making money the thin kerf way ?

[paul case]

i am curious about charging by the board foot . a 2x6 is actually 5 1/2'' x 1 1/2''.  when you charge by the board foot is a 2x6 a bd ft. per lin ft? i have been charged this way and i charge this way but i was wondering if this is standard? 
what about log scales? i bought a doyle scale because thats what the pallet mill i used to sell logs to uses. my bandmill cuts 1/4 to 1/3 more bd ft than this scale.good deal for the log buyer i guess, does any else experience this???   pc

[brdmkr]

Paul,

A bdft is 1 foot x 1 foot x 1  inch.  So a 2 x 6 that is one foot long would be a board foot.  Some sawyers charge by the literal board foot and others would charge for a board foot for the nominal measure of 1.5" x 5.5". 

Regarding log scales, the Doyle scale penalizes small logs.  A small log will generally have very low bdft estimate using Doyle.  In contrast, really large logs may actually provide lumber yields that are not that much greater than the Doyle estimate.  So, if logs are on the smaller size, the Doyle estimate will be low relative to what can be sawn and the log buyer may do a little better.  This would diminish as log size increases when using Doyle.

[Tom]

Yes, it just so happens that a 2x6 has the same number of board feet as its length.

I sawed for many years and charged by the board foot.  Width in inches x height in inches x length in feet and divide the whole mess by 12 will give you board footage of a stick, a stack or a room full, if you account for air space.  I usually would round down for lengths and use nominal figures for H and W.  Board foot is a volume measure for measureing rough lumber only.

There are grading rules that complicate the computation of Board feet, and I know of a fellow that is a real stickler for it, but I'm not selling wood, I'm counting what I sawed and it's between me and the customer.

The international scale comes the closest to matching thin kerf sawmill production. But, I don't scale logs unless I absolutely have to do it.  I would saw the customer's lumber and we would count up the "chargable" results at the end of the day.  No muss, no fuss and we both would be happy.  That gives you the chance to apply some generosity, if you so desire, as well.

Welcome Paul

[Magicman]

Virtually 100% of the framing lumber that I saw is sawed to "dimension" sizes (1.5X3.5, 1.5X5.5, etc.) plus shrinkage.  A 2X4-8 scales 5.3BF and that's what I charge for.  Most "flat" lumber is sawed 1"X6" etc. actual size. 

Sawing/using actual 2"X4", etc. serves no purpose IMO.  You have to buy larger/longer nails and if you run out of lumber, "store bought" lumber doesn't fit.  I highly discourage it's use, and the customer always appreciates being told what his options are.  They always choose "dimension".

[paul case]

you all
i always charge gor lumber and sawingby the board ft of what the dimmension should be except when i cut with the bark on the sides or very odd shaped pieces that take a long time to setup for.the only time i use the doyle scale is if im buying logs. t seems fair . i do get more lumber than the scale but the logs here in our area are notorious for holes and bad spts in them that cannot be seen till sawn. that scale is the on most sawmills in my area use.on logs up to 235 scaled brd ft i made as much as295 brd ft on 12 ft logs.    just my luck more than i paid for but the ones with defects make up for it      pc

[backwoods sawyer]

I must be the odd ball here, because as my company name states I "CUSTOM" saw so I charge only for what I saw. A 1.5 x 5.5 is not a 2 x 6 to me, but a full 2 x 6 is. I let the lumberyards and box store charge for more then they are selling, (they have the Lawyers). If the customer wants a ¾" thick board he is charged for a ¾" thick board, and if he wants 1 1/8" he is charged for 1 1/8".

[beenthere]

As long as you are making money. What you charge for a bd ft. (whatever it is, however it is measured) will determine the profit, if any.  ;D

[John Bartley]

It's just easier to saw whatever dimensions the customer wants, charge by the hour (+ damaged bands), and let the customer worry about what a "board foot" is. I know what a board foot is for me (144 cu.in.), but I don't care to argue about it with the customer. Charging by the hour and giving the customer the dimensions they ask for is just easier....

cheers

John

[woodmills1]

charge by the hour and give the first band for free.

[Tom]

There is nothing wrong with charging by the hour if you like living on a salary.

You will soon realize that  the production off of an LT15 is a bit less than off of a Baker 3638.  There is also a bit of a difference in the amount of lumber one year of experience creates as opposed to ten years.

If you charge by the hour, would you compete with the larger machine and more experienced sawyer?
If you are the more experienced sawyer, how do you justify competeing with the lessor experienced one.

I think you will find that, in the end, even the hourly charge is based on board footage, not making a living salary.

[paul case]

is there anyone of youall that buys logs? i would be interested what scale you use.i said before that i buy some now and then and use the doyle scale. today i picked up a log to saw for a lady . she wanted to know how much it would cost up front. i scaled the log and it read 160 so i told her 200 or more and we actually got 235. i was told that this scale allows for a 3/8 kerf. is this true?  just wonderin   pc

[aksawyer]

Here in Fairbanks most all people prefer what you are calling "flat sawn".We call it full demention.Our customers like getting full boards for full price and they prefer having more wood to nail into.Dont saw just to match what home depot or the local lowes sales just because we ran out of wood.Everytime you go there your dollar is worth less.Aksawyer.....-20 by monday.

[Brucer]

There's two kinds of definitions: technical definitions and operational definitions.

Technical definitions say what something is. For example, a board foot measures 1" x 12" x 12", or an equivalent volume of wood.

Operational definitions say how you go about measuring something. In Canada, softwood lumber is measured (by law) by it's nominal dimension to the nearest inch and by it's length rounded down to the nearest foot. The operational definition also says that a board foot for anything under 1" thick is the nominal width multiplied by the length.

So a "store-size" 2x6 measuring 1-1/2" x 5-1/2" and 8'-1" long is calculated as (2 x 6 x 8 )/12 = 8 BF. The tongue and grove cedar on my ceilings measures 3/8" thick by 3-1/4" wide, but is calculated as 4"/12" = 1/3 BF per foot of length. I didn't know about operational definitions when I bought it and was sure I was getting ripped off.

If we didn't have operational definitions, we'd never agree on anything. The outcomes of US (and Canadian) elections are determined by operational definitions. Census results are determined by operational definitions. Tax deductions for depreciation are determined by operational definitions.

[Kansas]

When we are selling lumber we sell by actual volume, although much of what we cut is "lumberyard size". We sell a lot of trailer decks. Many times a customer will call up and want to know what the board foot price is. That takes a little explaining to do, and I have found that I'm better off to get the size of the trailer and price it that way. I can also then lay out other options including thickness, with the different prices. I have also had people call for lumber for repairing or building barns, etc. They say they want full demention lumber, but when you price both that and nominal, more often than not they go with nominal. They don't realize how much more lumber is in full size. Once had a lumber broker who couldn't understand why I could not cut a full 2 inch thick pallet runner for the same price as a standard one. I had to work him through the math. Then he turned around and found a mill that would actually do it for the same price. Either they didn't understand the difference, or they were a lot hungrier than I was.
We use doyle scale around here on everything except for cedar. That is how logs are bought and sold in this area.

[paul case]

KS,
the doyle scale is the one used by the large mills in my area also. i use it if im buying because it gives me a little room for imperfections in the log that cant be seem unitil inside with the saw. what method do you use when buying cedar? i have traded for some cedar but only 1 log for sawing 1 log. what is cedar lumber worth in your area?      pc

[moonhill]

I use the International rule, some use the Bangor rule. 

For rough cut stock 1.5x5.5 x length ÷ by 12=board footage, no other way to look at it, otherwise someone is loosing, so be honest and fair.  Now if you were to mill/machine the rough cut 1.75 x 6 to a tongue and grove decking product my all means charge for the rough dimension, the grey area would be the .25 inches I would round it up to the full two for simplicity.

Tom is right on with the hour vs board foot dilemma, again, or we would all be sawing with home made saws with little electric motors on them propelled by log and pulley systems, measuring progress in feet/minute.   If you were sawing something truly custom by the hour would be the way to go.  As an example cutting 4" cedar planks then making a curved jig in which you fix the saw in the middle and hand push the bolts through to produce a curved piece than by all means charge by the hour.     

Tim   

[Kansas]

Paul
The cedar scale we have is close to the international scale. Its a lot friendlier to the smaller logs. I will look at it when I get over to work.
I thought Cedarman, or someone, had once posted a cedar scale on here, but I can't find it in the archives.

[LeeB]

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,2645.msg35059.html#msg35059

Try here.

[Tom]

Brucer said:

There's two kinds of definitions: technical definitions and operational definitions.

Rough cut 1x material is 1" - 1 1/8", or whatever the customer and you agree.  It is still considered 4 quarter material right up until it reaches 1 1/4"  material. Then it becomes 5 quarter.

So, there is a way to legitimately sell sizes, close to dressed, by using the quarter scale.  Talking about softwood construction, dimensional lumber here.

Just cut and sell the 2x's as 6 quarter.  The widths are on 2" centers but you will come closer to dressed if you put the blade on the board side (use the real inch scale).  What it really boils down to is that it is between you and customer as to what works.  When you are selling wholesale or to an unknown, especially when shipping the wood sight-unseen, You need to know the rules.

Dressed lumberyard lumber is not measured in Board feet using the dressed sizes.  Board foot is, at best, a volume measure of rough cut lumber.  Rough cut lumber is large enough that the dressing customer can get dressed sizes from it when he runs it through a planer.

Cutting dressed sizes on a sawmill can not be done as accurately as a planer.  You have miscuts, wandering blades, tooth marks, and different shrinkage depending on the orientation of the grain from piece to piece.

The only way to get dressed sizes, accurately, is to stick all of the sticks through the same hole.  Customers don't understand the diminished size of 1 1/2 being a 2x so most lumberyards switch to linear measurement.  If you aren't paying for the extra wood, you are paying for the machining.

It's is best to talk to customers about your trying to get as close to dressed sizes as you can, rather than bringing the board foot measurement into it.  Personally, I try to stay away from cutting dressed sizes. You can't rely on the outcome and there is no relationship, thickness to width, that relates to turning a cant and busting up a log as well as working in full inches.  Even then, you generally have to use a bit of kentucky windage. 

If a customer understands and still wants to be charged 2" for an 1 1/2" board, do it. ;D

[Magicman]

For rough cut stock 1.5x5.5 x length ÷ by 12=board footage, no other way to look at it, otherwise someone is loosing, so be honest and fair.

Tim  

There is nothing dishonest about the charging method that I use when sawing dimension sized lumber.  It is all described in the contract that both the customer and I review and sign before beginning the job.

If a customer understands and still wants to be charged 2" for an 1 1/2" board, do it. ;D

[Chuck White]

There are sawyers around here who establish "their" minimum cut!

That is, if their minimum cut (thickness) is 1", then even if they saw ½" boards for a customer, the customer is still charged for 1"!

Things like this "must" be explained to the customer prior to sawing anything!

_______________________________


I have sawn 6/4X4X8 for a couple of customers and informed them that the charge would be the same as for a 2X4X8.

They said that was not a problem.

We both need to be on the same page before sawing!

[Magicman]

Yup,  I call it the "dog" board.  It's always 1+ inches thick.  If I'm cutting 1/2" lumber, the dog board will be 1".  BTW, that 1/2" lumber will be scaled/billed as 1".  It's covered in the contract.  Never a problem.

[paul case]

same way at the case farms mill. 1 '' is the minimun size. always explained never left understood. guessin that someone understands will cause problems.  have had no one in 2 years of sellin and custom sawing that i wasnt able to make a agreementwith.    i still believe even in these tough times owning a sawmill and sawin my logs and custom sawin for others pays well. jobs may not be regular but im makin more than i was selling logs and most folks who use my ruff cut lumber are a pleasure to deal with.      pc

[DR Buck]

I use the International scale if the customer wants an estimate of what it might cost.   

When I saw its L x W x H in inches ÷ 144 x bf rate for the finished pile of lumber.   That keeps it simple for the customer and me.  I've never had it questioned or disputed.

[paul case]

a customer brought me some logs to make full 2x12's - 16' for trailer floor. heres one log.



and heres the middle sawn up.


the log scaled 255.
made 8- 2x12's and 9 1x6's all 16'
thats 328 bd ft.
took about 1 hour to saw and pays $98.
1 happy customer and 1 happy sawyer.  pc

[captain_crunch]

Full demention rough sawn lumber is my only selling point 1X12 is full inch by 12" as well as wiered dementions cut 12 -1 1/4X 6 1/2 for a fellow to match his sheathing boards from old shop to new one. Just wished I knew how to price the sawing cant charge by hr beings I may have to chase cows out of mill once or twice and I can't compete with big boys who live on over run as per what you can recover out a 40 ft log(the only length that brought any money) beings they will ony pay 125.00 per thousand under 20 ft compared to 550.00 fer 40's and the reason why is very little over run in short logs so I saw the short ones

[jimparamedic]

1" and under is still an 1"  1.5" and over is 2" works good for me because it costs the same every time the saw goes through the log.

[captain_crunch]

Really sawing by the linear ft would be the best way if you are cutting someone elses trees. Fourms tool computes 1.25 boards as well as 1.50 so I just use it on lumber cut from My trees

[Ron Wenrich]

1" and under is still an 1"  1.5" and over is 2" works good for me because it costs the same every time the saw goes through the log.

But, doesn't it take the same amount of time to cut the 2" way as the 1" way?  Sounds like you're charging double for making the same cut in, but pulling more wood on the 2".  Just saying.

[Chuck White]

Sometimes you have to figure in the handling when it comes to 2" vs 1".

A 2x6 is twice the weight as a 1x6.

Same as the extra handling when making 4 cuts to saw out an 8x8 beam, the length of your mill.

Doing that, the cuts are relatively cheap, then comes the issue of the extra handling.

[Ron Wenrich]

Using that argument means I should charge more for cutting 1" oak than 2" aspen.  Pine 8x8 would be cheaper priced than 8x8 oak. 

[paul case]

i wonder how the lumberyard prices their lumber. i promise an oak 8x8 would be much higher than a pine 8x8 in any lumberyard.  you may say we are not in competition with them but us small custom mills are. if my trailer flooring was much higher than treated lumber at the box store, i would loose quite alot of customers.pc

[r.man]

If a customer wanted all long and large and extra help or machinery was needed then a extra charge would be levied. Oak vs pine might not incur an extra charge but that is probably because your charge rate is averaged between easy and difficult, hard and soft. If two customers wanted all their cutting at the opposite ends of the scale then the easier of the two should probably get a break. That means the harder of the two should pay more. If life was fair. Which it isn't.

[Ron Wenrich]

i wonder how the lumberyard prices their lumber. i promise an oak 8x8 would be much higher than a pine 8x8 in any lumberyard.  you may say we are not in competition with them but us small custom mills are. if my trailer flooring was much higher than treated lumber at the box store, i would loose quite alot of customers.pc

But, aren't you talking about sawing costs?  Oak is higher than pine because the base value of the log is higher.  Same goes for the lumber.  The base is higher, so they charge more. 

[ely]

i get .25 cents bdft for sawing the customers logs into lumber, no matter what diminsion they request.
if someone is wanting their logs sawn out into large beams or whatever, then we will come to an agreeable price before i saw.( meaning i do not charge someone by the board ft when sawing the large beams out.)

[Magicman]

Some sawyers here charge more for sawing 1" vs 2".  My charges are "across the board".  Same price for sawing lumber, no matter what dimension.  I scale each board.  1" or less = 1".  1"-2" = 2", etc.  Cants and beams are sawed hourly rate.

I use a Saw Contract and each item is discussed prior to sawing.  I have never had a charging/billing issue.

[captain_crunch]

Magicman
I agree with you Same amount of fuel and time no mater thichness. I saw 1 in min so anything I goof and make under 1" is a freebee in my book. But I got to get smarter and quit ending up with a 2X3 dog board : : So far not much market fer that demintion ??? ??? ???

[Magicman]

Since you run a circle mill, I have no answer for your dog board thickness.

With a band mill, if you start at the right place, the dog board will be the same thickness as the rest.  I use a "Cheat Sheet" which list my starting points, but the newer computers eliminate this need.  I think they are the ones cheating.   ;)

[metalspinner]

From the point of view of the customer, I can't understand getting charged extra 1/4's for wood not in the board.  If I wanted walnut logs sawn at 6/4 would I be charged for 8/4?  Why would different math be used in "framing" lumber?  Often we use yellow poplar up here for framing so should the softwood scales, ideas, whatever's apply to poplar "framing" lumber?

At the end of the day having material custom sawn for me is a very cost effective way towards a large pile of material.  So certain "upcharges" can be added to a bill for a man to stay in business and is understandable.  But paying for extra wood not in an actual board would be a tough pill to swallow.  Those extra 1/4's can add up to an extra board in the cant.  Thereby adding more $$ to the bill (overrun) for the sawyer.

All that being said, quality, attitude, and professionalism can more than make up for fuzzy math come billing time. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Since you run a circle mill, I have no answer for your dog board thickness.

With a band mill, if you start at the right place, the dog board will be the same thickness as the rest.  I use a "Cheat Sheet" which list my starting points, but the newer computers eliminate this need.  I think they are the ones cheating.   ;)

The same works for circle mills.  I've heard it called inside out sawing.  You simply start with a target size and build a stack with board thicknesses and kerf allowance.  The tricky part comes when you want to saw multiple thicknesses.  I'll often have to saw 5/4 in F1F and btr, and 4/4 in the lower grades.  You have to learn how to read a log.  And sometimes you end up with a shim cut.

[paul case]

mm ,
for us guys without a computer we just have to do a lot of figuring or writing it down when we get to the ''cant'' cuts. if you can remember you are dong well. if a pencil is handy i write it down on the blade guard rite in front of me . i am half your age and i cant remember.

metalspinner,
as far as being charged for a2'' board and recieving a 1.5'' board, people do this every time they buy lumber in the store. they call them 2x4 s and they are1.5''x3.5''. this is why we always charge 1'' and down as 1'' and 1'' to 2'' as 2''. this means that 6/4 is charged as 2'' .pc

[metalspinner]

as far as being charged for a2'' board and recieving a 1.5'' board, people do this every time they buy lumber in the store. they call them 2x4 s and they are1.5''x3.5''. this is why we always charge 1'' and down as 1'' and 1'' to 2'' as 2''. this means that 6/4 is charged as 2'' .pc

There are a couple of difference, though.  The material at the big box is finished, not roughsawn.  It's also KD.  And I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of acquiring logs, labor, stacking, paying sawyers, building code questions, etc, etc.  One isle over from the framing lumber are the hardwood stacks where they are charging $10+ BF for flatsawn redoak.  Are you charging the same for that product?

I am an enlightened woodworker that sees all the advantages of hiring custom cutters to saw my own logs.  Some of which are quality of product, supporting local business, developing relationships, going green, blah, blah, blah.  Not to mention it's downright fun!   

These questions I bring up are not to be argumentative. I'm just digging a little deeper for a better understanding.  It is my hope to someday own a mill, so all of this will be filed away in my memory for further discussion and developement.  It is wise to keep the customer's point of view in mind when making your business policies. Does the value of the end product make sense for a continuing relationship? If you and your customers are in agreement on the terms and conditions, that is the most important thing.

[Magicman]

Chris, I made a broad statement and for simplicity sake lumped flat sawed and framing lumber together.  I really shouldn't have.

For flat sawed lumber, I scale exactly as you stated.  For dimensional framing lumber I scale as I stated above.  No, it's not planed and KD'ed, but it isn't "Box Store" price either.  I scale a 1.5"X3.5" as a 2X4.  5.3 board feet.  My saw price is about 1/3 of what store price is.

Bottom line, if I provide quality lumber and the customer and I both understand the cost and are satisfied, all is OK.

[Chico]

Cost s more to cut a thousand foot of 4/4 than it does a thousand ft of 8/4 or timbers should have a pay scale for each  jmo and as far a lumber measurement it's an accepted practice on dressed lumber the plus is a much more uniform pc of lbr vs roughcut and yes roughcut can be very close but not as close as a planer set up correctly

[backwoods sawyer]

 I measure the whole stacks at the end of the day rather the pieces x length x thickness ect. I also charge the same for a beam as I would for a stack of thinner boards that totals the same board footage. If my hourly rate total is less then the bft total, I charge the lesser of the two. However, for hardwoods it is hourly as is handling over sized logs.