Cutting the bottom branches on Fir trees?

[Bow Saw]

     In the past month or so I have been cutting the bottom branches on my fir trees, it is my understanding that this will help to make a better log. But as I was cutting today I asked myself if I was not doing this for nothing? I was thinking that if I get the wood lot cut by a wood cutter he will cut it all in tree length. So the work I am doing now will be 
wasted! :-\

[Ianab]

To improve the quality of the log you need to remove those lower branches early in the tree's life. Then as the tree grows the later wood layed down on the trunk is clear timber with no knots, hence more valuable.

You also need to document the pruning so you can show the logs are of higher quality than normal unpruned logs, and market them as such. If they are just scaled and sold as normal logs your work is wasted, but the mill gets the bonus when they saw more high value clear timber than expected from your logs.

Lift pruning a mature tree will not gain you anything as the knots are already embedded in the trunk.

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Be careful Bow Saw, pruning spruce and fir increases incidence of rot in the main stem. Be careful not to wound the trunk, leave a 1" stub and don't cut into that collar of the branches where they attach to the trunk. The best way to prune spruce and fir is grow them tight and do several thinnings as the bottom branches die. Too open and they will limb up again. Then you gotta hope you get a better price in the future than right now to justify all that work. It's fine to do it on a small acreage, kinda a hobby and good exercise. I don't want to discourage your efforts, but "I told ya so" at least.  ;)

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to what swamp said. Not to much advantage to pruning fir unless its a "hobby thing".

[Mooseherder]

It sure does make for a Park like setting. ;)
Bow Saw has trimmed a few thousand trees and would have withdrawals if he had to stop. :D

This is one of us cleaning my saws at his place because they really needed it and I can't do it as well at the Camp.  They don't show how beautiful their place is.





Here is another looking the opposite direction.  Mom was letting my brother drive the Rhino. :D

[Clark]

I'd agree with SD on everything except leaving a stub.  On one hand you don't want to cut into the trunk itself, but rather leave the branch collar intact.  Leaving a stub keeps the saw away from the collar but also shoots you in the foot if you want to prune for better timber.  I'd say learn how to properly identify the branch collar and then cut as close as you think you can without cutting into it.

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

Going to be worst than shooting your foot when your trees start developing bole rot.

[Clark]

Going to be worst than shooting your foot when your trees start developing bole rot.

So presumably leaving a 1" stub will prevent bole rot?  Mooseherder should expect most of those trees to be cull by the time harvest arrives?  Just curious as I have no clue how leaving something behind would help prevent fungus from entering the tree.

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

Pruning whether a 1 inch stub or to the branch collar will increase the probability of rot in spruce and fir. It's just not done. I have a back yard full of pruned spruce my father trimmed up 30 years ago, all full of rot.  :

[Mooseherder]

I'm gonna be upset if these rot. :(
At this rate only about hundred trees are getting trimmed every year.   Another 100 are getting space thinned.  The space thinning will continue as these were way too tight.
If I see some evidence of damage I'll stop before doing more trimming of lower branches.   

I leave about a quarter inch of stub or a tad bit less.  The trees from last years trimming looked healthy.  Time will tell.






My focus this year was on this side of the camp.  These Quaking Aspens were suspect and way too close to the camp.  I took down a dozen or so.  Only one didn't fall the direction it should have. :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1bqU5826w

[sharp edge]

On white pine  been cutting them 1 foot long on the dead branches. Hoping they will rot quicker then collar can pinch them off. A long dead branch can wick a lot of water out of the trunk and wont rot. Don't know how this is working out , time will tell.

SE

[Clark]

Pruning whether a 1 inch stub or to the branch collar will increase the probability of rot in spruce and fir. It's just not done. I have a back yard full of pruned spruce my father trimmed up 30 years ago, all full of rot.  :

That's kind of what I was thinking too.  Obviously pruning fir and spruce isn't an ideal proposition but if someone really wants to do it, I think we owe it to them to teach them how to do it correctly.  Soon you end up with people applying that advice to other species and they are really doing themselves a disservice. 

sharp edge - Prune those white pine right up to the branch collar, you're wasting your time if you don't.   Here's a link to help identify the branch collar.

mooseherder - It looks like you are mostly pruning dead branches so I wouldn't worry about it much.  Physiologically the tree should be fine but until the wound is healed over there is always a chance for fungus to enter.  Just follow good pruning practices (which it appears you are) and don't worry about the rest.

Clark

[Bow Saw]

Thank you all for responding to my inquiry about pruning fir trees.  Now for my next question;  How would you go about to document the cutting that is done to the wood, if I only trim an acre to an acre and a half out of one hundred plus acres per season? ???

[Mooseherder]

Thanks for that link Clark.  That'll help.
Yes, those were dead branches on the Fir and Spruce.

[Ianab]

Obviously different species and different climates / growth rates will have different effects.

As I'm not familiar with your trees or your climate our results may be very different and you should pay more attention to the local advice.

But - some actual dissections of how pruning 'should' work.

This is a slice through a 5yr old pine tree that had been lift pruned once, but thinned on the next round. I cut it in 1/2 to see what was actually going on inside. The branch scars are still clearly visible on the bark, and you can see the bulge where the whorl of branches were, but the wood being layed down from this point is totally clear of defects. The log is about 7" diameter at this point.



A section through a branch that was pruned just outside the collar and has healed over perfectly. You can see some discolouration down the branch, but the wood is still solid and is now sealed over which should prevent further rot.



Another knot on the other side hasn't healed over as cleanly and it's left a small cavity of bark and pitch. But it's still sealed and there is actually less decay in the branch stub.



Closeup of the 2nd branch.



Now these are very fast growing trees so they seal up the pruning wounds very quicly, these have grown over completely in approx 12 months. Your mileage may vary.

I do still wonder how much worse pruning off the suppressed and dieing branches is going to be, as opposed to letting them self prune and rot off naturally. It just seems that cleanly removing the branch and allowing the tree to heal quickly should be better than leaving a rotting stub that has to decay away before the bark can close over.

Removing larger branches from an open grown yard tree would certainly increase the possibility of rot getting in as it is going to take MUCH longer for the stub to close over. But removing dead or dieing branches in a closed over canopy situation, I cant see as being any where near as harmfull.

Cheers

Ian

[Bow Saw]

     Putting in my 1st practice picture of the pruning & thinning that was done to some fir trees on my woodlot......so please.....go easy on me ;D

[pigman]

Bow Saw, I don't know anything about pruning, but you are good at picture posting and driving an ATV with a passenger on the back. 8)

[Mooseherder]

Great pics Ianab and Bow Saw. ;D

[Clark]

Ianab - Thanks for those great pictures.  That radiata pine is amazing stuff, what is the typical pruning and thinning treatment for those trees?  The forestry down in Aus. and NZ has always fascinated me.

Mooseherder - One problem with pruning the fir and spruce is that neither grows all that fast.  These radiata pine that Ianab is showing us are Olympic sprinters while the rest of us are running the three-legged race!  There is nothing bad about pruning the fir and spruce, especially if you are only taking off the dead branches.  As SwampDonkey has pointed out, the fungus will quickly take over either of these trees if given a chance so pruning is usually not even considered.

Another problem with pruning the F&S is that there aren't many products that the market demands for straight, clear F&S.  My grandmother is sitting on 200 cords of balsam fir that is running 30 cords/acre.  It would make great logs for a cabin but it can difficult to find someone willing to cut the good stuff with the bad.  Don't get me wrong, I wish I could see more stands of balsam like my grandmothers, but sometimes you can't get rid of it even when you need to.

Clark

[Ianab]

Ianab - Thanks for those great pictures.  That radiata pine is amazing stuff, what is the typical pruning and thinning treatment for those trees?  The forestry down in Aus. and NZ has always fascinated me.

The exact pruning and thinning would depend on the actual site, climate and soil types. The trees would normally be planted around 3-4m spacing, mostly to get an early canopy closure to supress weeds and encourage a taller form with suppressed lower branches.

The first prune would normally be after about 3 years. The tree would be 5 or 6m tall and would just be pruned from the ground, leaving 3 or 4 m of green crown, The trunk would be about 4" dia where the pruning stops.

The trees would be pruned 2 more times, maybe 5 and 7 years, or up to 10 years on a poorer site. That gives 6m of pruned trunk, again a 4" dia at the top, and 3 or 4m of green crown remaining.

Pruning is generally with hand tools and ladders. A big set of double acting loppers and a nice sharp hand saw for any bigger branches. Chainsaws can be used, but are not a lot faster than loppers, and more dangerous to the operator and the trees. If you are standing on top a a 4m ladder with one leg wrapped around the tree for stability, hand tools are actually easier.

At some point the extra stems are thinned, generally to waste unless it's an easy access site where the small stems could be harvested for posts or pulp. But it's low value stuff and is generally just left to rot. The inital planting would be around 700-1,000 stems per hectare, but it's thinned down to 250-350 actual crop trees. By the time you take out the double leaders, broken tops, animal damaged, bananas, and just runts you should be left with the best trees and if you have to take out a few 'good' ones to prevent overcrowding, so be it.

But all the silviculture work is completed in the first 7 -10 years, then the trees can just be left. Harvest would be 25-30 years for good sawlogs. The trees could be 30" dbh by then, and the pruned butt logs would have a 6" core of defect, the rest is clear timber.

A lot of work, but the end result is 2 or 3 times the return at harvest.

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, Mooseherder the dead branch pruning won't have ill effects. When I prune up with a spacing saw it's so I can see where my saw head is and to get that brush out of my face. I leave a long branch but mostly to discourage the moose from rubbing. I have no idea at this point what will happen over a 30 year period. I found a few fir yesterday that had small untrimmed limbs where the moose has been having a great time rubbing the bark off.  : It seems they target trees in low density areas for their scratching posts. I also found a couple spruce stripped. We need a longer moose season.  

I hear what Clark is saying about his grandmother's fir. We can grow fir here to 18" in 45 years with silviculture. I let the neighbors cut one last fall that was 18" dbh and 45 rings on the stump. So I know it can be done. Nice and white with the typical reddish latewood in the rings. The trouble with some of my older fir on the lot is past mechanical damage and age. Some of them are 40 years old already and were suppressed before a harvest 15 years ago. If we ever get the biomass industry going here, those older damaged fir will be going to make electricity.  Otherwise, I'll probably be asking myself why I'm letting them grow with a big scar up the side, so they might be worm food a lot sooner.  : As long as I can walk and carry a saw I will be spacing my woods 20-25 years apart taking the worst first. If I can't get a decent return off those better fir down the road, then I guess they will make good worm food.  :-\ :

[routestep]

I have all types of regeneration of Fir and Black Spruce on my lot. I've trimmed a few of the lower branches, not too many but its pretty slow going.

What I have done for the last eight or ten years is nip off one of the double leads on the young trees. I'd walk around for hours grapping a tree and cutting a double lead off with hand pruners. On occasion I'd find a tree that I nipped a few years previous with a double lead again, nip it again. On slightly taller trees, eight to ten feet tall, I use a walking stick with a hook (branch that I trimmed) and drag it down to where I could trim the extra lead.

Is trimming the extra lead a waste of time?

[SwampDonkey]

They tend to always develop a new one. Don't know why, but they do. I just cut the darn things off at the stump unless it's in a light area. Then maybe the moose will rub it instead of a good one. ;D

[janetville]

    In the past month or so I have been cutting the bottom branches on my fir trees, it is my understanding that this will help to make a better log. But as I was cutting today I asked myself if I was not doing this for nothing? I was thinking that if I get the wood lot cut by a wood cutter he will cut it all in tree length. So the work I am doing now will be  
wasted! :-\

Hi Bow Saw, it's over a decade later now. I find myself in a similar situation as you. I'm wondering if you've noticed evidence of increased rot in pruned stems. I've started lift pruning some young spruce trees, but I figured I better get some additional insight. They are white spruce

[SwampDonkey]

I have been pruning some fir here for a few years, these are fir I want for myself. The mills up here don't give any bonuses for clear fir or spruce, so they won't get any. But I'm not recommending any pruning to anyone. Seeing what has happened to spruce that have lived a few decades after pruning, is not encouraging. You need real small branches, and that is achieved with spacing. In nature, the nice old spruce self pruned that way and those early knots in deep by now are pin knots and well healed. 1+ inch knots are not going to have great results.

[wisconsitom]

@routestep, definitely worthwhile to prune out multi tops and such.  Do you know if white pine weevil is present in your area?  That pest also messes with spruce terminal leaders and can be the cause of forking.  Not too hard to control if acreage not too large.

[mjeselskis]

@routestep, definitely worthwhile to prune out multi tops and such.  Do you know if white pine weevil is present in your area?  That pest also messes with spruce terminal leaders and can be the cause of forking.  Not too hard to control if acreage not too large.

@wisconsintom I'd be very interested in hearing your advice on the white pine weavil. I have a stand of 8 yr old planted white pine that they are really messing up the tops. I keep pruning the dead leaders out and leaving the best branch on the next row down to grow as the new leader. The bugs just keep picking another tree to attack.

[wisconsitom]

Hi mjeselskis.  Yes, on our planted white pines and Norway spruce, the tip weevil adult female is still sleeping, in the duff layer.  But in just weeks, concurrent with the bright yellow blossoms of the forsythia bush, if you know what that landscape shrub is.....she'll crawl or fly (?) up to the terminal buds of white pines and especially Norway spruce if present, and lay her eggs.  These will hatch and the larvae will tunnel around feeding.  A few weeks later, you'll be walking your rows, admiring the new growth when you will come to your best trees, the ones with the most vigor and the largest terminal buds, and see 2 or 3 feet of new growth bright orangey brown, dropping off to the side dead.  The tree responds by making multiple leaders, i.e. forked tops.  In my experience, the same trees will often be repeatedly attacked.

In a few weeks, when those yellow blooms appear here in town on forsythia bushes, I'll go up and spray the tips down to first whorl of branches, and anything that looks like a leader or growing tip, on any white pines and Norway spruces I can reach with my backpack sprayer, using a synthetic pyrethroid called bifenthrin, with a spreader-sticker, to keep the stuff around thru spring rain and snow. 

I can't remember the trade name of the bifenthrin formulation.  The spreader-sticker is called Tactic, it's just lecithin.  This combo inhibits the adult female from laying her eggs up there.  After 3 or 4 years of treating, our pressure has gotten much less, just tiny bits of damage.  Huge difference.

If you can find him, Rick Schulte of Crop Production Services, located in Deforest, WI is some kind of genius at this stuff.  If he's still there-I'm retired now and have lost track-he'll set you up with exactly what you need.  You might have resources like that in your area.

[mjeselskis]

Hi mjeselskis.  Yes, on our planted white pines and Norway spruce, the tip weevil adult female is still sleeping, in the duff layer.  But in just weeks, concurrent with the bright yellow blossoms of the forsythia bush, if you know what that landscape shrub is.....she'll crawl or fly (?) up to the terminal buds of white pines and especially Norway spruce if present, and lay her eggs.  These will hatch and the larvae will tunnel around feeding.  A few weeks later, you'll be walking your rows, admiring the new growth when you will come to your best trees, the ones with the most vigor and the largest terminal buds, and see 2 or 3 feet of new growth bright orangey brown, dropping off to the side dead.  The tree responds by making multiple leaders, i.e. forked tops.  In my experience, the same trees will often be repeatedly attacked.

In a few weeks, when those yellow blooms appear here in town on forsythia bushes, I'll go up and spray the tips down to first whorl of branches, and anything that looks like a leader or growing tip, on any white pines and Norway spruces I can reach with my backpack sprayer, using a synthetic pyrethroid called bifenthrin, with a spreader-sticker, to keep the stuff around thru spring rain and snow.

I can't remember the trade name of the bifenthrin formulation.  The spreader-sticker is called Tactic, it's just lecithin.  This combo inhibits the adult female from laying her eggs up there.  After 3 or 4 years of treating, our pressure has gotten much less, just tiny bits of damage.  Huge difference.

If you can find him, Rick Schulte of Crop Production Services, located in Deforest, WI is some kind of genius at this stuff.  If he's still there-I'm retired now and have lost track-he'll set you up with exactly what you need.  You might have resources like that in your area.

Thank you. We have a forsythia bush in the yard. I'll keep an eye on it. I'll definitely try the treatment you suggested. I'm tired of these things taking out the best trees

[wisconsitom]

Good deal.  I never wanted to plant thousands of trees and then have to spray them with insecticide but once I understood the deal, it became a reasonable thing to do.  It's not so bad, just a little bit at treetop.  These pyrethroids act almost as much as repellants as they do as actual killers, though they certainly will knock back the population.  Worst is spraying taller trees up overhead.  Shifting breezes and gravity means some drift'll get ya.  I grin and bear it-with my mouth closed-and just try and get the job done fast.  Usually wear my worst junk and toss afterward. 

I'm led to believe the weevil can keep messing with your trees up into the 15-20ft. height range.  Not sure that's quite it, but in any case, I'm likely going to spray just one more time, this spring, then go free range.

Pruning out forked tops down to best leader is good to do.  I catch that before I spray.  Why apply material to something that will get cut off?

Best of luck.   Like I said, on limited acreage, this is quite feasible.  On big tracts, I don't know.....drones?

[jimbarry]

Pruning whether a 1 inch stub or to the branch collar will increase the probability of rot in spruce and fir. It's just not done. I have a back yard full of pruned spruce my father trimmed up 30 years ago, all full of rot.  :

Results of a stub grown over in pine.


 

[wisconsitom]

@SwampDonkey, not doubting you, but wondering, if pruning lower branches off spruce and fir can often lead to rot pockets, why would making what amount to improper pruning cuts-for all species-by leaving two inch stubs beyond the collar be preferable to simply making the cut just beyond the collar, like normal?

In trial after trial, this has been shown to be the way to minimize decay.  What am I missing?  Dr. Shigo is leaning up on one elbow in his grave, waiting for your response😆.

[SwampDonkey]

Instead of a dead 6 foot limb, now you have a 2" one beyond the collar. ;D

You want trees with very small limbs your pruning when pruning fir and spruce for logs and small diameter young ones that show good growth. Anything bigger than your finger and you'll wish you left alone. I don't know who Dr. Shigo was, was he pruning pines? Well, first article in Google search below I looked up. ;D

Quote from an article where he stated:

"Natural target pruning" just outside that collar -- no more flush cuts, which expose vulnerable trunk wood to insects and pathogens."

[source: Tree Friendly Pruning]

What I'm suggesting doesn't seem any different than Shigo. You don't want to be in that collar wood. 2" leaves a little buffer against tear into that collar. So 1/4" -2" if you want. I always go within the 2" rule myself. ;D

Any questions?? ;D

I've observed 8 year old fir pruning and the scars have been totally healed over, nub and all. Now what that will look like inside when sawed in a few years will likely yield some surprises, where larger limbs are a lot more ugly than small ones. I know in the past, pruning larger limbs than your finger, do not have great results. The tree is nice and healed and looks nice on the lawn but not that great as lumber.

Hit the trees with the saw when young, small diameter and vigorous, at least 15 feet tall. Not suppressed stuff. This is generally in thinned stands or plantations where spacing was 6-7 feet when established, spruce and fir. Pine is likely wider spaced, less shade tolerant. Open grown fir and spruce, don't waste the time thinking it will be a log tree. The limbs are too fat and they are full of internodal shoots between whorls.

[wisconsitom]

It's just as easy to make the cut in the right place.  Stubs, even two inchers, invite decay, not prevent it.

I don't care if anybody prunes their stuff or not.  But why not do it right if you're doing it?

That would be my question.😏

[SwampDonkey]

Got to leave a stub, if your not cutting into the collar. The doc said beyond the collar, not flush to it. ;) If it was going to be rotten, than every natural spruce log that self pruned would be rotten, which isn't true.

[wisconsitom]

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

Scratch that, it's not me you're disagreeing with, it's the entire tree care industry.

[SwampDonkey]

So be it.

[beenthere]

Leave the collar, nothing beyond the collar, and have the best possible outcome. 

May just as well drop the argument about rot, as it has little to do with the objective to clean up the trees of bottom branches. 

[SwampDonkey]

I think potential rot has to be considered, I see no reason why to exclude it. It's certainly on people's minds the entire thread.