were no government subsidies in those coal leases in the west nor in the railroads that plan to profit from all that business.

[StorminN]

ibseeker,

If wind generators really don't work, you better hurry up and tell Germany, Spain, Denmark, Norway, Japan, India, China, etc. that they don't, because they've had them up and running there for decades now.

The fact is, they do work, but yes... they work differently than a plant running a coal, gas, or nuclear powered turbine. Wind generators are not the end-all solution, but they certainly can do a great deal to help.

I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here... perhaps we all would be better off if we could all just learn to use less? I know it's not the American way, but perhaps we might have to resort to that. I've done energy-saving measures in my home and cut my usage down about 2/3rd, to about 6KWh a day. That's with electric hot water, fridge, deep freeze, but propane range and dryer. Now I just wish I had the means to install a PV array on my roof to produce part of that 6KWh... and if everyone could and would do this, we'd all be better off.

P.S. To the people that think wind turbines are ugly, I say beauty is in the eye of the beholder... I like them! I saw these ones while flying in to Copenhagen last year...



-Norm.

[ibseeker]

GaryC, the problem lies with the difference between capacity and actual output. During peak energy demand having only 10% of available capacity on line reveals how misleading wind power is. I'm not an advocate of fossil fuel generation but until there is a good balance between alternative energy sources and truly reliable energy sources our economy requires reliable energy and for now that means fossil fuels. I'm becoming more of a proponent of nuclear power, at least as a way to carry us over until better forms of alternative energy is on line. Peaker plants are not as efficient as the newer combined cycle units are but they too provide a valuable service during peak demand. This is more of a problem in the west than in the Eastern Interconnection. You guys have a lot of generation by comparison.
Your comments about the coal trains off-setting any energy efficiency is pretty difficult to challenge or even disagree with because it is so transparent. I wouldn't want those trains running through my town either.

florida, that's really interesting info on the subsidies. I hadn't heard anything about that. When you consider that prior to deregulation of the electric industry we were paying $25-30 per megawatt, those numbers are even more disturbing.

[Warbird]

Don?  Is that you?  Don Quixote?  ;) ;D

[Jeff]

I certainly believe in it.

[thedeeredude]

Is electrical energy lost by transporting it from a plant to a home miles and miles away?  Like the amount of power generated to the amount that makes it to the homes, is there a  gap?  I think it would be nice to have smaller power generation stations in towns supplying electricity to individual towns and communities.  Around here the methane from dairy farms could be used and the methane from the sewage treatment plants.  And we have enough landfills to burn that trash for power generation.  I like to take advantage of sunlight, it naturally brightens a room and is free.

[Osric]

So...let me get this straight...

Because wind power is scarce in the USA, you use statistics showing it is scarce and therefore conclude that wind power is a joke.

Let me ask you a couple questions....

how reliable do you think coal power was when the first plants were built?  Think they met demand with no problems?

Do you think that as more wind turbines are built that the cost of the turbines will increase or decrease?

Do you think that the more turbines built will increase or decrease their reliability?

Do you think that as a country, we are intelligent enough to find ways of storing excess power when there are surpluses?


What is really a joke are EDITED BY ADMIN!!! who dismiss alternatives and think we can blindly trudge along in the old ways.  Well...no, it isn't a joke.  It is far too serious of a subject for it to be a joke.

Wind is one part of the solution.  Solar is another part.  Bio-technology, geothermal, wave-energy and a dozen other things are the solutions.  Thinking that we can't overcome the issue is the real problem.

[Gary_C]

Well, I am back. I was just reading the latest posts and at the bottom of the page was this banner ad for Wind Generators. So I followed that trail.  :D :D

Boy that Google is efficient.  ;D

Even if there are operating characteristics of wind generators that are not as good as other electrical generators, I think they are a very good thing. They do not need to burn any coal or oil and do not polute, well not if you ignore the bird lovers that call them giant bird blenders.  ;D

But overall I believe nuclear power is the best long term solution to our electrical power needs. Yes with nuclear, there are risks. However there are also risks on our highways where we kill almost 40,000 people per year and when is the last time you heard of anyone dying in a nuclear power accident.

[Dave Shepard]

I like wind power. There, I said it, now: 


Dave

[brdmkr]

I like any form of energy generation that helps further the technology that will be needed to get us off our addiction to foreign oil.  Unfortunately, it seems that so much R&D is being spent on alternative energy and relatively little is being spend on conservation.  It will take both to have sustainable energy for our kids and grandkids.

[StorminN]

... well not if you ignore the bird lovers that call them giant bird blenders.  ;D

Wind generators only kill dumb birds ;D :D.

Seriously, though... studies have busted this myth, the utility-sized wind generators spin slowly and kill very few birds, something on the order of 1000x less than the average house cat.

-N.

[Handy Andy]

  Seems to me, that if we have to have excess energy production, because the wind generators are not reliable because the wind is not reliable, that they should use the excess power to produce hydrogen.  Then the hydrogen could be burned when it becomes excess.  Does that make any sense? 

[fuzzybear]

   wind is what is powering this computer I am typing on.  I live completely off grid and would not have it any other way.  Wind power is a viable source of power as long as they are placed in the proper places. I live in the middle of the river valley so I have lots of wind and solar power.
   I also use the river to power an old Air Force gen set.  I have over 1,000,000 hp available to me during the summer months.  The next mill will be electric and powered by the river.
    I have one friend who is creating electricity from the static discharge of simple water. It is to advanced for me to understand but he built a system from the parts found at the dump and is powering his home now.
   This is the same guy that runs a 160 amp alternator in the winter by harnessing the energy output from his chimney. I am curently building the same system (after I get these 10,000 other projects complete).
   There is a wealth of knowledge available on the internet. Some is way too advanced for me and others are so simple that you wonder why you never thought of it.  kinda like my new solar hot water heater, total cost for building $3.18, that was for the roll of duct tape. The rest of the system came from the dump.
   This is all on a small scale operation, but if more people in the rural areas of the world can utilize this technology the dependancy on coal and gas would drop considerably.  To date my alternative energy system has cost me around $10,000 over the last 15 years. I have total freedom from the "grid".  I always have power, even when the sun doesn't shine for days and it's -50 outside.
   The potential for energy creation is only limited by the human imagination.
   

[Radar67]

Fuzzy, how about a thread on the alternator powered by the chimney?

[Ianab]

Most of the new generation capacity built in New Zealand over the last 10 years has been wind generators. None of them are subsidised, the operators calculate they will pay for themselves in 15 years, and last for 30. So it is an economic option.

The generators are sited on spots where there is usefull wind for like 75% of the time.

NZ is however fortunate to have the majority of power generated from hydro power. There is plenty peak generating power, but only limited storage in the lakes. So any power generated by wind means the hydros can be shut down to conserve water.

Of course if there is no wind AND no rain.. we are in trouble.

But building wind generator in a poor wind area is just a waste of time and money.

Ian

[stonebroke]

People are confusing reliablity and intermittent capacity. Wind turbines are very reliable. But they have intermittent capacity.  This means that they do not run all the time. Most alt. energy is this way. Solar does not work at night. Hydro works when the water is flowing, unless you have a large impoundment area. So intermittment capacity is the nature of the beast. You just have to find ways to work around it. Peak plants are a fact of life now. Elec. Demand varies greatly during the day and night and theelec. company copes. until you get a large number od wind turbines on line it is not a problem at all. Remember every kilowatt of power that comes from a wind turbine is a kilowatt  that is not generated by fossil fuels.

Stonebroke

[bull]

Hmmm, if you reduce your energy cost by 50% you have gain of 50%...
Simple reduction will reduce demand and supply will then fluctuate to an affordable rate or the supplier will not be in buisness.... Its all dollars and cents....
The old story of why burn wood or use alternative energy has changed, Oil is no longer cheap and less work !!! 

[treenail]

Am all for developing different forms of clean energy, that will help power our needs. Although wind energy has it's drawbacks, it does contribute to the power grid, as such, is usefull on the whole. The free market will fill in the blanks. I have lived within the 10 mile radius emergency evacuation zone of an atomic power plant for  thirty five years, and although it is very reliable, there are always reservations of sorts about it. It does contribute to our needs , so everything is a balancing act.

[Fla._Deadheader]

The photo that was posted in the beginning of this thread, is a good reference of how NOT to put in Wind generators. You need a constantly UNINTERRUPTED flow of air, to get max efficiency, from wind.

  You need to get information on PREVAILING wind direction, and spread out those machines. ANY object in the way of the wind striking those blades, will cut that efficiency, DRASTICALLY.

  When I had to climb a tower, and PHYSICALLY rotate a spinning rotor out of the wind, to shut down an over-running machine, I could have lit a cigarette while I was on the backside of the tower, behind that spinning rotor. The air strikes the front surface of those blades, and is thrown OUT SIDEWAYS from the blades. It will NOT pass through, if the machine is designed correctly, unless the blades are at max RPM, and furled to govern the RPM's of the machine.. At slower speeds, what little that does pass through, is useless to any machine downwind of that location.

  Those huge machines, are HEAVY. Bearings will not hold up to the stresses. They can NOT turn fast, or the gyroscopic forces will destroy them. They are mechanically "yawed" seeking direct wind flow. That is a slow process, for a huge machine.

  When you see photos like the one mentioned, usually the front wind facing machines are turning, the ones behind are not. What ever direction the wind comes from, the machines with the most wind exposure are turning. The rest are not. They are regulated by wind sensors, to not run, until more than half efficiency will be achieved.

  A series of machines, built HALF the size of those huge ones, will outlast, and out produce the huge ones, especially if spread out.

  I believe that some of these could be subsidized. I KNOW others are not.

  A thread on subsidizing, ALL subsidizing, would be a HOT topic on this board.  >:( >:(

  May a steady wind be at your location, for all those who DO have wind machines.  8) 8) 8) 8) ;D ;D ;D

[TW]

I wold recommend that you take a look at the Danes. They have a huge percentage of wind power with corresponding spare capacity from other sources and manages well. They cut the worst peaks by buying power from Swedish hydroelectric plants, and sell back wind power when the wind is favourable. There has been some mayor problems, but nothing catastrophic, and they work on it and get better at iot for every year.
After that energy breakdown you had some years ago on the east coast you Americans cannot claim to be any better when it comes to reliability.

It is no idea to build windmills where it does not blow. There is a huge difference between the wind power availeable deep in the Finnish forests, and what is on let's say the Outer Hebrides in Scotland.

I am young, but barely old enough to remember Chernobyl. I think that is the first news headline I remember. People still die from the radioactivity every year, all over north eastern Europe. Therfore I do not like nuclear power.

First and foremost we must learn to save energy.


Just my oppinions.

[submarinesailor]

After that energy breakdown you had some years ago on the east coast you Americans cannot claim to be any better when it comes to reliability.

Speaking of the blackout.  I read this today: http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=40112&dcn=todaysnews.

Bruce