A concrete question.

[biziedizie]

  Jeff if you don't like the finish just float another layer of concrete on top. Hard on the knees and back and wrists but easy to do and then you can start all over again.
  That or call a placer and finisher and they will float a floor for about 2 hundred buxs less mat.

  Steve

[Mark M]

Jeff

Hydrochloric acid (HCl) which is also known as muriatic acid (dilute HCl) reacts with lime (CaCO3) to form calcium chloride (a salt), water (H20) and carbon dioxide (CO2) a gas. This is basically the same reaction as mixing vinegar (acetic acid) and baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). You get a nice fizz with lots of bubbles. A fixed amount of HCL will react with a fixed amount of cement and them become completely neutralized in the process.

I don't know how you can contain it into lines other than to apply with a squirt bottle and only apply a little. The tricky part will be to determine how much acid to use. I would start with about 10% acid 90% water and try in an inconspicuous place such as the highway out front (if it is cement). Make SURE you "do as you otter, add acid to water". DO NOT under any circumstances add water to the acid or you will see a very violent reaction that is not unlike putting water in a lead pot when you are making bullets or sinkers. Also don't alarmed when the acid/water gets hot as it is normal as the acid forms hydronium ions in the water (this won't be on the quiz).

As someone said just use rubber gloves and safety goggles and you will be fine. The nice thing about HCl is it does cause burns if in contact with skin long enough and strong enough, but it takes a while and you usually have time to wash it off.  I work with some pretty strong mixes and have never got burned because I always have water nearby and just rinse it off. Another nice thing is the damage it causes happens right away not 20 years later like with organic solvents (if you consider this to be a nice thing). Don't be afraid of HCl, just treat it with respect.

One last thing, I doubt if anyone would suggest this but don't ever use hydrofluoric acid (HF) for ANYTHING! It is commonly used to etch glass and this stuff is deadly. If a person comes into contact with HF they must immediately be taken to a hospital that is equipped to deal with HF contamination. Treatment involves subcutaneous injections with calcium gluconate and tissue removal. This acid has the nasty habit of burning down until it comes into contact with bone, which it proceeds to dissolve and then attack bone marrow. It also ties up calcium ions and leads to hypocalcemia which really screws up your body. In many cases they have to amputate legs, arms, etc to save a person and in many cases they still die, even from contacts with relatively small amounts.. It also acts as an anesthetic so you can't feel it until it's too late. I'm glad HCl doesn't have these properties.

Hope this helps.

Mark

[biziedizie]

Excellent post Mark and thanks for explaing about hydrofluoric acid.
  You the man of the hour 8)

   Steve

[Jeff]

Mark, you scared me. You scared me real bad.

[Mark M]

...if you don't like the finish just float another layer of concrete on top...

That reminds me of a friend to wanted to fix up his basement floor that was cracked and uneven. They backed the cement truck up and stuck the chute in the window and let her rip. Added about 3 inches right on top of the old. The wood paneling made a DanG good form :D. They did  take the carpet up first (I think).

Mark

[Mark M]

Jeff

Be afraid - be very afraid!  
But only of HF not HCl. HCl is what you use to clean coffee pots. 8)

Steve - glad to help out.

Mark

[biziedizie]

   Jeff it's just acid, there's nothing to worry about.  :-[

   Well I guess you could worry about it peeling your skin off and things like that but other then that it's pretty safe. ;D
  
  The only time you will worry about things is when you see this acid eat through concrete. :D :D

  Kinda makes me jump sometimes. :D


    Steve

[Kevin]

To keep the dust down you would frame a small portable shelter that is covered in plastic and can be moved across the floor.
A water spray and a vacuume system could also be added.
There are plastic sheets with zippers that can be placed over the entrance.

[EZ]

Down at the shop, they use HF to wash the ceramic core out of parts. They heat it up to 300 degrees F. and soak the parts in it. Then pump out the old, the 4 inch drain pipe use to run over head from were the people worked. A few yr's ago one of the drains sprung a leak and dump on a real good friend of mine. He was dead in a few seconds, they used a plactic shovel to clean up what was left of him. >:( :( :'( It was a sad and sick mess, even the guys that are use to doing stuff like that, were throwing up.
And are top 10 say we make to much money, bull-s--t.
I'd say all acid is dangerous, Be Careful, Jeff.
EZ

[Sawyerfortyish]

Jeff this acid thing would scare the H@!! out of me. there talking about battery acid. Since theres about 3 " of dust around the mill the router idea and the dust wouldn't bother me.This may be a little off the wall but I do my best work with a chainsaw wonder what a carbide chain on a saw would do? Maybe you could try it on the concrete road next to where you try the acid  :D try writeing your neighbors name and see how it comes out ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Nope, yer startin to get PARANOID !!!  Ain't NODODY talking about Battery (Sulphuric) acid, here.  This is MURIATIC, a very weak solution. It is very easily neutralized and won't burn yer skin any worse than some parts cleaners. Water is an easy clean up.
   Wish Mark and EZ would have not posted about HF. That stuff has no place in most peoples agendas. It is used to dissolve Quartz for making spectacular Gold-Quartz specimens, also. I doubt if the average bear can even get his hands on that stuff.
  Good ole Muriatic will be fine if ya just use yer head. It is sold over the counter at all the big Lumber type joints, in Gallon jugs. I've used barrels of it over the years. NEVER burned me !!!

[Sawyerfortyish]

Deadheader I seen my mom years ago use muriatic acid to clean the soot off of the stone on her fireplace cant see how it would cut a slot in the concrete. It didn't seem to bother the cement holding the stone togeather but maybe she mixed it with water.I got burned with a little battery acid once so I don't play around with it.

[Mark M]

HF is used for a lot of things and is more commonly available than you might think. Some truck washes used it to clean trucks and I had some DanG good wheel cleaner I bought at K-mart that had HF in it. I've seen it used in high schools to etch glass. I am sure these are much weaker solutions but there are problems with weak solutions too.

As Harold said battery acid is Sulfuric acid (H2S04). Since it has 2 H's (the part the makes an acid do it's thing) it has more "horsepower". Also it is an Oxidizing acid and together these things make it really nasty. That is why you feel the sting right away when you handle a leaky battery or get some of that corrosion gunk on you when your clean your battery.

Do you know what you get when you mix lye (sodium hydroxide or NaOH) and hydrochloric acid (HCl)?

Good old Salt water - sodium chloride (NaCl + H20). It goes something like this:

NaOH + HCl  =  Na + OH + H + Cl  =  NaCl & H20

Ain't chemistry great 8)

Like I said before don't be afraid of hydrochloric or muriatic acid, just use safety equipment like you do when you are sawing or whacking down trees. Same difference.

I almost forgot - muriatic is an old name for HCl. As sold in hardware stores it is usually dilute but you need to read the label because the name muriatic doesn't necessarily mean it is of a certain concentration. It might be 0.5% or 40%. The weak solutions won't do much to dissolve cement but they make good cleaners. Wish I could tell you what strength to use but since I've never done this I can't.

Mark

[biziedizie]

  Jeff have you found any useful information online about concrete etching?
  I will be in another city tomorrow and just a hop skip and a jump away is a concrete specialty shop that I buy products from and I can swing by there and get more information if you want.
  Fire some questions to me and I will ask them in the am.

    Steve

[D._Frederick]

Jeff,
I would go with the router and a special carbite bit, you can cut out masonite patterns hot glue them to the floor. The router with a guide will follow around your pattern. They have shown this process on This Old House. Paint the router cuts.

[Jeff]

I just sa something last night on HGTV that I am trying to investigate called thincrete. it goes on with a trowel 1/4 to3/8s thick and you press felxible ruber mats into it to leave an impression. Looked cool on T.V., they say its new and I cant find much on the net about it.

[Bill_B]

I worked on a job several years ago where they put down a brick pattern over an outside ramp to the hotel. First a base color was put down then a paper pattern then 2 or 3 color coats. This seamed to hold up to the winter in Milwuakee.

[kip]

Check these out. Might be what you looking for.
http://www.renew-crete.com
http://www.increte.com

[biziedizie]

  Jeff the concrete guys sent me these links, saved me some driving today. Sure is nice getting e-mail on the cell phone.

  This one even has a forum.

 http://www.acidstain.com/

  This link is for the guy that really doesn't have a clue but it helps I guess.

  http://www.slam.ca/HGRenovation0205/07_stain2-ap.html

  I noticed that there's alot of guys that use brushes and things like that, I always would use a mop, broom or a sometimes rags to get cool effects. Either way it's worth reading as there's some very good ideas in these links.

  Can you fly me out to your house to give you a hand

  I don't do projects like this everyday and I just love doing things that are different. 8)


    Steve

[Jeff]

I can airmail you a map to my house. ;D

[Kevin]

I think he means email.  ;D

[Jeff]

Nope airmail. I cant fly him here but I can fly him how to get here.

[Jeff]

By the way Biz, those are some great links. The acid staining board will be of great help when I get that far. I probably wont tear into this until after the anniversary picnic. Hoping to have some forum members here so I dont want to have the whole place tore up. I always have at least one room in shambles as it is. :D

[biziedizie]

  Glad the links helped Jeff.

  Wonder what it would cost me round trip to fly out your way?

  I think I need some time off soon as my mind is spinning after the last few years.

  I've always enjoyed the States as there's some very cool places to look at.

    Steve

[Jeff]

I have no idea what flights cost. Believe it or not I have NEVER been in an airplane. Not for fear of it or anything, I would do it in a heart beat. Just never have been.