New meaning to “public buildings”.

[Bibbyman]

The court house in town was rebuilt about 1940 after the second one built of wood burned down.  The new court house is of brick and masonry with a lot of marble inside.  Its 3 stories high on the north side and 4 stories of on the south side.   With some grounds and parking it covers a block.

When I was a kid, the court house was the only convenient place to find a restroom or a drinking fountain in the downtown area. (Downtown was the only area then.)  The main lobby has a lot of local historical stuff dating back to the Civil War. 

Also,  back then, all county functions were housed at the court house.  The sheriff had his office on the ground floor and prisoners were kept on the top floor.  One end of the main floor had the recorder's office and collector's office.  The other end had the prosecuting attorney and the judges.  I think the county commissioners and surveyors were on the third floor.  There are court rooms on the first and second and third floor.

About this time 37 years ago I was about to turn 21 – legal age to buy a handgun.  I already had one picked out and paid for.  I had to go to the sheriff's office to get the permit.  I walked in and told the deputy at the front desk what I was after.  He directed me to the sheriff in an office just behind him.  The sheriff looked at my permit and asked, "You ever been in trouble with the law?".  I replied no.  He signed the permit.  Then he noted that my birthday wasn't for a few days yet.  We talked about that technicality and he just advised not picking it up until it was actually my birthday and handed me the permit.

The sheriff's office and jail have since moved out to the edge of town - a big complex with high chain-liked fence and barbed wire all around.  About 10 years ago I bought another handgun and had to get another permit.  I went out to the new sheriff's office and found I had to talk to someone through an intercom system that had to "buzz" me in through two doors.  I got into the lobby and had to talk to a deputy through a little porthole in 2" bullet proof glass.  The little room he was in was filled with monitors and such. First thing I said was, "I hope you feel safe behind there."  The sheriff has ten days to process the permit.  The ten days were up and I had not received it so I went back in to check on it.  After some discussion, my paperwork was found in the in basket next to the window.  It'd not been looked at.  I made some remarks and the deputy just signed it and shoved it back through the slot at the bottom of the window.

Last Friday I took my mom into the court house to meet with some transient bureaucrat about her social security benefits.  The court house has a circle drive in on the lower side but there is no parking.  The parking available is assigned to the sheriff's department (even though they don't have offices here.) so they can transport prisoners to and from court.  They have two passenger vans and all day they run prisoners to and from the county jail and wherever else they come and go from and to.

So I pulled up and got mom out of the car (she's very feeble) and into the building and to the room where she is to meet with the man.  Then I went to move the car.  I drove around a half an hour trying to get street parking anywhere close to the court house.  They took out the meters years ago but have a two hour parking limit and a meter made in a little buggy going around marking tires.  But I about bet every car parked around the court house is owned by someone what works inside and the meter maid does not bother them.

I found a parking place not far from the office and went in.  Mom wasn't done yet.  But the office happed to be in the same area as the county commissioners.  They didn't look like they were overly busy so one came out to the lobby to visit with me.  Bad move on his part.  I complained about the county road right of ways not being mowed and I was going to send them a bill for mowing our county road, etc. Budget problems.  Just need more money.

I also complained that there was no place to park and that the building wasn't very accessible to people like my mother.  He said it was only going to get worse.  They're going to do some extensive remodeling to close off the building to the public.  He said all the people working in the building will be issued cards to scan their way in and out.  The circle drive on the south side will be taken out and there will be only public access on the north side that will have to go through security to get in or out.

I commented that it gives "public building" a whole new meaning.  He said, "Yes but it's a dangerous place.  We have a lot of criminals and their families coming in and out of the building and you never know what they may do."

Yes,  but you know... these people are there to protect and serve us.  Not to hide in their own fortified world.

[Kansas]

I am suprised to find that you need a permit to have a handgun in missouri.
So far, the county where I live, and the county where my business is, still have the old big stone courthouses, fully accessible by whoever wanders in. One county has grown enough that its spilled over into some extra buildings, but parking is actually closer and easier at those than it is at the big older building.
For once, makes me glad we are behind the times in Kansas. You need a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but none that I am aware of to own a handgun.

[Tom]

We've not arrived at that amount of control over weapons either, thank goodness.  I can understand your ire.  I tend to believe that WE are the government and those in the big official buildings are our servants.  It seems that they(Prima donnas, legends in their own mind)have lost the concept.   Our public buildings, courthouse and city hall, have fallen to the same level as you describe.  If the Sheriff's Department can't be depended upon to look after one or two buildings, how do they expect to be able to protect the population at large.  No wonder homeowners doors are broken down in mistaken identity. These "servants" have lost their accountability.

[Bibbyman]

I reminded the county commissioner that years ago security wasn't an issue.   We had a colorful old judge that dispensed his own brand of justice.  His name was Hugh P. Williamson.  Even when he was over 70 years old he was still a tall and big man.  Wore and outdated and worn dress jacket and a cowboy hat and bolo tie.  He had a big old black Labrador that would come to the court house with him.  Each day at noon he'd walk down the street to the grocery store and buy the dog some hamburger.  He'd leave the dog behind the store while he went down to the next block to the restaurant.

One day while in his judge's chambers alone,  one of his former "clients" came in to settle the score.  He threw a punch at Hugh P.  I don't remember if it landed but Hugh P. hit back – knocking the man rolling.  Hugh P. said he suspected that he broke his jaw.   Hugh P. had been a bare fisted boxer in his younger years.  Information like that would have been of value to the man that tried to hit him – don't you think?

Here is a link to a story about Hugh P. Williamson.

Judge Hugh P. Williamson - The Last Legend of Callaway County

[stonebroke]

We have had security checkpoints at our court house for a long time. I was called for jury duty and had to wait in line for about forty five minutes. Course they said on the notice to come a hour early. Then we had to wait on the judge two hours before he deemed to show up. About one hundred people wasting their time.

Stonebroke

[zopi]

We no longer have a government of, by and for the people of these United States...maybe we ought to do something about that...be careful how you vote..

/can't stand politicians and bureauRats...

[Bibbyman]

We no longer have a government of, by and for the people of these United States...maybe we ought to do something about that...be careful how you vote..

/can't stand politicians and bureauRats...

Unfortunately we keep electing the same people.  The other day I noted to Mary all the campaign signs up along the highway.  Many where of the next generation of the same families that had been in office before.  In our courthouse I was introduced to a new commissioner.  He is the son of one of the old cronies that was a commissioner for as long as I can remember.  Keeping it all in the family.  :-\

[zopi]

Unfortunately we keep electing the same people.  The other day I noted to Mary all the campaign signs up along the highway.  Many where of the next generation of the same families that had been in office before.  In our courthouse I was introduced to a new commissioner.  He is the son of one of the old cronies that was a commissioner for as long as I can remember.  Keeping it all in the family.  :-\

When asked by one of the wonks running for local office (treasurer I think..) what thing I'd change if I could go back in time..I answered with "Term limits for every attention whore elected official in the country..federal state or local.." I didn't even blink, and he doesn't like me much..didn't get elected either..<GRIN> The editor of the local paper loved it too..he's such a subversive..

[smoothED]

I have a question, if you already own pistols and move to missouri do you have to register the guns with the sheriff to be on the up and up? I put an offer in on 170 acres near salem and don't want any surprises down the road.

[SwampDonkey]

I can tell you to the exact year when they started locking down some of the government office buildings around here. Mostly in the cities and larger towns. It was in 1990 during the first gulf war.

Recently some small town court houses were closed because they were deemed insecure. I had to ask in my own mind when did they assess this? They were secure for over 100 years.  :

I don't recall hearing or reading about any government office in NB being invaded by gun blazing lunatics. Unsatisfied irate people, yes.

When you here an interview now it is all scripted because government is afraid of an employee saying the wrong thing and being misinterpreted and turned into a hostile or irate situation. Government employees, even enforcement, are not allowed to speak freely about what's on their minds in interviews. And their scripted responses will never answer a specific question. For instance, 3 questions asked will return the same exact answer.

[ADAMINMO]

SmoothEd , It would probably be best to register your hand guns with the sheriff office. This way you will be ok and not have any troubles down the road. Huh ... Small world though, Salem is just a 45 minute drive from my house.I may have to come for a visit ifin ya do make the move.

[OneWithWood]

Two reasons 'public' doesn't mean public:

For the past decade elected officials, especially those of the right wing persuasion, and talking heads like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly have been convincing everyone who would listen that we are under seige.  Everyone you do not know, and many you do, are working for some terrorist organization that wants to destroy our way of life.  No one is safe!  Meanwhile we are doing a good job of destroying our way of life in the name of the so called war on terrorism.

Our government is justifiably affraid of the governed.  Most politicos are becoming aware that the information age has rendered their facade of looking out for someone other than themselves rather transparent.

[Tom]

I agree that talk show hosts and TV commentators have the ear of the public.  It's a shame that our Government employees can't see their way to have the same impact and trust of the voting public.  What would it take, a bit of openess, a true  careing for the constituancy?  I was escorted from the 2nd floor of the Federal building here one day.  I had taken a Family member, from Finland, inside to prove a government that did not shackle citizens.   An FBI guy stopped us and said it would be better if we followed him downstairs since there were federal courtrooms up there.   He was nice about it, but I didn't see the logic, nor the signs and barriers keeping us out.  That was in 1979.  Carter, being the conservative that he was, .................. :D

[Dan_Shade]

O'Reilly's goal is to confront the secular progressives, those who don't follow him closely think he's a puppet of the right, I really don't think he is.  he definately leans to the right, but I feel he treats the left fairly and equally. 

We are under a seige, there is a daily assault happening on things that many of us hold near and dear.  Gun Control, anti-hunting/trapping groups, groups that push any and all mentions of religion from the public eye, horrible judges that put child harming criminals back out on the street.   The people behind these assaults are well funded and organized.

We live in a crazy world, I figure it's always been crazy, but now with the news and ease of transportation, it just makes it easier for a nut to get an idea, and follow through with it.

[beenthere]

Two reasons 'public' doesn't mean public:

For the past decade elected officials, especially those of the right wing persuasion, and talking heads like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly have been convincing everyone who would listen that we are under seige.  ..............

Robert
I listen to both Rush and Bill....and don't hear that at all.

[OneWithWood]

You make my point for me Dan.

We as a people (citizens of the USA) are not under siege as a whole.  Certain segments that feel they have some right to control how the rest of us think probably do feel under siege.  A seige mentality is required to get to the twist of logic that to be free as a people we must remove rights from those in society that do not agree with us.  I was taught, by my very conservative parents, that a difference of opinion was part and parcel of a democratic society.  Supposedly we have a freedom of speech to put forth those differences of opinion.  It seems though that when some cannot win a discussion on the merits of the argument they push to enact legislation to force their view on the populace as a whole.  This is in stark contrast to the ideal of a democracy where the majority rules but the rights of the minority are protected.  We seem to have moved to a society where the majority rules and the minority needs to move elsewhere or live as second class citizens.
The past eight years have demonstrated how as a society we can be beaten down without the need for a full scale invasion.  We will simply trade in our hard fought freedoms so we do not have to be personally responsible to look out for the welfare of our country.  After all it is the governments job to look after us and tell us how to live and believe according to the shouting heads.

[OneWithWood]

Beenthere, could it be they have changed their tune of late?  I guess I should not have named them because I quit listening to them a long time ago  :-\

You type faster than I do  :D

[Dan_Shade]

I agree with you, OWW,  having debate and varying viewpoints is an excellent means to come to a good solution.  One thing that I have realized is that conservatives and liberals often want the same end results, it's just the methods they use to get to that end are very different.

The part that scares me is how an assault can be launched on our freedoms in manners which are not democratic, some groups have become very good at getting their way through judicial activism and court rulings for things that would have never passed, even closely, in an open vote.

Personally, I'm with you on some of this stuff, most of the 9-11 hijackers were on no-fly lists, and they were allowed to board anyway, we (the US govt) knew they were bad guys, but somebody didn't do their job and let them on the plane.  The system worked that day, but a security checkpoint didn't.

But also remember vigilance is a good thing:  there are evil people in this world, and if honest men do nothing, evil will prevail.

[Slabs]

Security    HUMPF!!!!!

A few weeks ago I needed to get to the Supervisor of Elections office.

1.  The two "deputies" at the security desk weren't sure where it was.
     ( It was just down the only hall and clearly marked on the way)
2.  It took me three tries to get through the metal scanner.  I was told not to carry my pocket knife into the building but after three scans with the wand the trouble turned out to be the metal eyelets in my shoes.

It's been several years since I have been summoned to jury duty (maybe because we acquitted the last guy) but if i'm summoned, maybe I'll report in packing iron.

[smoothED]

Thanks adam, i'll let ya know when everything goes through.

[Bibbyman]

I have a question, if you already own pistols and move to missouri do you have to register the guns with the sheriff to be on the up and up? I put an offer in on 170 acres near salem and don't want any surprises down the road.

Years ago I had a Federal Firearms Dealer's license and was up on all the regulations – as best a mortal person could be anyway.  As far as I know, (or knew) the permit to purchase a handgun was only required to buy a handgun from a licensed dealer.   Thus, you already own the handgun and don't need a permit to buy it.

As a licensed dealer, had to go to the sheriff with the permit to buy a handgun from myself.

The permit process is not a registration of the gun or owner by the sheriff's department but is meant to be a background check on the person to see if they meet the qualifications to purchase a handgun.

I would advise going to a licensed firearms dealer and talk it over with him. 

Missouri is also a right to carry concealed state.  You have to pay a fee and go through some training process to get this permit.   

[Dave Shepard]

So you have to go to your sheriff every time you want to purchase a handgun? Here, the dealer does a NICS check, in and out in 20 minutes, sometimes quicker. To an earlier question, AK and VT are the only states that do not require a license to carry, although AK will give you one for other states to honor.


Dave

[Bibbyman]

So you have to go to your sheriff every time you want to purchase a handgun? Here, the dealer does a NICS check, in and out in 20 minutes, sometimes quicker. To an earlier question, AK and VT are the only states that do not require a license to carry, although AK will give you one for other states to honor.


Dave

You may well be right.  My last experiance was more than 10 years ago.

Here is a link I found about Missouri gun laws.

Gun Laws in Missouri

However,  to buy a handgun from a dealer may require some background check.

[smoothED]

It looks like from that link that there is'nt a need to register them since i did the background checks,and the feds have my numbers,but i'll double check.

"To an earlier question, AK and VT are the only states that do not require a license to carry,"
I think your talking about concealed here,in florida you could carry a loaded gun say,in your car,but there has to be 3 moves to get it. In PA.guys would walk around town with a sidearm as long as it was exposed and you had a PA. drivers licence. PA. was 30 years ago could've changed since then.

[thedeeredude]

Yeah Pennsylvania changed, you need a CC permit now.

[rebocardo]

Well, on the flip side of the coin, we have people that will go into a church with a shot gun and blast away at people because he was upset about their liberal views.

Just like we had a criminal (Brian Nichlos) take out four people in his court house escape. So now all our local courts are like entering a restricted military base.

Which reminds me, before 9/11 we use to take our children right to the chain link gate to watch planes take off and land at the air force base. That does not happen anymore.

Unfortunately we have criminals that know no bounds, just like their family members that visit them. Some have been bold enough to distract clerks, then lean over their counter and steal the clerk's pocketbook from under the clerk's desk.

An armored courthouse or public building is only as good as the fab skills of a  nut case that will built an armored CAT to take it out or blow it up with a truck bomb.

I think the best course of action is not to have so many people walking around thinking they have nothing to lose. Because that is the most dangerous person against which is little defense. For that I have few solutions.

I am of the view, people are more polite to each other and are safer when everyone is armed.

[Gary_C]

We as a people (citizens of the USA) are not under siege as a whole.  

You are going to have a hard time convincing me of that as I sit here filling out my IRS Form 2290, Heavy Highway Vehicle Use Tax Return. Just because I own and operate a semi tractor I am required to file and only because the rules have an exemption for agriculture vehicles driven under 7500 miles per year, am I exempt from paying the $550.00 annual fee.

Now I certainly understand that I should have to register this truck with the state of Minnesota where I live and do pay the fees for the annual license. But even then, regardless of wether I ever drive out of the state, Minnesota requires me to get a US DOT number which has an added requirement that I maintain a driver qualification file on myself and pay to enroll myself in a random drug testion program or face thousands of dollars in fines and penalities.

And if I ever have to drive into the next state in this free country, I have to turn in my Minnesota license and get an apportioned plate under IRP and buy a fuel tax permit under IFTA. This fuel tax permit "allows" me to record every mile I drive in every jurisdiction (state) including getting out my log book as I cross every border and record the date, time, and odometer reading.

Now you might think this is enough, but the feds have just enacted this new Uniform Carrier Registration, UCR which requires me to register all my semi trucks and trailers under a separate registration and fee system that they are now setting up. Last year I was resigned to filling out these new UCR forms and pay the forty dollar fee when I discovered I had to pay eight dollars to pay this new forty dollar fee. Paying a fee to pay a fee was just too much for me and I threw the forms away.  >:(

You had better believe I feel "under siege!"


This reminds me of the meeting I attended a couple of years ago that was put on by the MN DOT to "explain" the newly enacted tie down regulations. There was one provision that was particularly offensive to the log truckers at the meeting and the DOT officer finally defended it by saying the truckers should have objected during the alloted comment period and the truckers said they had done that and were just ignored. So finally the DOT officer said "what do I have to do to convince you, shoot you?" Another logger said you don't have your gun and then another DOT officer in the back of the room said "I'll loan him mine." 

So yes our government officials are prepared to shoot down any protests and objections from the unruly public.  >:( >:(

[OneWithWood]

Gary, be sure to file a complaint and fill it out in triplicate  :D

[moonhill]

Yesterday on the radio news there was a bit about an illegal alien from Brazil that was shot by a police officer.  The girlfriend and mother of their two children was in an dither about how she was going to explain this to their children.  He also had a previous criminal record in which he had used a vehicle in a hit and run among other offenses, while still in the country as an illegal.   He had just rammed the officers vehicle after a chase, he was blocked in.   And now he is dead. 

He had no permit or license to drive in this country.  Yet he was using a deadly weapon.  It could of been a firearm as well, and the girl still would of been complaining. 

I may have some minor facts mixed, but my point is simple.  Permits are for the honest folks?   

I will have to read back to see where this went from public buildings to firearms.   Tim

[Bibbyman]

I will have to read back to see where this went from public buildings to firearms.   Tim

It's my fault.  I used one example where many years ago I walked directly into the sheriff's office and set down with him and got my business done in a casual, personal manner.  That happened to be to get a permit to buy a handgun.  Then I compared my experience some 20 years later of having to go through security doors and talk to a deputy behind bullet proof glass and got poor service. 

I should have said I went in and had a bowl of grits with the sheriff.   

[Kansas]

Most of these threads invariably get around to food....

Too bad this one went on the dark side and mentioned the "g" word........

[moonhill]

It seem some topics may get moved for one reason or another, which may be a good thing. 

Food?  Is that a safe topic or have I missed something.   Tim

[Raider Bill]

Food is always a safe topic ;D

[smoothED]

You could all blame me for swaying the topic, i'm the red headed stepchild anyway :'(

[sawman]

 As of last year sometime, Missouri no longer requires permits from sheriffs for one to purchase handguns.

[Mooseherder]

Was that Missouri's Govenor who was on Glenn Beck last night?   She had bought her 15 year old son a Rifle for his birthday.  She is also for Drilling oil offshore and wants a Refinery in her State.   

[moonhill]

Mooseherder, I listened to that interview on the radio.  I think he thought she was sweet.  Tim

[OneWithWood]

Is she wanting to drill in the Mississippi or Misouri river?  :D

[moonhill]

Nope, off shore, just like Norway, and they have a much harsher climate than we do and they have a safe proven record.  Tim

[SwampDonkey]

Send her to the arctic, after a 4 year study the USGS says there are 90 billion barrels of oil untapped up there.  ;D

[Bibbyman]

Is she wanting to drill in the Mississippi or Misouri river?  :D

There's oil in Missouri - mostly in the south west corner next to Oklahoma but there are oil wells in other parts of the state also.