Saw mill restoration

Carpenter · October 22, 2009, 01:38:03 AM

I have no idea what to expect from a flat belt driven saw mill yet. I have no experience with flat belt driven equipment at all. I have seen a flat belt driven pancake style shingle mill though, and it ran very smooth. My dad remembers some of the flat belt driven equipment being run but I am too young. I am not saying that I am dead set on this mill being flat belt driven, I am more concerned with quality lumber being produced than I am with historic recreation. But since the mill is already set up to run off a flat belt, and I have access to the tecnology to make a flat belt system possible, I would like to give it an honest try before converting to a PTO drive system. Thanks for the input guys, I can't wait to see what this mill does. I'll keep you posted.

bandmiller2 · October 22, 2009, 07:29:03 AM

Carpenter,I rebuilt the friction wheel on my mill.I used rubberized cotton flat belt,cut pieces ,sandwiched them togather and turned on a lathe ,sharp tool at high speed.You could probibly use leather or I've heard masonite discs put togather and turned works.Frank C.

Dakota · October 22, 2009, 08:51:10 AM

Carpenter,
I bought a few semi-truck mud flaps and used a circle cutter on my drill press to produce what we needed. Been working great for years now.

Dakota

bandmiller2 · October 23, 2009, 07:55:09 AM

Carpy, belt the old deere to your mill you always get some vibration with flat belts load on and load off.Thats what the big flywheel is for keep the rpm's up,pusing was always the boogie man promoted by the red fellas,sounds good in theory but practice tells outerwise.Frank C.

jdunmyer · November 01, 2009, 06:14:43 PM

FWIW: I first ran my mill with a J-D 'R' Diesel, not that long a belt, either. Didn't know I should worry about "pulsations", so didn't notice anything wrong. :D Changed to a PTO drive once I got the building erected, as I couldn't get the tractor lined up anymore, besides its being in the way. That worked OK, but was a PITA to operate and I couldn't get the engine warm, even with the shutters closed. (thermosyphon cooling system) Ended up with the Case engine that I have now, and it works fine.

More power is always good; the 'R' wasn't any extra.

I also ran a friend's half-scale mill with a J-D 'H' for power. I'd get that thing snorting, and again, didn't notice any pulsations. We did have to drive a stake in the ground behind it and use a come-a-long to get the belt tight enough that it didn't slip. In spite of the belt dressing that we used like it was free.

D._Frederick · November 05, 2009, 02:47:23 PM

Carpenter.
Our American No.2 had a cast drive pulley like you show in the picture and it didn't have any crown cast into it, you will need an idle pulley in front of it to steer the belt or it will run about half off the arbor pulley. The diameter of the pulley is too small to get good power transfer. With my Case LAE we had about a 10-12 inch diameter pulley with a 30 foot long belt. Regardless how tight the belt was, it never loaded the engine due to slippage.
If you really want to saw, you will need to use V-belts or a larger arbor pulley for use with a flat belt.

Carpenter · November 10, 2009, 11:18:15 PM

I finally got the carraige on the track this morning and it rolls!!!

I think it rolls very well I might add. I have not added up the hours that have gone into this mill to get it to this point but it really has been a lot of work. But, now I see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe I can be sawing before Christmas?
Here are a few more progress pictures.

I ended up using 2x8s to make the beams for the track. There are three of them per side with a 2x6 on top, all glued and screwed together. The foundation is 12" wide blocks, The load side is on 6' centers and the off load side is on 8' centers. Originally I laid it out at 4' centers but with the 12" blocks it didn't leave much room in between for sawdust removal and such. Thanks for the usefull advice on that.

bandmiller2 · November 12, 2009, 07:24:08 AM

Good work Carpy, you don't want to figure the hours you put into a mill it will scare you.I have seen several methods to add crown to a flat pulley,one is to rivet a strip of leather to the center anouther is a hump in the center using the old friction tape,it doesn't take much to center the belt.Of course you must align the tractor almost perfect thats why most use a dedicated tractor to avoid realigning.Being a left hand mill you could run from the tractor PTO and eliminate belts all togather.Blade must be tensioned for 540 rpm and you need ether a shear pin or slip clutch in the shaft.PTO shaft is good because it reduces the side tension on the arbor caused by the belts.Frank C.

Carpenter · November 13, 2009, 11:49:52 PM

All good comments and concerns. Actually this arbor pulley has a crown cast into it. And it measures 24" diameter, If there is any slipage I think it would be on the tractor end of the belt. I plan to add a tension pulley if needed. I would put a twist in the belt but I don't see that as a possibility without the tractor being in the way. I have been away for a few days but tomorrow I will start on the husk.

Don_Papenburg · November 16, 2009, 10:33:32 PM

I have been around belt driven equipment all my life . Never ran a job without a twisted belt . I asked my dad why he did not run the belt straight . He said that the twist kept the belt on the pully and eliminated the slapping that made the belt come off and put undue stress on bearings.

beenthere · November 16, 2009, 11:58:23 PM

Doesn't the twisted belt just change the direction of rotation?
I recall that was the reason we twisted it.

york · November 17, 2009, 06:28:02 AM

Carp,

you are doing one heck of a job,setting up your mill-much better setup,than i ever had...yes,putting twist in flat belt,will change direction...

Bert

Magicman · November 17, 2009, 07:22:18 AM

Quote from: Don_Papenburg on November 16, 2009, 10:33:32 PM
He said that the twist kept the belt on the pully and eliminated the slapping that made the belt come off and put undue stress on bearings.

If it was done to prevent slapping he could have made a full twist.

Carpenter · November 17, 2009, 11:03:09 PM

If it was done to prevent slapping he could have made a full twist.

I didn't even think of that as a possibility. I have heard to put a twist in the belt to prevent slapping but in this case it would either put the tractor in the way or run the wrong direction. I'll give the full twist a try. I had it pictured in my mind that it was either a half twist or no twist. Thanks.
It will still be cold before I get to mill some lumber. I planed to use some oak rail road ties that I have to set the husk on in place of the 4x12s that it is on now. It seemed like a good idea at the time. But because of the measurements of the ties 7x9 they just didn't work out mathematically. I probably spent 1/2 a day coming up with plans ABC and D trying to make those ties work, And by the time I decided that I really need the right size of lumber to make everything work, every place to get the lumber was closed for the weekend. Oh, well, I do have a supply for some duglas fir timbers the size I need (its just 60 miles away). Of course the local lumber yard does not carry anything 4x12. And because of the advice that I have gotten on this forum I would rather use solid beams for the husk rather than built up beams. It's sort of ironic that I need the sawmill running to get the sawmill running.

bandmiller2 · November 18, 2009, 06:47:00 AM

Well this old guy learned something today, never heard of a full twist on a flatbelt.There must be friction losses,heat and wear.Anyone that does it please comment.I use a half twist whenever I can for the above reasons. Carpy how are you planning to fasten the husk down, or are you tieing it to the way timbers, will work ether way, a flat belt will put considerable side strain on the husk.Your right its tricky to figure the hight of the husk and arbor to the carriage knees,thats why shims are a way of life around a mill. It would not hurt to have a solid adjustable link between the tractor and the husk to take some of the strain off the husk and aid adjustment.Frank C.

timberfaller390 · November 18, 2009, 08:49:00 AM

If you run a flat belt straight, which is the way it is "supposed" to be run you do get alot of poppin and jumping, dependiing on what you are running and what you are running it with. A hit and miss engine on a stalk chopper comes real close to throwing the belt everytime it hits but some how it doesn't. If you put a half twist in the belt you change directions of the equipment being powered so you need to move the tractor to the opposite side. If you do a full twist you will eliminate most of the slapping but you are also going to wear an expensive belt out very quickly. I wouldn't want to run a piece of equipment all day with a full twist. I don't see a problem running the mill with an "A". Those tractors run alot smoother at belt speed than at idle which is where they got Poppin' John from and they are alot smoother than a hit and miss. The power from a Deere is really not any more "pulsing than that from a one or two cylinder steam engine and we know those have done a good job sawing in the past.

beenthere · November 18, 2009, 10:00:08 AM

I too do not think a full twist is a good plan. Longer belts would be needed to get it done, over what is needed for a "no-twist" arrangement. But if trying a full twist, I'd be interested in how well it works. Just 'cause I've never heard of it, doesn't mean it isn't possible. ;D

I agree with timberfaller390 on the Deere A pulsing. But think some hop in the belt can come from getting a dull saw into a big log and not having the horsepower to keep the rpm up. But that will/can have other problems other than a slapping/hopping belt.

And I do recall it isn't a ~~good~~ smart idea to try to hop over a moving belt. Just leaning back on it a little bit will give you a pretty quick ride. Gets the older guys around you laughing at your ~~mistake~~ edumacation.

Jason · November 18, 2009, 02:11:18 PM

That looks great, I can't wait to see a video of it up and running ???;D

Magicman · November 18, 2009, 08:42:02 PM

I wouldn't put a full twist either. My statement was just an observation, that if you needed a twist and didn't want to change directions, that's the only way. Turning the tractor around with a 1/2 twist, if possible, would work.

Carpenter · November 18, 2009, 11:51:29 PM

Ok, so the full twist (which I didn't think was practical in the first place) is probably out. But, I might try it for a few minutes just to make sure. The half twist would really be impractical so it will probably be no twist with a tensioner pulley if nessessary.
I have to raise the husk 6" to match with the track. So, I plan to bolt a 6x12 to the 2x12 sill, and set the 4x12 frame for the husk on top of that probably with angle iron and lag bolts. It will make the height work out right, although I may need to build a platform for the sawyer to stand on. Seems absurdly high and the only thing I can think that I missed was to add for the 6x6 carraige that the headblocks sit on. Oh, well, a minor detail really, I hope.

bandmiller2 · November 19, 2009, 07:10:33 AM

So I quess the full twist flat belt is more a rural myth than actual practice.Carpy before you finalize your husk measurements I'd set and fasten down the headblocks on the carriage.I allow the bottom of the headblocks to pass about 1/2" over the loose collar and about 5/8" between the end of the headblock and the closest part of the saw,this is not cast in stone outhers will vary it a little.If your running a big headsaw ,or are not quite sure of the machinery you can run a little more.I usally run down to 1" last board and that 5/8 allows me to hold it,some always make the last cut at 2".As I've said before your left hand mill could be driven from the tractor PTO and eliminate belt all togather.A pto shaft off an old piece of farm machinery would work so long as it has either a slip clutch or a shear bolt.Frank C.

Carpenter · December 03, 2009, 12:22:44 AM

I have some good news and bad news. The good news is the restoration is coming along great. I don't have pics because I could not get them off the camera to the computer. Don't know why. Got the headblocks set and the husk built over Thanksgiving, and mouted the blade. It really looks like a saw mill now. I only have to rebuild the friction belts and hook up the drive train and a few other odds and ends and it will be done.
The bad news is that when I mounted the blade and spun it, it has a wobble in it. It is a little bit dished (I think for tension) but, from reading some of the past posts on blade tension, I think it is bent. It was stored in a shed leaning up against the wall. Can this be fixed? Does anybody know of a saw doc in Nebraska or southern South Dakota? I did an internet search for saw docs and got a lot of results of people who had gone to see the doctor but not any usefull information. Right now the blade has a quarter inch wobble and it is not in the spindle or the bearings. I would like to get the blade up to opperating rpm and see if the wobble comes out due to centrifical force, but with that much wobble, I am a little afraid to see what might happen.
Any information would be helpful. Thanks

timberfaller390 · December 03, 2009, 08:19:51 AM

there are a few saw docs in the northeast but don't know of any over your way. The blade will level out with centrificul force but I don't know if it would stay that way in the cut. More expierenced circle sawyers please step in here.

James P. · December 03, 2009, 08:53:14 AM

Hi carpenter great job on your mill. I would look at the collars and try putting a straight edge on the blade. Just to rule out bent. A dish in my opinion would be consistent. Try turning the blade 180 degrees without turning the arbor. Just like for finding the least amount of run out on a table blade. If it improves it then its in the collars. I think I got that right. download Lunstrums circular saw maintenance. if you already haven't. It will help with collar issues. saw doc Jeff has alot of good info too. sawdoc.com
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf

bandmiller2 · December 03, 2009, 08:36:35 PM

Carpenter,if there are any sawmills around you ask who pounds their saws.Really all saws turning slowly have some runout,you never really know until you bring them up to speed.Would be good form to have the saw tensioned to the speed your going to run,it would eliminate one of the variables on new mill startup.Frank C.