home-made hydraulics

Magicman · August 15, 2013, 06:04:01 PM

I am of no help with your question either, but Welcome to the Forestry Forum, JByrd.

hackberry jake · August 15, 2013, 06:58:13 PM

I built a modified piney turner. I wouldnt use on/off to controll the flow. Feathering the valve is extremely handy and often. Your pump should work just fine I would think.

pineywoods · August 15, 2013, 09:41:22 PM

Yeah, the pump should work fine if you use valves ported for double acting cylinders. I'd stay away from the electrically operated valves. Being able to feather the control valves makes for much better control. As I have stated before, this isn't just a "pull this lever and the log will roll over". there is a slight learning curve that once mastered allows you to do all sorts of useful things. I know the plumbing looks complicated, but it really isn't. MIne is mostly black iron pipe from the hardware store. Can't help with the brace. You might be able to mount the turner a foot or so either way, but it does need to be somewhere near the center of the length of the log.

thecfarm · August 15, 2013, 09:54:32 PM

JByrd,welcome to the forum. Been sawing long? Saw alot?

hackberry jake · August 15, 2013, 10:00:39 PM

Once I get a stack of boards laying on the bunks, I use the arm to pick up the stack and slide it over to the operator side of the mill so I dont have to reach across the mill to get to them.

JByrd · August 16, 2013, 09:03:02 AM

Thanks for the help so far. I have made a plywood mockup of the turner and am going out now to check clearances before I order cylinders.
I have been sawing a couple of years with my own machine, hired a guy with a hydraulic LT 30 a few times before that. I am doing "suburban forestry", cutting logs given to me by neighbors and tree trimmers. Mostly free, some poor quality, plenty of metal, but occasionally there is a jewel - I sawed one white oak that was over 3 ft diameter with 4 good logs.

grweldon · August 16, 2013, 09:44:29 AM

Quote from: JByrd on August 15, 2013, 05:25:54 PM
snip --- The present log turner uses a 12 VDC Haldex pump/reservoir unit. --- snip

Off topic, but I used to work for Haldex. I'd like to see that unit. I might have an application for something like that!

JByrd · August 20, 2013, 08:14:02 AM

GRWeldon, I took a picture of the Haldex unit.

I can't seem to get it to paste directly into the post, but it is in my gallery under JByrd. I looked on the web and found a similar unit is still sold.
I have modified the frame on the woodmizer and am making the other parts for the turner.

Ga Mtn Man · August 20, 2013, 08:19:21 AM

Quote from: JByrd on August 20, 2013, 08:14:02 AM
GRWeldon, I took a picture of the Haldex unit. I can't seem to get it to paste directly into the post, but it is in my gallery under JByrd. I looked on the web and found a similar unit is still sold.
I have modified the frame on the woodmizer and am making the other parts for the turner.

beenthere · August 20, 2013, 10:10:43 AM

JByrd
Good on the pic in your gallery. To get it in your post, when in your post then go to your pic and click on it (it will enlarge) and then SCROLL down below the pic to see the two different options (which is just another click) to paste it in your post.
The step that is easy to miss is "scrolling down".

pineywoods · August 20, 2013, 11:00:11 AM

Good start JBird. Hope it serves you as well as mine has.Only problem I have had with mine was a busted hose (don't use a power steering hose to feed a hydraulic cylinder) and brushes in the motor. Any particular reason you mounted the haldex under the mill ? Looks to me like it will get awfull dirty with bark and sawdust.

grweldon · August 20, 2013, 11:54:24 AM

That is a pretty sweet unit! I'm seeing that I can get something similar new for about $775. It will operate 2 cylinders independantly, but is only 1.8 GPM. That would probably be sufficient for the log loader (arm style) that I have in mind for my mill but it wouldn't be very quick. Even so, it would be quicker than the cable winch system I use to load logs. Furthermore, the existing 12V battery on the mill could be used, getting recharged by the engine magneto when milling. Looks like it might be possible to add a log loader for $1500-$2000 if I'm not mistaken...

grweldon · August 20, 2013, 01:03:04 PM

If anybody is interested, I've done a more precise ball-park for an arm-type loader retrofit for my mill, a TimberKing 1400.

$850 - 12VDC Electric Hydraulic unit (2-cyl independent, only need one circuit for arm cylinders, single can be had for about $600), shipped
$350 - Two welded 1.5" bore cylinders w/1" rod, SAE #4 outlet ports, 3000PSI max pressure, shipped
$150 - Battery and wiring for hyd. unit
$400 - 36" x 36" x 1" thk A36 steel plate - don't know exact arm size yet but assuming I can get two cut from this size
$200 - Cutting and machining (local machine shop)
$200 - two 12" long hoses, two 15" long hoses and two 24" long and two "T" fittings to hook up cylinders
$400 - Stick welder, welding rods and welding face mask.

Total $2550. If you had your own welder, $2150. With the exception of steel and machining costs, the figures are quite liberal and could be 10-20% less if you really searched for bargains or deals.

The battery could be mounted at the pump location eliminating wires running back to the rear of the mill. It would need to be recharged often but it could be done. If you run the wires, you can hook the battery up to the carriage just like when the cable winch is in operation, assuring full-charge operation.

The actuating switch is already wired in to the unit, much like the wired control on an ATV winch. There is a wireless remote option available for $150. I wouldn't have a problem with the wired remote. It could be semi-permanently mounted near the old winch.

I think it may be possible to get the 1" thick steel arms cheaper than what I have listed. Machine shops that have torch or plasma tables have material on stock that they can use for other jobs and could "nest" parts, only charging for the arms by the weight plus profit. You might even be able to buy a set of arms from TimberKing or Woodmizer cheaper than the $600 for material and machining I have listed.

I think this is doable. It would be nice to be able to offer a complete retrofit kit for manual mills. It would be possible to make a kit that would be bolt-on, but it would cost more due to the complexity of the bolt on pieces. Drilling of holes would then be all that would be required. I'll bet some members would love to have something like this!

JByrd · August 21, 2013, 07:53:21 AM

The log loader system was on the mill when I bought it. I believe it is the Woodmizer loader, but installed in the field -welding looks professional but not the same as factory, and they trimmed some spots on the frame for clearance with a torch.
There is a flat metal cover that goes completely over the hyrdraulic system and battery, so it stays clean and is totally out of the way.
I will take pictures of the loader and post them. I thought about building one before I bought this mill, but it is way more involved than the claw turner.
Piney, good point on the need to be able to feather the hydraulics. I am now thinking about mounting my hydraulic control valves next to the turner and using long rods and levers to put the control handles up next to the hitch. Anyone have experience with this?
I see the parts I need, at really excellent prices, on the Surplus Center web site. Have others found this to be a good source?
Gotta go slice a log with my other mill today,
Jim

pineywoods · August 21, 2013, 10:05:33 AM

re: surplus center..good folks. I have added hydraulics to 3 sawmills and a tractor, all with stuff from them. Never a problem. They have new control valves for junk prices. The last mill I did ran just under $1k for a turner, clamp, 1 toe roller, and powered backstops, using all new material and parts.

hackberry jake · August 21, 2013, 10:49:39 AM

This is a very good deal for a power pack. https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7549&catname=hydraulic It doesn't have a motor but that is actually a plus because they sell motor mounts and couplings for anything you would want to run. Some people will need a 12v dc motor, some people will need a gas motor, and some (like me) use a 120/240v ac motor.

grweldon · August 21, 2013, 12:42:10 PM

No, that's not bad for a pump and a reservoir and engine interface. I'd have to add the cost of an engine, valves and longer hoses but that would add much more verstility for further hydraulic additions. I'd still have to buy a welder to make a frame for the unit to attach to the mill. Overall it would most-likey be more costly but the ability to add valves and cylinders is a huge plus. Thanks for the link...

hackberry jake · August 21, 2013, 01:02:55 PM

Youre estimate on hoses is higher than surplus center as well

wwsjr · August 21, 2013, 01:32:33 PM

Pineywoods,
Do you think this would work on my LT40 Super? Got a call in to WM re requirements for GPM, and etc.

Jake,
What size electric motor would be required? I have 120, 220, and 3 phase available at my mill.

Willie

hackberry jake · August 21, 2013, 03:04:03 PM

For the powerpack I listed a 2hp electric motor will be plenty.

pineywoods · August 21, 2013, 03:50:56 PM

grweldon..I would stay away from the welded cylinders. Work ok, but they are not repairable. Surplus center has tie rod cylinders for about the same price and they stock repair kits if you ever need them.. 1.5 inch cylinders ain't gonna hack it for a loader. Get 3 inch...Logs are heavy and the cylinders on a loader are working with about a 3 to 1 disadvantage..

Motor size... Anything that will turn the shaft on a pump will work, it's a matter of how much oil you want to pump and how fast. A 3 or 4 gpm pump is plenty if you can turn it 3500 rpm, but you need at least 3 hp to do that satisfactorily. My mill has 1 hp 1700 rpm motor drivng a 3 gpm pump. Works but it's a little slow...

grweldon · August 22, 2013, 08:28:03 AM

Piney,

Are you sure 1.5 pistons won't be sufficient for two cylinders? My mill only has a 5000 lb. capacity. My calculations show that two 1.5" cylinders will push about 7000 lbs at 2000 PSI. Actuation speed is acceptable with 1.8GPM.

I didn't notice that tie rod cylinders were the same at Surplus Center. They seemed to be about 50% more but I didn't really look hard.

hackberry jake · August 22, 2013, 11:41:20 AM

Quote from: grweldon on August 22, 2013, 08:28:03 AM
Piney,

Are you sure 1.5 pistons won't be sufficient for two cylinders? My mill only has a 5000 lb. capacity. My calculations show that two 1.5" cylinders will push about 7000 lbs at 2000 PSI. Actuation speed is acceptable with 1.8GPM.

I didn't notice that tie rod cylinders were the same at Surplus Center. They seemed to be about 50% more but I didn't really look hard.

How long of cylinders do you need?

Larry · August 22, 2013, 01:33:47 PM

Quote from: wwsjr on August 21, 2013, 01:32:33 PM
Jake,
What size electric motor would be required? I have 120, 220, and 3 phase available at my mill.

Willie

Most definity get a 3 phase motor. Cheaper to buy, and much more dependable because it doesn't have pesky capacitors or a centrifugal switch that plague single phase motors.