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Author Topic: REDD scheme  (Read 2290 times)

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Offline Sani Takwim

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REDD scheme
« on: September 30, 2009, 04:17:28 AM »
Much has been talked about the impact of carbon emissions contributing to global warming. We in the tropics have been pressured by the world to reduce our forest clearings as well as to conduct selective cuttings. We are doing our best to comply and I dare to say that our country, Malaysia has managed to reduce the extent of new land openings. Although our country has a green cover of still more than 70% (including agriculture crops of rubber trees and oil palms), we are still being pressured to (1) maintain our natural forest (2) no establishment of new oil palm plantations with biodiversity importance of our fauna and flora being the 'excuse'. The Reduced Emission by Deforestration and Degradation (REDD) scheme where developed countries "pay" developing countries that abide the rules seem a fair deal. But the pace of implementation of the scheme seems slow and I doubt whether this will work unless developed countries are really serious about this. Remember that past mistakes in forest clearings were made by our ancestors in Europe and most developed nations. "Development"for economic progress is also an idea brought by the West. It is only fair for developed countries to show precedent by speeding up the REDD process before its too late for humanity.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2009, 04:50:21 AM »
Actually, I don't agree with the developed countries paying for the developing. It's your country, so you have to take charge. Putting it over onto the developed nations is just a cop out. It's going to always ever be slow to transfer funds for such schemes in far off nations because there are priorities within ones own country that come front and centre. If your always going to depend on handouts, than you'll always be a bottom feeder and will loose the will to think and do for yourself. It's almost in some ways to your advantage that the more developed countries have basically began cleaning up their act the last few decades and have gained the knowledge and experience behind it to pass on to others. A lot of these pressures stem from the fact the more developed countries have environmental laws of their own imposed on forestry and labour that make them uncompetitive with countries lacking in laws and enforcement in those areas. Saying it's global warming and biological diversity at hand affects us all and doesn't offend any one particular nation. Brings out of the woodwork a lot of talkers and preachers with clean hands reflecting their posh lifestyles who aren't prepared to do much to make changes. What did Al Gore ever give up?  :D :D
Move'n on.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2009, 05:47:59 AM »
I'm not sure what you're asking for?  Do you want money or do you want to make more openings for development?  To compare Malaysia to Europe and North American development doesn't seem to be fair.  Are your openings going to be used to sow corn and wheat and to make pasture for large animals?  That's what the European style of agriculture needed.

If you need to make small openings in the forest for a different style of agriculture, then that is much different than vast clearcutting that is done in slash and burn ag style.  But, you can get to the point where you have forest fragmentation where there isn't enough acreage to support certain ecosystems.  In effect, those that are left to hang on become more like zoos instead of wild areas.

If you're looking for money, then you're buying into a welfare system.  You will be totally dependent on those giving the handout.  And when that dries up, you will have little means to support yourself.  Self reliance is a trait of many North Americans.  Not so much the government as its people.

There are smart ways to accomplish good management and there are stupid ways.  Stupid is usually a lot easier and often much more profitable, in the short run.  Good foresters have an eye out for the long term. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline deutz4

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2009, 11:36:29 PM »
Good foresters have an eye out for the long term.

I've always enjoyed working with good foresters. I have worked with some that feel that by making the landowner the most money they are doing a good job. A good forester IMO almost ignores you as the landowner and me as the logger and acts as the intermediary for the forest in question. About 10 years ago we had a forester we trust mark a beautiful 80 acres of NHW. that we own ourselves. We as loggers know that it is a balancing act between profitability and good stewardship. We were a little upset the way he painted it but with our history I knew he was probably right. We decided to follow his plan. My only regret is that I didn't keep a photo history of the site. We are probably sitting on a property that has more veneer trees now than when we harvested it and it still has a balance of ash, beech, basswood and Hard Maple.
Over the years I've worked with a ton of foresters,Fed., State, and independent, and with very few exceptions they are very good people to work with.

Offline rebocardo

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 05:21:38 AM »
Well, the scheme part is right  :D

To put it simply, they want to replace the dollar as the current monetary means to transfer wealth between large corporations and countries (read the latest UN report?), by passing the USA. The way to do it is to devalue the dollar, then use "carbon credits" as a standard for money, while promoting socialism.

It really has nothing to do with your country, the intend is to turn Kenya into the "New Jerusalem" and to have a one world government. Really, they do not really give a squat about your country. It is all about MONEY and POWER.

The "New Jerusalem" is one reason the Green Party websites have as a platform an anti-Jewish tilt and statement. It is why all the UN "green" stuff is in Kenya. Which of course goes along with who George Soros is. Search for "carbon credits kenya 900,000". They really do not, imho, care about anything that actually happens in your country, they just care about the effect on Kenya.

> scheme where developed countries "pay" developing countries that abide the rules seem a fair deal.

When you have no industry, can't make products, can't make or have guns, have a weak army, and nothing to trade of real value,, then you can't defend yourself or object to anything "they" tell you to do, can you? Use your God given common sense and develop YOUR land God lets you borrow as YOU see fit.

Even though it is 70 years later with jets and missiles the norm, I bet, if Japan came with it's original 1940s Navy and Army, they could still run roughshod over your country, control it, and do it with a short war and minimal losses.

It is YOUR country, not the UN's, not the USA's, not Kenya's, not Soros, not Kyoto's, YOURS. Do with your natural resources as you see fit and tell everyone else to do soak their heads and provide for yourself instead of letting them turn you into a slave dependent on the largeness of others.  ;)

> speeding up the REDD process before its too late for humanity.

Anyone that wants to know the truth about this scheme, just search for "SABIC". I would explain further, but, I don't want the FF targeted.



Offline stumphugger

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 09:44:33 AM »
I recently attended a workshop on carbon credits.  I'm not too bright so I don't understand it all, but here's what was presented.
But it is hardly sinister or welfarish. 

First of all,  here in the state of Warshington, one needs to meet 4 criteria.  I'll now see if I remember. 
1.  Be a certified Tree Farm.
2.  Be a certified sustainable forest.
3.  Have a management plan.
4.  Oops, I think it is have 10 acres or more to enroll.

One still can harvest timber if it was presented to the carbon credit people at the outset.
The group here buys carbon credits from different forest owners and consolidates it.  Then sells the on the Chicago Carbon Exchange.  It works like the stock market.   Industries can then purchase the credits from the exchange.  Right now the market is pretty much worthless.  The presenter of the program was upfront about this.  He didn't pretend that things would get better either.  But it was presented as a way to perhaps earn some income on your forest while the lumber market was bad.  Except the carbon credit market is also bad.

The contract is for 3 years, and they will loan, with no interest, up to $2000 so you can pay for an inventory of your forest.  Everything 1.6 inches or bigger
 DBH is counted.  You cannot be paid for trees that are in areas that are not harvestable, like stream management areas.

And there's more but this screen is bouncing around and I can't type on it.



Offline stumphugger

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 09:49:16 AM »
If the lumber market zoomed up, you would not be able to harvest more than your baseline.  Baseline is something I did not quite understand.  You will have already planned what will be harvested in your management plan. 

It is pretty complicated.  The guy said he has no idea what the market will do.  One company in Oregon decided to retrofit their factory instead of buying into the carbon credits.  If industries decide to go that route, carbon credits will be a bad investment.

Each state seems to have their own version of this.  Hope this explains things  little bit more.

Offline rebocardo

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 10:34:45 AM »
> But it is hardly sinister or welfarish. 

Well, sorry to say, you do not even have a grasp on the subject what so ever then. I would explain further, but, a spider might catch it and the FF might be targeted. PM me your e-mail address and I will be happy to educate you, it will require a lot of reading.

I will not discuss it here, but, just ask yourself "From where does the money come for the carbon credits?".

Ask yourself, if business is really bad, does it make carbon credits look like a better alternative to logging?

> I recently attended a workshop on carbon credits.

If you could PM me the name of the company that ran it, I would appreciate it. Don't post it here.



Offline beenthere

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 10:51:20 AM »
stumphugger
Thanks for the info on the meeting you attended.

This, to me, is another veiled program (similar to forest certification) for Gov't to control the management (cutting trees) of private timber holdings. The payments for carbon credits will contain just a very small fraction for the landowner with the trees. All the hands-on in between will rake off their share for handling the deals going down.

It is a subtle move, but aimed at control.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline stumphugger

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 11:59:14 AM »
I disagree.  Frankly, I think it won't come to fruition.  But I'm usually wrong.  The only government participation is that of passing the cap and trade bill.  The carbon buying is private.  Stock market like.  But don't expect a bailout.

I don't own enough land.  But a friend who does puts it this way.  I'll  use the local example. 

"The Seattle people want us to not cut our timber.  Well, this is one way to make them pay for playing here and then developing their area."  Here in our state, Seattle has enough population to control the entire state when it comes to elections. 

One of the hurdles in this state is that forest practices rules frequently change.  So the carbon buying people will have to look into how that might affect their purchases. 

"The Government" already controls cutting of trees on private lands.  It is called a Forest Practices Act.  Warshington and Oregon both have such "controls."   Citing these controls to environmentalists can make for good discussion and sometimes change their minds on timber harvest being a bad thing.

A good thing is that this particular company only deals in 3 year contracts then the landowner either reups or drops out.  Not a very long time in terms of timber time investment.

 

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 05:42:37 PM »
The government comes in by capping the carbon emissions.  That's something that will probably swing between administrations.  But, the higher the cap, the more the credits will be worth.  But, you as a landowner, will not see that increase, unless you dabble in the market.

What would happen if this was considered to be kind of lucrative and the State of Washington or the State of Oregon decided to put their forestland into the carbon credit business.  Afterall, they could raise funds to help balance their budgets and they really wouldn't need to have those middlemen to put it on the market.  Governments are starving for sources of money.  Where do you think the private landowner is going to fit in?  At that point, the governments can control or steer the market.

I did look at a carbon brokerage outfit, and they stated that it had to be on trees that have been planted or regenerated since 1990. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline stumphugger

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 08:42:49 AM »
Well, if it was profitable, our state might do it.  The state forests are supposed to be managed for  the best return because our schools are partly funded by them.  Now we have a new public lands commissioner, who ran for office showing pictures of landslides and touting an environmental theme.  That is the reason why private landowners are nervous.  The state DNR is in charge of the permit system for logging private lands.

The rules of carbon credits vary.  Some Christmas tree people were at the session and found out that they could not participate.
Yet. 

It is so new that it seems like the carbon brokerage company doesn't have all the kinks figured out.

Offline Kodiakmac

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Re: REDD scheme
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2009, 03:17:33 PM »
This carbon credit/kyoto crap is the biggest scam that has ever been perpetrated on a gullible public. 

Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
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